Soul sleep

[Phoneman777]

Were they Christian or did Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformers come from a perspective of believing that everything is a god including the natural world as pantheism suggests? Orthodoxy can be challenged but not from perspective outside the Christian worldview.... :huh:

"Christian Orthodoxy" and "Christian Worldview" are worthless if they don't line up with Isaiah 8:20 KJV. And since both institutions champion the idea that the soul possesses "Native Immortality" while Scripture declares that God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV) and that the redeemed do not yet possess but will be the sole recipients of immortality (Romans 2:6-9 KJV), the term "orthodox" which lends itself to "legitimacy" must be employed in order to establish credibility where Scripture doesn't. It is a means by which the consensus view may be invested with a degree of legitimacy before the Biblical evidence has a chance to speak, which is deceptive to say the least.

 

[Raeneske]

I have never had a problem with calling death Sleep as Jesus did. It explains why the dead know nothing Ecclesiastes 9:5.

IMO the soul exists in a dreamlike state when apart from the body. Hence it knows nothing, as knowledge is with-held from us in a dream. But in a dream we react, and the soul will react even as it suffers or rejoices in it's circumstance.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 leads me to believe the soul does not go on to be in heaven immediately after death. But will only do so after the Resurrection of the dead. I believe this verse has made some to think the soul sleeps, as they can't imagine waiting for heaven after death.

I don't think we will have to wait, just as in a dream time doesn't pass as we expect. Eternity will come quickly for those at rest in the Lord. Or he may be our gateway to eternity and we wouldn't have to wait at all.

With respect,

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There is no part of man that one can declare separates from him at death. Man is literally dust, and that's it. We are dust given the breath of life, made in the image of God. If something happens to the body, we cease to exist. If God takes away the breath of life from us, again, we cease to exist. People continue to give man this immortal part of him, but miss the fact that if man was inherently immortal, why does he need to eat from the tree of life? It literally doesn't make any sense. Why did Adam and Eve have to eat from the tree, being inherently immortal? Only God has inherent immortality.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

What will happen to the sinner that eats from the tree of life? His life is perpetuated. Hence, God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden after sin, that they would be immortal sinners. We are not immortal. We are mortal.

It also is in line with Satan's argument to declare we do not really die, to declare the body may die, but we ourselves do not actually die. Either the wages of sin is death, or it's not. Either I, myself, my personal being, will die, or it will not.

So you believe we sleep until the first resurrection. I'm a little confused on what position you're taking.

I do believe when one dies they sleep until they are resurrected. Man has yet to be judged, so man cannot immediately go to heaven or a place of eternal conscious torment in flames immediately after death.

 

[Born_Again]

Okay, I'm going to disagree with D.Genisis. I propose, as it has been proposed before that the Soul does not sleep. Ponder the statement made about time... Perhaps when we die a mortal death, and given you do not suffer a spiritual death, we awake immediately to the second coming. There for joining Him in the kingdom. Now shift to mortal death vs spiritual death.....

In Gen. the death spoken of was spiritual death. (as it is spoken of through out the bible) There had to be mortal death regardless. But had they not eaten from the tree of life, they would not know sin. So, the moment they ate from the tree of life, sin had taken place and "death" (being spiritual death) was introduced. Had there been no sin, there would be no spiritual death. As with current teachings, if you do not sin, there is no spiritual death.

BA

 

[lforrest]

Also consider what Jesus said to the man who died next to him on the cross. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

I dont see how the soul can die with the body, the word 'Today' wouldnt be true.

 

[Raeneske]

Okay, I'm going to disagree with D.Genisis. I propose, as it has been proposed before that the Soul does not sleep. Ponder the statement made about time... Perhaps when we die a mortal death, and given you do not suffer a spiritual death, we awake immediately to the second coming. There for joining Him in the kingdom. Now shift to mortal death vs spiritual death.....

In Gen. the death spoken of was spiritual death. (as it is spoken of through out the bible) There had to be mortal death regardless. But had they not eaten from the tree of life, they would not know sin. So, the moment they ate from the tree of life, sin had taken place and "death" (being spiritual death) was introduced. Had there been no sin, there would be no spiritual death. As with current teachings, if you do not sin, there is no spiritual death.

BA

You mean had they not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, right? You are declaring, as Satan did, that mankind shall not surely die. Either I will die, my personal being, or I will not. Either I will really die, or I will not really die. There are no two ways about that. The Bible plainly tells us that we are dust, and upon committing sin, we therefore shall return again back to dust. The Bible does not say that man is a spirit, but that man is dust. Does this dust have inherent immortality? Absolutely not. Could it have lived immortally? Yes. But is it inherently immortal? Absolutely not.

The only reason man did not die on that very day, is because on that very day, a ransom was found for the life of man. It was Jesus, who was slain from the foundation of the world. But still what happened? After nearly 1000 years, Adam's vigor exhausted. Being unable to eat from the tree of life, his life was unable to be perpetuated.

Also consider what Jesus said to the man who died next to him on the cross. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

I dont see how the soul can die with the body, the word 'Today' wouldnt be true.

Unfortunately this is one of the grievous errors that people make. If Jesus literally went to heaven with the thief on the cross that day, why did He tell Mary three days later that He had not yet gone to heaven?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Then some misinterpret paradise to actually be a waiting place, and a "prison" of souls. That makes no sense whatsoever. Prison is paradise now?

The comma in Luke is misplaced, and should be placed after today. Then is that passage brought into harmony with the entire teachings of the Scriptures.

 

[ATP]

Also consider what Jesus said to the man who died next to him on the cross. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

I dont see how the soul can die with the body, the word 'Today' wouldnt be true.

If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. Also, the word paradise describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We also see in verse 42, that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted. The correct way to witness verse 43 is this, with no punctuation. If you're adding punctuation the correct place to put it is after today, being that Jesus was only comforting him..Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise

 

[Angelina]

"Christian Orthodoxy" and "Christian Worldview" are worthless if they don't line up with Isaiah 8:20 KJV. And since both institutions champion the idea that the soul possesses "Native Immortality" while Scripture declares that God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV) and that the redeemed do not yet possess but will be the sole recipients of immortality (Romans 2:6-9 KJV), the term "orthodox" which lends itself to "legitimacy" must be employed in order to establish credibility where Scripture doesn't. It is a means by which the consensus view may be invested with a degree of legitimacy before the Biblical evidence has a chance to speak, which is deceptive to say the least.

You could say the same for today's Judaic Jewish believers but that does not make them Christian... :huh: In fact they will tell you clearly that they are not Christians but believers in the God of Israel.

 

[Phoneman777]

You could say the same for today's Judaic Jewish believers but that does not make them Christian... :huh: In fact they will tell you clearly that they are not Christians but believers in the God of Israel.

So true. We must accept "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" if we expect to be counted among the saints. Messianic Jews claim to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but they oppose other aspects of the New Testament.

Also consider what Jesus said to the man who died next to him on the cross. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

I dont see how the soul can die with the body, the word 'Today' wouldnt be true.

I say unto you today Jesus will come back.

Now, did I mean Jesus is coming back this very day, or did I mean that I am boldly declaring today that Jesus will eventually come back?

According to Scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise that Preparation day because Sunday morning Jesus said He'd not yet ascended to the Father (His throne is in paradise) and the thief was still alive as they took them all down from their crosses as the day was drawing to a close with the setting sun.

Besides, the thief didn't expect to be "remembered" until Jesus was "come into Thy kingdom" which refers to the Second Coming.

Jesus simply stopped dying long enough to lean over and promise the thief, "Verily verily I say unto today, while I'm beaten, bruised, bloody, and hanging on this Cross looking like anything but the Savior of the world, YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

 

[ATP]

According to Scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise that Preparation day because Sunday morning Jesus said He'd not yet ascended to the Father

That's right. I think scripture even states Jesus didn't ascend to Heaven until 40 or 50 days later.

 

[lforrest]

John 11:24-26
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Martha thought there a limitation on Jesus, that was perfectly reasonable from a temporal perspective. Though she knew nothing about his upcoming death and resurrection, it was a valid concern IMO. He shouldn't have been able to raise someone from the dead since he had not been resurrected yet himself.
1 Corinthians 15:13 "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised."
IMO all resurrections though history have been possible because of Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago.

I consider Christ as eternal through his being in the Godhead. The order in which events occur for him while in the spirit may be entirely without meaning. So I'm not closing the door on the possibility that the thief went to paradise that day. If paradise actually is referring to God's throne, or some place where we wait in Christ which would be a form of paradise itself.

 

[ATP]

I consider Christ as eternal through his being in the Godhead. The order in which events occur for him while in the spirit may be entirely without meaning. So I'm not closing the door on the possibility that the thief went to paradise that day. If paradise actually is referring to God's throne, or some place where we wait in Christ which would be a form of paradise itself.

The Resurrection and Ascension are two different events. If Jesus meant that the thief would be with him (in bodily form) in paradise today, how could that be when Jesus doesn't ascend for another 40 days. Paradise is also considered a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

 

[Angelina]

The thief could never be with Jesus bodily because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. 1 Corinthians 15:50. Here we have Jesus just about to enter into the realms of death and hell. Prior to the cross, mankind were destined to the penalty of sin which is death Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, Romans 7:5, and would enter into the very place Christ had entered. However, Christ conquered death when God raised him up. Hebrews 2:14. This automatically took the power of death and hell out of the enemies hands. Revelation 1:18.

Getting back to the thief on the cross ~ Luke 23
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

I believe that Jesus was speaking figuratively as one who enters into his rest.

Therefore, while the promise to enter His rest remains, let us fear that none of you should miss it.2 For we also have received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard did not benefit them, since they were not united with those who heard it in faith 3 (for we who have believed enter the rest), in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest.

And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world, 4 for somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this way:

And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.

5 Again, in that passage He says, They will never enter My rest. 6 Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again, He specifies a certain day—today—speaking through David after such a long time, as previously stated:


Today, if you hear His voice,
do not harden your hearts.


8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God’s people. 10 For the person who has entered His rest has rested from his own works, just as God did from His. 11 Let us then make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall into the same pattern of disobedience.

 

[ATP]

The thief could never be with Jesus bodily because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.

Luke 23:43 NIV isn't saying"Truly I tell you, today you will be with just my spirit in paradise."
Nope. It says ME. Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
The thief also didn't care about entering into the Kingdom today, Luke 23:42 NIV,
there was also no punctuation in the original text, and paradise is a place on the New Earth.

 

[Angelina]

You still haven't got this yet ATP. Fresh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven. It is his soul that will be with Jesus in Paradise. The body goes back to the earth and our spirit goes back to God who gave it. Please note though...these thoughts were recorded pre-Christ. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and God gives us a new body. 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 3, 4.

The thief also didn't care about entering into the Kingdom today, Luke 23:42 NIV,

If the thief didn't care, he would not have made that passing remark.

there was also no punctuation in the original text, and paradise is a place on the New Earth.

It really doesn't matter. It could just as easily be a punctuation mistake. The bible was originally handwritten in Hebrew without vowels or punctuation, with all capital letters and no spaces in between. Bible scholars added the Greek, punctuation, vowels and spaces with the best intention of what they believed was the original text. Lowercase letters did not even exist until later on...The paradise Christ speaks of is not on earth nor would it ever be...

 

[ATP]

You still haven't got this yet ATP. Fresh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Correct, flesh and blood cannot enter. That is why Luke 23:42-43 NIV is speaking about the thief coming alive at the first resurrection, then the New Heavens and New Earth will come down.This is when we will be with Christ, ONLY at the first resurrection and on the New Earth.

The body goes back to the earth and our spirit goes back to God who gave it. Please note though...these thoughts were recorded pre-Christ. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and God gives us a new body. 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 3, 4.

Our spirit is considered "breath" and "wind" from God, so how can breath and wind exist without a brain, eyes, legs and arms? Scripture does not speak of a spirit body. In fact, God made MAN first, not our spirit. God didn't form a spirit from the dust, He formed MAN first. So if our flesh is the original being of our existence, how can our spirit exist without our flesh? Gen 2:7.

If the thief didn't care, he would not have made that passing remark.

But there was no punctuation in the original text. Translators add the comma wherever they please in Luke 23:43. The thief didn't say in Luke 23:42, "remember me when you enter in your kingdom today". Nope.

It really doesn't matter. It could just as easily be a punctuation mistake. The bible was originally handwritten in Hebrew without vowels or punctuation, with all capital letters and no spaces in between. Bible scholars added the Greek, punctuation, vowels and spaces with the best intention of what they believed was the original text. Lowercase letters did not even exist until later on..

Incorrect, adding the comma is translator bias. Flawed men who obtain their own beliefs change scripture to fit their twisted doctrines.

The paradise Christ speaks of is not on earth nor would it ever be...

Incorrect, the term "paradise" and "the tree of life" will specifically be a place on the New Earth..Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

 

[Angelina]

Correct, flesh and blood cannot enter. That is why Luke 23:42-43 NIV is speaking about the thief coming alive at the first resurrection, then the New Heavens and New Earth will come down.This is when we will be with Christ, ONLY at the first resurrection and on the New Earth.

The bible does not state that in this verse. What is says differs from your personal theological viewpoint. What it says [with or without punctuation] "Today you will be with me in paradise" If he meant at the first resurrection he would have said that...

Our spirit is considered "breath" and "wind" from God, so how can breath and wind exist without a brain, eyes, legs and arms? Scripture does not speak of a spirit body. In fact, God made MAN first, not our spirit. God didn't form a spirit from the dust, He formed MAN first. So if our flesh is the original being of our existence, how can our spirit exist without our flesh? Gen 2:7.

BeCause...the man became a living being. He was made from dust, God breathed in him the "breath of life"... he became "a living being"...He did not stay ~ "the breath of life", he turned into "a living being"

Let me explain it this way ~ God took some dust and formed it into a shape of a man [body], then he breathed into that shape [the spirit of life] when the spirit of life was breathed into the dust formed into a man by God, it became a living being [soul]

But there was no punctuation in the original text. Translators add the comma wherever they please in Luke 23:43. The thief didn't say in Luke 23:42, "remember me when you enter in your kingdom today". Nope.

Then why is it written in the bible? :blink:

Incorrect, adding the comma is translator bias. Flawed men who obtain their own beliefs change scripture to fit their twisted doctrines.

Again, you cannot prove that these men interpreted this scripture in the bible about "paradise" or "today" and create a whole belief system around it that is to the contrary. You need to have more than just a possible flaw in an interpretation to hang all your theology on...

Incorrect, the term "paradise" will specifically be a place on the New Earth..Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

Rev 2:7 ~ does not say that the paradise of God it is on earth or will ever be. Rev 22:2 again, this verse does not state that paradise is on earth.
Rev 22:19 nothing about paradise being on earth only a warning about the prophecy relating to this book...

 

[ATP]

The bible does not state that in this verse. What is says differs from your personal theological viewpoint. What is says [with or without punctuation] "Today you will be with me in paradise" If he meant at the first resurrection he would have said that...

But Jesus wasn't the one who put the comma in there. Truly I tell you today, states that Jesus was simply comforting the thief, as in two dying men on the cross with minutes to live.

BeCause...the man became a living being. He was made from dust, God breathed in him the "breath of life"... he became "a living being"...He did not stay ~ "the breath of life", he turned into "a living being"

Let me explain it this way ~ God took some dust and formed it into a shape of a man [body], then he breathed into that shape [the spirit of life] when the spirit of life was breathed into the dust formed into a man by God, it became a living being [soul]

And the breath of life Angelina is simply that, it is "breath". God BREATHED into us. God didn't breathe two bodies into our nostrils. That is incorrect theology.

[qoute]But there was no punctuation in the original text. Translators add the comma wherever they please in Luke 23:43. The thief didn't say in Luke 23:42, "remember me when you enter in your kingdom today". Nope.

Then why is it written in the bible?

[/QUOTE]
Because it's a part of the Word of God. Punctuation and the comma in verse 43 is not.

Rev 2:7 ~ does not say that the paradise of God it is on earth or will ever be. Rev 22:2 again, this verse does not state that paradise is on earth.
Rev 22:19 nothing about paradise being on earth only a warning about the prophecy relating to this book...

Incorrect again. These four scriptures speak specifically about the tree of life in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Notice the words in bold...

Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 NIV down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 NIV “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:19 NIV And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[Angelina]

But Jesus wasn't the one who put the comma in there. Truly I tell you today, states that Jesus was simply comforting the thief, as in two dying men on the cross with minutes to live.

Why would he comfort someone when he himself had the power to pardon. It was his pardon that bought this man into the paradise of God, irrespective of the punctuation mark.

And the breath of life Angelina is simply that, it is "breath". God BREATHED into us. God didn't breathe two bodies into our nostrils. That is incorrect theology.

Oh honey, the breath of life gave man the power to live ~ then to think and make decisions. A mans soul is made up of the mind, heart, will and emotions. It is the very essence of the man himself.

When God breathed the breath of life into that shape formed as a man, he became a "living being." Every human born today is self-seeding from the original Gen 2:7. Babies are born today shaped as little humans with the spirit of life already in them. That makes them alive and each baby automatically has a soul because God caused that immediate transaction to occur right from the very start by "breathing the "[spirit of life] into Adam's body [dust]" who automatically became a "living being"[soul].

Because it's a part of the Word of God. Punctuation and the comma in verse 43 is not.

Exactly and so we cannot dismiss a passage just because the punctuation may be in the wrong place.

Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

It does not say that paradise is on earth...If paradise is on earth then why does Paul speak of it as being in the third heaven? 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 and this was way after Christ's death on the cross

 

[ATP]

Why would he comfort someone when he himself had the power to pardon. It was his pardon that bought this man into the paradise of God, irrespective of the punctuation mark.

Because the Holy Spirit is the helper and comforter Angelina John 14:25-27 NIV. He was acting out the nature and character of God, because that's who He is.

Oh honey, the breath of life gave man the power to live ~ then to think and make decisions. A mans soul is made up of the mind, heart, will and emotions. It is the very essence of the man himself.

Oh honey, and where does the brain and heart exist, inside the flesh lol.

When God breathed the breath of life into that shape formed as a man, he became a "living being." Every human born today is self-seeding from the original Gen 2:7. Babies are born today shaped as little humans with the spirit of life already in them. That makes them alive and each baby automatically has a soul because God caused that immediate transaction to occur right from the very start by "breathing the "[spirit of life] into Adam's body [dust]" who automatically became a "living being"[soul].

But our spirit was not our origin of existence, our flesh was. The only reason we have a spirit and soul is because of our flesh. The flesh, spirit and soul cannot live apart from each other. It is impossible.

Exactly and so we cannot dismiss a passage just because the punctuation may be in the wrong place.

But the punctuation is what is causing the confusion. God did not add punctuation. Anything that is not from God needs to be questioned.

It does not say that paradise is on earth...If paradise is on earth then why does Paul speak of it as being in the third heaven? 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 and this was way after Christ's death on the cross

2 Cor 12:1-4 is based on a vision God gave to Paul. The reason Paul calls the third heaven paradise is because that's what it is. The third heaven, paradise will be brought down to the New Earth after the Great White Throne Judgment is complete Rev 21:1-8 NIV. Also notice that in 2 Cor 12:1-4, the man did not live for a long period of time in the third heaven. This was a vision given to Paul..(2 Cor 12:1 NIV I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.) Eden restored in Rev 22 will be on the New Earth. Rev 21 and Rev 22 are all about the New Earth, and that is what Jesus speaks of in Luke 23:42-43 NIV.

 

[Angelina]

Because the Holy Spirit is the helper and comforter Angelina John 14:25-27 NIV. He was acting out the nature and character of God, because that's who He is.

Jesus came as the Savior of the world and redeemer of all who believe in him by faith. He did not come to do the Holy Spirit's job.The Holy Spirit was sent after Jesus departed... John 16:7

Oh honey, and where does the brain and heart exist, inside the flesh lol.

Wow! Another transition takes place when we leave this earthly tent. It is spiritual 1 Corinthians 15:45 God is Spirit, John 4:24, Jesus is Spirit Gal 4:6 and the Holy Spirit is Spirit. God does not need a body made of flesh to live. What about the Holy Spirit...does he also need a body to live. Do you think that the Godhead had physical bodies before creating the world and everything that came into existence? :blink:

But our spirit was not our origin of existence, our flesh was. The only reason we have a spirit and soul is because of our flesh. The flesh, spirit and soul cannot live apart from each other. It is impossible.

Our flesh/body was a lifeless form of clay made out of dust in the beginning and then God brought that lifeless dust form, shaped like a man to life. The body is just a tent that houses our spirit which God originally breathed into Adam and our soul which is our very essence.

But the punctuation is what is causing the confusion. God did not add punctuation. Anything that is not from God needs to be questioned.

but God did inspire that written passage...if that is correct then that is all that matters. You cannot throw the baby out with the bath water and hinge your whole theology on that one piece of misplaced punctuation.

2 Cor 12:1-4 is based on a vision God gave to Paul. The reason Paul calls the third heaven paradise is because that's what it is. The third heaven, paradise will be brought down to the New Earth after the Great White Throne Judgment is complete Rev 21:1-8 NIV. Also notice that in 2 Cor 12:1-4, the man did not live for a long period of time in the third heaven. This was a vision given to Paul..(2 Cor 12:1 NIV I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.) Eden restored in Rev 22 will be on the New Earth. Rev 21 and Rev 22 are all about the New Earth, and that is what Jesus speaks of in Luke 23:42-43 NIV.2 Cor 12:1-4

Paul is speaking of a vision/revelation from the Lord just as John was in spirit had a vision [Revelation 1:10] which he recorded and is now known as the Book of Revelation. What I am trying to point out is...that the thief could easily be in the paradise that day or it could also mean "from this time forth" as the term today seems to indicate in other places in the bible ie: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts"...