Take the Law away..

[Enoch111]

I have a question for you. For the believer, does the law of Christ condemn the believer who doesn't live up to it?

Here's your answer:

1 JOHN 1 & 2: CHRISTIANS MUST TAKE STOCK OF THEMSELVES
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is not the answer. If the law of Christ condemns the believer who doesn't live up to it, then violating the law of Christ on even one point = condemnation (see Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

There is a reality to the fact that if one is born again of the Holy Spirit, there will be a change in their life; and no one is denying that reality.

However, Jesus said, the spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak.

So then, when we fail because of such a weakness, if we are under the law of Christ, we are condemned by the law of Christ any and every time we fail.

Paul said, I am under the law to Christ.

This means that Paul himself was governed by the law from the inside; while it does not mean that he was condemned by the law when he failed to measure up to it. For the blood of Jesus covered over his sins and brought forgiveness.

Do you deny the fact that God forgives sinners, @Enoch111?

But I may have misunderstood you, since you did not put your answer into your own words. You may be saying exactly what I am saying here; because the scripture passage you have quoted does in fact say what I am saying here, if you will look at it again (and if you disagree with me).

 

[Scoot]

I actually Love God's law. But to be clear - this does not mean that one must keep the law for salvation. It is obvious that the law cannot save. (Galatians 2:16), and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.

In saying that - I strongly disagree with the O.P. We should never take the law away. I believe without the law, the gospel message changes. Without the law, the lost see no sin. Without Sin, what need does the lost have of a savior, or what need to repent? Instead they may seek a savior that makes them prosperous, or will heal them, or fix their marriage, etc? They then come to Christ not on their knees through repentance, but with their hands out to get. It becomes about them, and not about Him.

Take the law away? Not until heaven and earth pass away (Matt 5:18).

Rather - I take the warning from Jesus Himself quite seriously in Matt 5:19 that whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus was never teaching that you follow the law for salvation - yet he spoke all of the above. In fact - I believe He makes it clear that while we don't follow the law to keep salvation - as that is by grace alone - through our natural love for Christ who has saved us - we desire to keep His commandments. (John 14:15)

To me the road here is very narrow with the understanding of the law. In one gutter we have those who try and keep the law unto salvation which many fall into. However in order to avoid falling into that gutter - people focus on it so much and try and stay away from it - they risk falling into the gutter the other side of the road - which is dismissing the law and commandments completely. If the devil can't get us to fall in one, he'll try and make us so focused on it that it's easy to fall into the other. What's worse - we don't realise this has happened even after we've fallen because we're still so focused on the gutter on the other side of the road - we fail to see where we are.

 

[Enoch111]

I strongly disagree with the O.P.

Many of us do. He needs to be learning (as a novice), not trying to be a teacher misleading others.

 

[Enoch111]

Do you deny the fact that God forgives sinners, @Enoch111?

You are trying to go off on a tangent. The issue is not whether God forgives sinners, but whether Christians can and do sin and should therefore deal with their present sins as directed in Scripture. I gave you the Scriptures, and you immediately went off on a tangent.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are trying to go off on a tangent. The issue is not whether God forgives sinners, but whether Christians can and do sin and should therefore deal with their present sins as directed in Scripture. I gave you the Scriptures, and you immediately went off on a tangent.

I think that you are misunderstanding me. If you would look at some of my recent posts in some of the other threads, I think that you would see that I believe that we are to deal with our present sins.

The Father looks down at us and sees the perfect life, blood, and righteousness of Jesus.

The Holy Ghost, on the other hand, relates to us on the basis of our sins; for it is His job to convict us of our sins and thusly to sanctify us.

But again, the Father has forgiven us of past, present, and future sins and our position in Christ stands regardless of whether we confess our sins or not. It is relationship / fellowship / connectedness that is the issue when the Holy Spirit convicts us so that we can confess our sins....so that we can be restored to fellowship.

Whether God forgives sinners or not also is not a tangent, it is an integral part of our understanding.

Because if God forgives us of our sins, then we are not condemned by our failure to obey the law of Moses, neither the law of Christ.

It is just as if the law weren't there to condemn us.

Therefore, since the law isn't there any more to point out the fact that we are sinners, sin is no longer imputed to us as believers (Romans 4:8, Romans 5:13).

In Romans 4:15 it is written even that where there is no law there is no transgression. And sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). So then, where the law does not apply, there is no sin.

But this is not the whole of the matter. Because it should be evident that the law is eternal in the heavens; because sin was in the world before the law was given; and since sin is a violation of the standard of the law, the law would have to exist in the heavenlies in order for sin to be a reality. Therefore, sin is really only not imputed where there is no law...it is not leveled to our account. And for those of us who are in Christ, it is just as if the law weren't there to condemn us; because we are not under it (Romans 6:14), are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from it (Romans 7:6) (see also Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

 

[marks]

Your theology is getting more and more BIZARRE and NONSENSICAL.

Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;

How is it that you can live with God yet not be condemned when and if you should sin?

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;

How is it that you can live with God yet not be condemned when and if you should sin?

As I have already said, when Christians start taking verses out of context, they end up with spiritual confusion. The Law (Ten Commandments) has two aspects.

FOR SINNERS THE LAW IS TO ESTABLISH GUILT
In Romans 4 Paul is teaching that the purpose of the Law (Ten Commandments) FOR SINNERS is not to make them righteous, but to show that they are guilty before God, therefore subject to God's wrath. He is also contrasting justification by grace through faith vs justification by works of the Law.

FOR SAINTS: THE LAW IS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
When sinners are saved by grace, they are born again, and the Holy Spirits writes the Ten Commandments in their hearts and minds (according to the New Covenant). Therefore the Holy Spirit enables Christians to obey the Law of Christ as shown in Romans 13:
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law.

As already shown in another thread, Christians are under the Law of Christ, not lawless ones like the Anarchists surrounding us.

 

[justbyfaith]

FOR SAINTS: THE LAW IS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS

Philippians 3:9 says, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Enoch111]

Philippians 3:9 says, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

This is another attempt at taking Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT and then resisting the truth.

That verse is speaking about THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST, which is given to every believer as the "robe of righteousness" when he or she is justified by grace through faith.

However, those who are justified must also BE RIGHTEOUS, and the Law of Christ -- when obeyed -- will result is practical righteousness (as Paul has shown in Romans 13 and also below in Titus 2:11,12).

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[justbyfaith]

The practical righteousness of Christ is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Romans 14:23).

 

[mjrhealth]

And you didnt answer my question..
But thats ok, as i knew you couldn't.
You sin, and you repent, and you've been saved a long time old fella, and you've never yet been able to live a Christian discipleship, that is free from that situation.
So, you want to correct me, while you are not able to live a perfected discipleship, when i can show you how?
RETHINK your position, as you have been too long in the wasteland, amadeus.

Also, does God give Apostles and Prophets, and Teachers, to the body of Christ?
So, if you meet one here, you are shocked and stupefied??
Really?
Listen, Read your NT, a little me, and put your commentaries in the trash
.

Sin repent why, sins are paid for all of them, im amazed when i find anyone that hears from God..

 

[quietthinker]

If you closely read my Thread, you can post something thats related to it, next time.
See, people who are sinning and confessing are not really "heavy laden", they are "wrongly taught".
So, i teach them how to get away from really bad theology and into right believing.

And a question for you.
Do you sin and repent and confess?

What I read is condescension and self righteousness!

 

[quietthinker]

I have a question for you.

For the believer, does the law of Christ condemn the believer who doesn't live up to it?

Personally, I believe that we are forgiven of past, present, and future sins as Christians; and that therefore our relationship to the law has changed. How can the law condemn us if we are forgiven?

The Bible teaches that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14) are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) (see also Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19)...and this means that the law no longer condemns us from the outside, as being written on tablets of stone.

On the other side of the coin, the law governs us from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4) as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts.

This combination means that our new nature as born again believers motivates us to be obedient while in any instance where we should fail to be so, we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and are forgiven.

The law therefore cannot condemn us as believers.

Your words reflect a theoretical construct jbf, not relational experience.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your words reflect a theoretical construct jbf, not relational experience.

I'm not sure I catch your drift....what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[justbyfaith]

I know that I am forgiven when I blow it (Romans 4:5), and I know also that He has shed abroad His love in my heart (Romans 5:5); and that this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within me (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4)...and that this is my relational experience.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm not sure I catch your drift....what exactly are you trying to say?

I'm saying, theoretically you try to cross the t's and dot the i's so that your view adds up in your understanding.....and that understanding dismisses God's Commandments.

A relational experience is one humbled by the gravity of the gift given and in gratitude bends all energies to obey.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm saying, theoretically you try to cross the t's and dot the i's so that your view adds up in your understanding.....and that understanding dismisses God's Commandments.

A relational experience is one humbled by the gravity of the gift given and in gratitude bends all energies to obey.

Crossing your t's and dotting your i's is what you try to do when you attempt to keep God's commandments...especially when you think that such is going to be your salvation.

It does appear that you do not know me as a person...and that is fine...what matters is whether or not you know Christ as a Person.

But who I am as a person is this...I received the love of God in 1989 in waves of liquid love and have desired to be obedient to Him ever since, even out of thankfulness/gratitude for the salvation that He has given unto me.

Now, I am not going to go so far in my obedience as to become like an orthodox Jew in the wearing of tziztzit and tallit and tefilin; and/or in blowing a chofar on every new moon. I don't even own a chofar...so that commandment is basically impossible for me to keep. And I also don't own tziztzit or tallit or tefillin...so that is also impossible for me to keep.

Yet, these things are required by the letter of the Old Testament law.

Therefore, I teach that, as Christians, we are obedient to the spirit of the law and are no longer bound by the letter...

Because if we are bound by the letter, you must become as the uttermost Pharisee if you are going to enter in to the kingdom of heaven.

I find that Jesus lived the perfect life that is required of me, and then died on the Cross in my place...and that His perfect life is applied to my account.

So now, I don't have to behave as an orthodox Jew (or the uttermost Pharisee) in order to be saved...

I simply rest in the fact of Christ's imputed righteousness and I do my best to serve Him out of a heart of gratitude over what He has done for me in forgiving me of all of my sins.

 

[quietthinker]

Crossing your t's and dotting your i's is what you try to do when you attempt to keep God's commandments...especially when you think that such is going to be your salvation.

It does appear that you do not know me as a person...and that is fine...what matters is whether or not you know Christ as a Person.

But who I am as a person is this...I received the love of God in 1989 in waves of liquid love and have desired to be obedient to Him ever since, even out of thankfulness/gratitude for the salvation that He has given unto me.

Now, I am not going to go so far in my obedience as to become like an orthodox Jew in the wearing of tziztzit and tallit and tefilin; and/or in blowing a chofar on every new moon. I don't even own a chofar...so that commandment is basically impossible for me to keep. And I also don't own tziztzit or tallit or tefillin...so that is also impossible for me to keep.

Yet, these things are required by the letter of the Old Testament law.

Therefore, I teach that, as Christians, we are obedient to the spirit of the law and are no longer bound by the letter...

Because if we are bound by the letter, you must become as the uttermost Pharisee if you are going to enter in to the kingdom of heaven.

I find that Jesus lived the perfect life that is required of me, and then died on the Cross in my place...and that His perfect life is applied to my account.

So now, I don't have to behave as an orthodox Jew (or the uttermost Pharisee) in order to be saved...

I simply rest in the fact of Christ's imputed righteousness and I do my best to serve Him out of a heart of gratitude over what He has done for me in forgiving me of all of my sins.

Whatever or whoever gave you the idea that you have to behave like an Orthodox Jew?

 

[justbyfaith]

Whatever or whoever gave you the idea that you have to behave like an Orthodox Jew?

If I am going to be justified through obeying the law, I must obey every aspect of the law perfectly from conception into eternity; for it is written:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.