Phoneman777 said:
Friend, I have to say that there are absolutely no Biblical reasons to support the idea of consciousness in death whatsoever. If you believe you have some, please present them one at a time and we can discuss them. I think we all agree that "sleep is a Biblical metaphor of death" based on what Jesus and David both said. But, to argue that this metaphor leaves room for the idea of consciousness in death is fully unwarranted in the light of what the rest of the Bible says unequivocally and irrefutably about death. In light of the following texts and many others that could be presented, we see that "sleep" is actually an excellent metaphor for death, but certainly not consciousness in death:
The dead know absolutely nothing
The dead possess no memory
The dead do not have the ability to experience emotion
The dead do not possess knowledge
The dead do not possess wisdom
The dead do not possess the ability to lay plans
The dead do not have anything to do with anything that takes place here under the heavens which are now.
The dead do not praise God
The dead do not perceive anything
As you can see, the above list speaks of death as having nothing to do with consciousness at all, which is exactly what a deep, sound, full, dreamless night's sleep brings - in both circumstances identical conditions prevail - people who experience that deep, sound, full, dreamless night's sleep do not engage in anything on the above list - it is only when they awake that they do so, friend, and only in the resurrection will they commence to do so as well, but certainly not while they are yet dead now.
Phoneman,
This is filtered reasoning. You have left out biblical material that contradicts your view.
Note Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” It obviously indicates immortality if it cannot be killed, even though the exact words, “immortal soul,” are not mentioned. A soul that cannot die by being killed lives on and on forever. Just as the word, “trinity,” is not used in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught.
Jesus’ words are that we are not to “fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul” but that we should “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” In this verse, “soul” must refer to that part of a human being that exists after death. There is no other way around this verse. It cannot equate “soul” with “person” or “life.” It would be ridiculous to make it mean “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life,” or “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the person.”
This verse has no meaning unless there is some aspect of human beings that lives on after the body is dead. When Jesus speaks of the soul and body he is obviously speaking of the entire person. The word “soul” represents the entire non-physical part of a human being.
Now to the second part of the verse: “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).” What does “destroy” mean? It is the Greek
apolesai (aorist, active, infinitive of
apollumi).
Apollumi in the active voice means “ruin, destroy” (Arndt & Gingrich Greek lexicon).
If I backed my car over one of my child’s favourite toys, I may have ruined or destroyed it. The crumpled toy was still there to be ruined. This does not mean that I annihilated it. I did not obliterate it from existence. It was still present but of no further use as a toy. This is similarly what the Greek means by “apollumi.” The body and soul in Gehenna have been ruined. We know from other places in the NT that this experience of the soul of unbelievers in hell is called, “everlasting punishment” (Matt. 25:46) punishing that goes on forever. Everlasting punishment does not equate with annihilation.
Does the soul continue to interact between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:
(1) Unbelievers:
- In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
- Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);
(2) Believers:
- Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);
Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);
Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);
- Who are martyred souls “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.
Believers will be like Christ after their physical death (see passages such as Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 15:49; Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2). They will be with Him (eg John 14:3; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:18; 4:17, etc.). They will share Christ’s glory (Rom. 8:18, 30; 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:17, etc.); they will share Christ’s reign (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26-27; etc.). As children of God, in that intermediate state, we will enjoy perfect fellowship with Christ (see Rev. 21:3,7). We will be worshipping Him (Rev. 7:15; 22:3) and be before His face (Matt. 5:8; 1 Cor. 13:12, etc.)
Dr. Robert Morey (2006) provided these verses as “t
he primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24.
There is consciousness after death for both believers and non-believers. That's biblical.
Oz