You are simply extrapolating out what you believe the pastor may have meant, but we are tasked with trying to resolve whether he is being a false prophet for spreading dogma's unrelated to Christian scripture. This is what the pastor did in fact say though: He does not ever partake in even one drink because those who do drink alcohol (apparently any amount) "are in danger of hell fire." So he has made himself judge, jury and executioner over his parishioners and is thus trying to play God by determining who shall qualify for God's Kingdom. This is where the discussion began and you have managed to walk away from the simple truth that there is no "Christian" scripture which supports either your position or his that any amount of alcohol consumption will lead to eternal death!ChristianJuggarnaut said:
Something my pastor said during service
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Wormwood
Chaps
I think it is clear some have a weak conscience over this issue. The kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking. For those who feel this is a sin for them, it is a sin. I think we can leave it at that.
what we need to do is see what scripture says. if you look up the different words that are used for wine will tell us the truth. also you can come from the stand point of finding scripture concerning alcoholic and non alcoholic drink.
alcohol is perhaps the most dangerous in any culture because of its complete acceptance by society, its total availability to the populace, and its devastating effect on every area of life including families,individual health, safety of people by accidents, and violence in schools, employment, and government. a century ago some reputable hebrew and greek scholars set forth evidence showing that the major words translated wine in scripture are yayin and oinos could mean either fermented or unfermented grape juice. the research of these men clearly show that the context of divine approval or disapproval in any given passage was the determining factor rather then the innate meanings of the words.
wine and alcohol in the old testament tell us that priests were not allowed to drink wine or any other strong drink on or of duty(lev 10:8-11). rulers were forbidden to use intoxicating wine(pro 31:4-5). solomon gave a blanket command to avoid all fermented wine(pro 23:31). also wine is a mocker(pro 20:1, heavy drinking brings poverty pro 23:21, using intoxicating wine brings trouble physically and socially pro 23:29-30, intoxicating wine ultimately harms the user pro 23:32, alcohol is the companion of immortality and untruthfulnesss pro 23:33, and on and on.
in the old and new testament wine is a symbol of God's wrath and judgement ps 60:3, ps 75:8, jer 25:15-17.
wine is also seen as a symbol for prosperity, spoken of as a blessing, a source of cheer and gladness, so is this a contradiction in the bible? no it is not if we just take the time to look up the hebrew words for wine. yayin is referred to as a generic term for both fermented and unfermented wine(71 times it refers to grape juice and 70 times it refers to fermented wine) and tirosh is translated new wine or harvest wine. tirosh is always refers to unfermented fruit of the vine,such as fruit that is still on the grape cluster. tirosh wine has a blessing attached to it. fermented wine is a mocker and brings drunkenness. sheka is translated strong drink.
in the new testament there is only one word for wine(oinos). so an understanding of the word wine in the NT can only come through studying the context and believing God for revelation. do i need to explain new testament use of the word 'oinos'? if i doplease feel free to ask.
God bless
alcohol is perhaps the most dangerous in any culture because of its complete acceptance by society, its total availability to the populace, and its devastating effect on every area of life including families,individual health, safety of people by accidents, and violence in schools, employment, and government. a century ago some reputable hebrew and greek scholars set forth evidence showing that the major words translated wine in scripture are yayin and oinos could mean either fermented or unfermented grape juice. the research of these men clearly show that the context of divine approval or disapproval in any given passage was the determining factor rather then the innate meanings of the words.
wine and alcohol in the old testament tell us that priests were not allowed to drink wine or any other strong drink on or of duty(lev 10:8-11). rulers were forbidden to use intoxicating wine(pro 31:4-5). solomon gave a blanket command to avoid all fermented wine(pro 23:31). also wine is a mocker(pro 20:1, heavy drinking brings poverty pro 23:21, using intoxicating wine brings trouble physically and socially pro 23:29-30, intoxicating wine ultimately harms the user pro 23:32, alcohol is the companion of immortality and untruthfulnesss pro 23:33, and on and on.
in the old and new testament wine is a symbol of God's wrath and judgement ps 60:3, ps 75:8, jer 25:15-17.
wine is also seen as a symbol for prosperity, spoken of as a blessing, a source of cheer and gladness, so is this a contradiction in the bible? no it is not if we just take the time to look up the hebrew words for wine. yayin is referred to as a generic term for both fermented and unfermented wine(71 times it refers to grape juice and 70 times it refers to fermented wine) and tirosh is translated new wine or harvest wine. tirosh is always refers to unfermented fruit of the vine,such as fruit that is still on the grape cluster. tirosh wine has a blessing attached to it. fermented wine is a mocker and brings drunkenness. sheka is translated strong drink.
in the new testament there is only one word for wine(oinos). so an understanding of the word wine in the NT can only come through studying the context and believing God for revelation. do i need to explain new testament use of the word 'oinos'? if i doplease feel free to ask.
God bless
7angels,
Nice well-worded post. I agree with you on all points. Most here, however do not.
Several have said they would rather just drop it. I am not sure if they are still angry with me or if the Holy Spirit is at work.
In case it is the latter, we should keep going.
Nice well-worded post. I agree with you on all points. Most here, however do not.
Several have said they would rather just drop it. I am not sure if they are still angry with me or if the Holy Spirit is at work.
In case it is the latter, we should keep going.
River, Wormwood, Aspen, anyone else,
Did anyone read the link I provided or do any research on it themselves? It explained that it was alcoholic wine that was added to the water to purify it. The alcohol content of the wine purified the water but was a non-alcoholic product when finished and was sweet instead, the alcohol content was nonexistent when finished.
There are sites where a wine company will still use the process to this very day. It seems to me, Jesus could have just put wine in the jars and it still been a miracle...why then did He make sure to point out He started with water? Believe what you want, I will believe what I want. I am not saying it matters. I do not seem to be as invested in the result. I do not care if you drink or how much you do drink. I do not believe a person who drinks...even to excess...is unsaved. I am just trying to give a different perspective. I have been told on many occasions that I simply do not think the way everyone else does, probably because I am stupid. I am probably wrong in this situation also.
Have a nice day.
SL
Did anyone read the link I provided or do any research on it themselves? It explained that it was alcoholic wine that was added to the water to purify it. The alcohol content of the wine purified the water but was a non-alcoholic product when finished and was sweet instead, the alcohol content was nonexistent when finished.
There are sites where a wine company will still use the process to this very day. It seems to me, Jesus could have just put wine in the jars and it still been a miracle...why then did He make sure to point out He started with water? Believe what you want, I will believe what I want. I am not saying it matters. I do not seem to be as invested in the result. I do not care if you drink or how much you do drink. I do not believe a person who drinks...even to excess...is unsaved. I am just trying to give a different perspective. I have been told on many occasions that I simply do not think the way everyone else does, probably because I am stupid. I am probably wrong in this situation also.
Have a nice day.
SL
You are not stupid. Taking scripture literally on drinking is being safe. It is those that don't that need to harshly judge / discern their reasons for doing so, whilst doing so. 1 Cor 11:31.Secondhand Lion said:
just to clear up wine and Jesus in the NT. Jesus did not conform to twentieth century standards but to the standards of the day where all juice of the grape was considered wine. also whatever Jesus made during the wedding that day was consistent with his character. in order to know the truth we need to follow the scriptures. first Jesus came to fulfill scripture 1 cor 15:3-4. second, fermented wine symbolized wrath and judgment in the OT. Jesus came to obey the law. God the Father's moral command was "look not upon the wine when it is red, ... when it goes down smoothly pro 23:29-31, hab 2:15. it would be quite irrelevant to assume that Jesus would create alcohol for a drunken party james 1:3, gal 5:19-21. to create alcohol would not be a true miracle. alcohol is a perversion of the real. satan cannot create anything. God is the only creator. all satan can do is pervert what God created. the wedding of cana was a type and symbol of Jesus' marriage to the church. the wine He made symbolized His blood, with which He would purchase His bride.john 19:34.
during the Lord's supper the passover law prohibited the presence or use of seor(a word used to refer to leaven, yeast or any agent of fermentation). anything containing any fermentation was forbidden because fermentation symbolized corruption and sin matt 16:6, 12, 1 cor 5:7-8. for Jesus to of used fermented wine during the passover would of been in direct rebellion to God.
also under the new testament all believers are members of the royal priesthood and God commands all priests in the OT to sustain from all types of wine and strong drink. 1 pet 2:9, rev 1:5-6, lev 10:9-11.
wine in the NT church 1 tim 5:23 is brought up alot. it says "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." we have already stated that God considers any type of alcohol a symbol of sin and corruption. timothy developed stomach problems because of the alkali in the water at ephesus and needed to neutralize the harmful effect of the alkali. according to the greek writings on medicine, often wines used for the stomach were not intoxicating. it would be inconsistent for paul to ask timothy to disobey God's moral standards and consume alcoholic drink for his stomach.
i hope this helps clarify things :)
God bless
during the Lord's supper the passover law prohibited the presence or use of seor(a word used to refer to leaven, yeast or any agent of fermentation). anything containing any fermentation was forbidden because fermentation symbolized corruption and sin matt 16:6, 12, 1 cor 5:7-8. for Jesus to of used fermented wine during the passover would of been in direct rebellion to God.
also under the new testament all believers are members of the royal priesthood and God commands all priests in the OT to sustain from all types of wine and strong drink. 1 pet 2:9, rev 1:5-6, lev 10:9-11.
wine in the NT church 1 tim 5:23 is brought up alot. it says "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." we have already stated that God considers any type of alcohol a symbol of sin and corruption. timothy developed stomach problems because of the alkali in the water at ephesus and needed to neutralize the harmful effect of the alkali. according to the greek writings on medicine, often wines used for the stomach were not intoxicating. it would be inconsistent for paul to ask timothy to disobey God's moral standards and consume alcoholic drink for his stomach.
i hope this helps clarify things :)
God bless
Wormwood said:
Gods word teaches in the ot-- a little wine is good for the stomach--- 1 Corinthians 6:9-11--Teaches--those who practice drunkenness will not enter Gods kingdom( be saved)--I am confident drug addiction fits in this as well.
So Jesus made grapejuice ?
And a lot has been said on this thread so correct me if I'm wrong. Did someone mention that the wine was made to purify the water? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just make purified water if that's the case? I may have read wrong. :)
And a lot has been said on this thread so correct me if I'm wrong. Did someone mention that the wine was made to purify the water? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just make purified water if that's the case? I may have read wrong. :)
Wormwood
Chaps
Can you provide the sources of these scholars and their work? I'd like to read up on it. The scholars I have read on the Greek word oinos is very different. It is used almost exclusively of "wine" and there is a specific term for grape juice and that term is not oinos. Also, I think your argument is very slanted. You pick out the negative texts on alcohol (most of which are in reference to drunkenness which no one is defending here) but then the positive texts that use a "generic" word for wine, you imply is not generic but is speaking specifically about non-alcoholic drink.7angels said:
Yes, the abuse of alcohol has been problematic to many cultures including ours. However, there are just as many reports about the benefits of small quantities (a glass a day) of wine and alcohol. Wine was used for medicinal purposes in the ancient world (and is recommended to Timothy for its medicinal purposes for his ailing stomach) and is still used this way today.
The wrath of God in reference to wine has nothing to do with alcohol, but the "winepress" in which people would stomp red grapes which would stain their feet and cloths red. This is an image of Gods' wrath which has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting alcoholic drink. If anything, this argues the opposite point in my mind. God's wrath is pictured as the Israelites process for making wine.
In sum, we could make the same arguments about obesity and gluttony. Fast food, huge servings and fatty diets are a plague to our culture and the heath of the Western world. The leading cause of death is heart-attack which is most often linked to these diets. Moreover, it causes people to be non-dependent on God and arrogant. God also speaks against gluttons and over consumption in Proverbs. Yet this does not mean eating a Big Mac is a sin. Just because people abuse things and misuse what God has provided (food, sex, alcohol, etc.) does not mean that it is not a potentially good thing when used properly and in moderation.
Fantastic reply. This should end the discussion right here (not that it will). Blessings.Wormwood said:
Please explain what is so "discussion ending" about that post?williemac said:
Quite frankly it is extremely disingenuous to keep equating gluttony with drunkenness. You don't need to look up scholars...you need to open Strong's. You guys just won't accept the arguments, it's not that they aren't there for anyone who wants to take an honest look. Even if you want to only look at scholars...there are plenty. It appears even those who would normally take an open, honest look at something are not quite willing to do it on this subject.
Gluttony...eating...we were made to have to eat to survive.
Drinking....alcohol...we were made to drink alcohol to survive....nope water. You never have to take a single drink of alcohol to survive.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Alcoholics are gluttons - any time you over consume, you are committing the sin of gluttony - not sure why you do not agree, SL.
It can also be used to commit other sins, as well. Believe me, alcohol is pure destruction when it is abused - body, mind, and spirit. It not only destroys the pancreas, stomach, throat, liver and brain, it short circuits the judgment and morality. And once that neural connection for a craving is formed, it never goes away.
It can also be used to commit other sins, as well. Believe me, alcohol is pure destruction when it is abused - body, mind, and spirit. It not only destroys the pancreas, stomach, throat, liver and brain, it short circuits the judgment and morality. And once that neural connection for a craving is formed, it never goes away.
I agree that Alcoholics are gluttons. But gluttony in this thread has been defined pretty regularly as only having to do with food. This is the exception I am taking with it. I am pointing out that it is a poor analogy to equate drinking alcohol with eating food. We were made to eat food (although not generally the foods I eat :blink: ), so that is at least abusing what we have to do. So to equate the two positions someone would have to make the absurd argument that you could be gluttonous with water. We do not ever have to drink alcohol, that is a choice. We have to drink water to live, not a choice. We have to eat food to live, also not a choice.aspen said:
I am probably still not making any sense.
SL
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You are making sense. I just disagree because both eating food and drinking alcohol in excess are similar problems. You could even carry it farther - everyone has to shop and most states allow alcohol to be sold in grocery stores. Yes, you have the choice not to buy alcohol, but you do have to actively choose to ignore what you are seeing and craving every time you shop for food, just like you have to actively choose broccoli over Cheetos.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't choose broccoli over Cheetos! :unsure: Now you've made it personal!
Just kidding of course
SL
Just kidding of course
SL
sorry it took so long to respond. first let us start with the greek word 'oinos' was not used originally in the writing of the old testament so we need to look at the hebrew definitions of words and not greek in order to get the correct meaning. you claim that "i pick out the negative texts on alcohol (most of which are in reference to drunkenness which no one is defending here) but then the positive texts that use a "generic" word for wine, you imply is not generic but is speaking specifically about non-alcoholic drink". even reading about alcohol in today's research on alcohol will help you to understand that even a little alcohol can impair our judgment. also it is interesting to read that secular fitness and health magazines today are recommending the use of nonalcoholic wine for medicinal purposes because the same health benefits are in red grape juice as in red wine. i have already posted the reason for timothy's drinking of wine in post #107. you say, "The wrath of God in reference to wine has nothing to do with alcohol, but the "winepress" in which people would stomp red grapes which would stain their feet and cloths red. This is an image of Gods' wrath which has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting alcoholic drink. If anything, this argues the opposite point in my mind. God's wrath is pictured as the Israelites process for making wine". i sure would like to hear your scripture references to prove your point and not just your views.Wormwood said:
you argument on gluttony and obesity has merit but scripturally there are many foods we should not be eating or drinking. for example if we look at what they eat in the bible you will find that they ate organic food. another example you will find that honey is way better then processed sugar and you can switch honey for sugar when cooking. remember we will pay for the consequences for our actions.
well i have to go.
God bless
[SIZE=medium]God put pain remedies into nature. Problem comes when people use pain remedies for body to heal pains of the soul.[/SIZE]
True (sort of), but that is not what we are talking about here. I find it intriguing that the Holy Spirit is figuratively referred to as the "new wine", and our new spirits are called the new wine skins. Paul's exhortation was not that we shouldn't drink wine. It was that we shouldn't use it as our source of life, which is what I suppose you meant to say in so many words. The so called pains of the soul are rooted in the vacancy of God's life within.Suhar said:
Who wrote 1 Timothy 5:23 ?williemac said:
Do not use parables in literal meaning. There are parables about seed, whores.... you do not even want to go there!
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