Sola Scriptura

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Zao is life

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Still no scripture.
Your challenge is to prove Sola Scriptura from scripture not from your opinions.
If you cannot provide any scripture than please don't waste my time.
He provided scripture, which you conveniently flatly ignored while continuing to accuse him of providing no scripture.

I just started reading this thread. It's going to an interesting read, watching you make yourself and the claims of the RCC look ridiculous. Your only resource is your ability to attempt to bully and falsely accuse others into submission. Totally un-Christian.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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No new High Priest ( the authority to speak for God) as Jesus IS the only one.

Actually no. The office of HP was of the Levites as they were the only ones who could go into the "holy of Holies" in the presence of God. There were many.

Jesus was the "last" as from Him forward "we" could access God with no more intermediaries
 

Zao is life

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You have given not a single scripture or scripture reference to anything.
Your challenge is to prove Sola Scriptura from scripture not from your opinions.
If you cannot provide any scripture than please don't waste my time.
OMW he provided scripture. You're making yourself look ridiculous in this thread already. And I'm only on its first page!!!
 

Zao is life

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Actually no. The office of HP was of the Levites as they were the only ones who could go into the "holy of Holies" in the presence of God. There were many.

Jesus was the "last" as from Him forward "we" could access God with no more intermediaries
Hebrews 7
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him.

20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for those priests were made without an oath, but this one was made with an oath by Him who said to Him, "The Lord swore and will not repent, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek,")
22 by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not allowed to continue because of death;
24 but He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens,
27 who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men high priests who have infirmity, but the word of the swearing of an oath, after the Law, has consecrated the Son forever, having been perfected.

Hebrews 8

1 Now the sum of the things which we have spoken is this: We have such a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One have something to offer also.
4 For if indeed He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the Law,
5 who serve the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was warned of God when he was about to make the tabernacle. For, He says "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown to you in the mountain."
 

Zao is life

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Ignoring your anti-Catholic rhetoric you agreed that Sola Scriptura, as specified in the OP, is a false man made doctrine.
Excellent. We agree for once.
He never said that. False accusation again. Read again what he said. He said scripture is inspired by God and is man's only authority on all matters relating to God and His Son, Jesus Christ.
 

Zao is life

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We are told that the Bereans were more noble-minded (open-minded, better disposed, fair)—but more noble-minded than whom? The Thessalonians! It is convenient for Fundamentalists to pull this passage out of context and force it to stand alone. That way their case seems convincing, but the context tells the real story. Before we look at the Bereans, let’s take a look at those they are compared to, the Thessalonians. What did the Thessalonians do that made them less noble-minded?

We find out in Acts 17:1–9: "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.’ And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. But the Jews were jealous, and, taking some wicked fellows of the rabble, they gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the people. And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brethren before the city authorities, crying, ‘These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.’ And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard this. And when they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go."

The Thessalonians rejected Paul and his message, and, after denouncing him, they became jealous that others believed. They treated Paul with contempt and violence, throwing him ignominiously out of town. Why? "For three weeks he [Paul] reasoned with them from the Scriptures" in the synagogue, as was his custom. They did not revile Paul the first week or the second; rather, they listened and discussed. But ultimately they rejected what he had to say. They compared Paul’s message to the Old Testament and decided that Paul was wrong. We must remember that many were proclaiming a wide variety of new teachings, all supposedly based on the Scriptures and revelations from God. Heresies, cults, and sects were as numerous in the Roman Empire as they are today. The Jews in Thessalonica had a right to be skeptical.

Now let’s look at Luke’s comment about the noble-minded Bereans: "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men" (Acts 17:10–12).

When Protestants use this passage as a proof text for the doctrine of sola scriptura, they should realize that those in question were not Christians; they were Hellenistic Jews. There was no doctrine of sola scriptura within Jewish communities, but the Scriptures were held as sacred. Although the Jews are frequently referred to as "the people of the book," in reality they had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their Scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the "seat of Moses" in the synagogues (Matt. 23:2). The Jews had no reason to accept Paul’s teaching as "divinely inspired," since they had just met him. When new teachings sprang up that claimed to be a development of Judaism, the rabbis researched to see if they could be verified from the Torah.

If one of the two groups could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the "dogs," not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was "unbiblical."

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they "received the word with all eagerness." Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were "noble-minded" not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, "The Acts of the Apostles" in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a "tradition," it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an "extension" of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the "other Scriptures," which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

Steve Ray (WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA)
I was wondering when you were going to pull out a "copy in order to paste" post out of your (or "the offical"?) electronic cabinet.

RCC Modus Operandi: When someone says this, copy 'n paste this post". NB: Make sure all the posts are long, long posts so that you distract attention away from your fallacies by making people address the long list of falsehoods contained in the long, long "copy 'n paste" posts.
 
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Zao is life

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Wrong. Nothing become scripture until it is written down.
What about that which God reveals that is not written down?
If God reveals something that is not written down it is still God's words.
And who decides what of that which is written are the revealed words of God.?
The only authority of Christians besides holy writ is the Holy Spirit, who is the One who guides into all truth. Is the Pope the Holy Spirit?

We have one High Priest only (Hebrews chapters 7 and 8), and He has appointed each and every one who believes in Him, who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and who accepts the authority of the Holy writ, "priests of God" (Revelation 1:6).

When we say "Sola Scriptura" we are simply taking Christ's authority out of the hands of those who thought to steal it and placing His authority back in His hands only.
 

Mungo

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The Catholic encyclopedia isn't official source material for Catholic faith and practise? Even with the imprimatur of the Vatican? And a "Converts Catechism to the Catholic Doctrine" by a Redemptorist Father is unreliable and not a source to be trusted? And then you quote so called church fathers as a source for justifying the change to a Commandment of God,?????

Spare me your faux outrage. It doesn't impress me.

1. No, the Catholic Encyclopaedia is not an official source and it does not have an imprimatur from the Vatican.

2. I didn't say that either source was unreliable and not to be trusted. I said it was preferable to use official sources. However quotes from old books (such as the The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine are not to be trusted unless they can be verified. Sometimes Catholic apologists have taken a lot of trouble to track down such quotes and found them to be fabricated, or paraphrases, or carefully edited, or taken out of context.

Take the one from The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine.
The one you quoted said "Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."

Another site said "Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”
Vatican Declares: The Catholic Church Is Above The Bible

All the other anti-Catholic sites I have found give the shorter version.
So which is it? Is either true?

Well I found what purports to be a version of the book here: The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine : Father Peter Geiermann, C.Ss.R. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. It actually says:
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the
Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336),
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

And this appears on page 65 not page 50.

Does this matter?

Yes it does because the longer version is blatantly incorrect. The Council of Laodicia was a local synod attended by about 30 clerics from Asia Minor. It dealt with some local difficulties (in this case Judaising). It was not a general Church council. It was not, and could not, make new laws for the Church. So the statement in the Convert's Catechism is false. But by removing the part about Laodicea it makes it less obvious that it is false.

Regarding the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, I would also dispute the accuracy of that. It says "The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians."
It doesn't quite say that.
The original is of course in Latin but here is a translation of Canon xix from this site:
CT06

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema. (my emboldening)
How accurate a translation that is I can't say. I've looked at other sites but they seem to use the same translation.

That word nowise is very important. It implies that there are ways that the Ten Commandments do apply to Christians and there are ways that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians. Not quite what the Catholic Encyclopedia stated

What that difference is the Council does not seem to have specified. The Catechism of the Council Of Trent does, but this post is long enough already.
 

Mungo

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He provided scripture, which you conveniently flatly ignored while continuing to accuse him of providing no scripture.

I just started reading this thread. It's going to an interesting read, watching you make yourself and the claims of the RCC look ridiculous. Your only resource is your ability to attempt to bully and falsely accuse others into submission. Totally un-Christian.

OMW he provided scripture. You're making yourself look ridiculous in this thread already. And I'm only on its first page!!!

He never said that. False accusation again. Read again what he said. He said scripture is inspired by God and is man's only authority on all matters relating to God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

I was wondering when you were going to pull out a "copy in order to paste" post out of your (or "the offical"?) electronic cabinet.

RCC Modus Operandi: When someone says this, copy 'n paste this post". NB: Make sure all the posts are long, long posts so that you distract attention away from your fallacies by making people address the long list of falsehoods contained in the long, long "copy 'n paste" posts.

The only authority of Christians besides holy writ is the Holy Spirit, who is the One who guides into all truth. Is the Pope the Holy Spirit?

We have one High Priest only (Hebrews chapters 7 and 8), and He has appointed each and every one who believes in Him, who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and who accepts the authority of the Holy writ, "priests of God" (Revelation 1:6).

When we say "Sola Scriptura" we are simply taking Christ's authority out of the hands of those who thought to steal it and placing His authority back in His hands only.

Another person who thinks their opinions are evidence enough, rather than providing evidence to back them up.
Don't waste my time.
 

Brakelite

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Spare me your faux outrage. It doesn't impress me.

1. No, the Catholic Encyclopaedia is not an official source and it does not have an imprimatur from the Vatican.

2. I didn't say that either source was unreliable and not to be trusted. I said it was preferable to use official sources. However quotes from old books (such as the The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine are not to be trusted unless they can be verified. Sometimes Catholic apologists have taken a lot of trouble to track down such quotes and found them to be fabricated, or paraphrases, or carefully edited, or taken out of context.

Take the one from The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine.
The one you quoted said "Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."

Another site said "Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”
Vatican Declares: The Catholic Church Is Above The Bible

All the other anti-Catholic sites I have found give the shorter version.
So which is it? Is either true?

Well I found what purports to be a version of the book here: The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine : Father Peter Geiermann, C.Ss.R. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. It actually says:
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the
Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336),
transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

And this appears on page 65 not page 50.

Does this matter?

Yes it does because the longer version is blatantly incorrect. The Council of Laodicia was a local synod attended by about 30 clerics from Asia Minor. It dealt with some local difficulties (in this case Judaising). It was not a general Church council. It was not, and could not, make new laws for the Church. So the statement in the Convert's Catechism is false. But by removing the part about Laodicea it makes it less obvious that it is false.

Regarding the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, I would also dispute the accuracy of that. It says "The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians."
It doesn't quite say that.
The original is of course in Latin but here is a translation of Canon xix from this site:
CT06

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema. (my emboldening)
How accurate a translation that is I can't say. I've looked at other sites but they seem to use the same translation.

That word nowise is very important. It implies that there are ways that the Ten Commandments do apply to Christians and there are ways that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians. Not quite what the Catholic Encyclopedia stated

What that difference is the Council does not seem to have specified. The Catechism of the Council Of Trent does, but this post is long enough already.
Great detailed response. But it doesn't actually change anything. The Catholic Church, exercising her perceived authority, changed the solemnity of the Sabbath to the first day of the week, and by doing so, exalted tradition above scripture.
 
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Brakelite

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Another person who thinks their opinions are evidence enough, rather than providing evidence to back them up.
Don't waste my time.
Might I suggest that observation, that is eye witness accounts, is among the best evidence that can be presented in court? FotG had observed your posts, and came to a conclusion. He doesn't need further evidence... Observation itself is the evidence.
 
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MatthewG

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Christ Is Our High Priest
14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin. 16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.
 
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Zao is life

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Please quote the scripture where Jesus told His disciples that the Pope and the RCC would bring all things He taught them to their remembrance and guide them into all truth.

Please quote the scripture where the Pope and the RCC are the only mediator between the saints and God.

Please quote the scripture where the Pope is the High Priest of the saints in the order of Melchizedek.

I can make a long list. But I know, you can't.

So you're just wasting the time of all true Christians with your lies and the tricks you use to push it.
 

Mungo

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Please quote the scripture where Jesus told His disciples that the Pope and the RCC would bring all things He taught them to their remembrance and guide them into all truth.

Please quote the scripture where the Pope and the RCC are the only mediator between the saints and God.

Please quote the scripture where the Pope is the High Priest of the saints in the order of Melchizedek.

I can make a long list. But I know, you can't.

So you're just wasting the time of all true Christians with your lies and the tricks you use to push it.

Try quoting scripture to prove some of your claims.
Try setting an example.

P.S. The Catholic Church never claims any of the things you say.
 

Mungo

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Might I suggest that observation, that is eye witness accounts, is among the best evidence that can be presented in court? FotG had observed your posts, and came to a conclusion. He doesn't need further evidence... Observation itself is the evidence.

You can suggest it but that doesn't mean it's true. It's just your opinion.
 

David in NJ

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You can suggest it but that doesn't mean it's true. It's just your opinion.

Have you ever considered the opinions of a man named Jesus.

So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid.”


Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me. Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

Would this not be Sola Scriptura, just as we have been declaring to you..........if not, then why believe in God since there is no evidence but man's opinions.
 
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