Talking in Tongues:

[OzSpen]

Now I put this question to you. By your understanding, who is praying when speaking in tongues? You or the Holy Spirit? It cannot be both. It is either the Holy Spirit that is praying or you are praying.

JIF,

That's a set up question!

The Scriptures are clear: 'For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying' (1 Cor 14:14 NLT).

When I pray in tongues, my spirit is in communication with God the Spirit. I am speaking with Him (1 Cor 14:2). It is a supernatural communication with God where I'm praying but 'praying in the Spirit'.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

This is Jesus speaking: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father' (John 14:12 ESV).

That is clear that Christian believers will be able to do the works that Jesus did. The miraculous is included in these 'works'. They will continue to do them once Jesus returns to the Father in his Ascension.

You consider that the miraculous gift that was a sign is no longer needed now that we have the message of the resurrection.

That's not what Jesus believed (John 14:12). Miraculous healing may not be happening in your country and mine that we know about. However .... we have evidence of

• Miracles in Mozambique: How Mama Heidi Reaches the Abandoned (Christianity Today, Tim Stafford 2012).

• I don't have access to this article, A Wondrous God: Miracles in Contemporary Africa (African Affairs).

1 Cor 12:30 states: μὴ πάντες χαρίσματα ἔχουσιν ἰαμάτων = not all gifts have healings. Or as the ESV translates: 'Do all possess gifts of healing?' The Greek construction requires the answer, 'No', associated with the Greek use of the negative me.

Since it is the Spirit who sovereignly gives the gifts of the Spirit, the gifts of miracles and healings are determined by the Spirit. They are happening in certain situations. God in his sovereignty knows they are needed to accomplish His purpose.

Could your cessationist presuppositions be clouding over what Jesus said.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Hey Oz,

Thanks for your reply. Let me press you a little further on this response to get your thoughts on this. Are you suggesting that every believer should be able to do the miracles Jesus did and more? I mean, "whoever" includes both of us, right? Shouldn't you be able to raise the dead by that rationale? I mean, John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." We take that to mean every believer will not perish. Therefore, does your interpretation of "whoever" here mean that every true believer should be able to raise the dead and walk on water? Im just trying to get a better feel for how you see these verses.

Moreover, I never said that miracles cannot happen. I am not a cessationist. I am saying that these miracles acted as signs to validate the early preaching of the message. In other words, the miracles had a role. The purpose of the gift was not to imbue believers with superpowers, but to validate the message people are to believe by faith. Perhaps there are places where the Gospel is newly being preached and signs are performed to validate the message in certain villages. I wouldn't discount that at all. However, the idea that every local church should have a miracle worker, tongues speakers, etc. as necessary ingredients to edify the local body of believers is NOT what the Holy Spirit had in mind, in my estimation. Some gifts have a particular role as "signs" to unbelievers. Once the signs have been given and the message established, they are no longer needed in the local church because they exist to validate the message to the unreached. The idea that just because a gift was prevalent in the first century means that is should be prevalent or expected in every church or for every single believer is a huge mistake, Imo.

I agree with you that the Spirit gives gifts as He desires and Paul assumes not all have tongues or other gifts. As I have argued previously, the lack of tongues or miracle working has nothing to do with lack of faith, lack of teaching, or lack of zeal or holiness among modern Christians (as some have argued in this thread). The issue is the desire of the Spirit...and as you have pointed out, it is very clear that the Holy Spirit does not desire most people to have miraculous gifts. And the idea that certain gifts (such as estate utterances without meaning (which, again, is not the biblical description of tongues, Imo)) only seem to exist in contexts where people are pushed and coached to perform them seems more than ironic to me. Why would the Spirit only "will" for this gift to exist in charismatic churches and not in churches that do not teach or encourage such behaviors? I would think that if the Spirit was the one guiding such gifts, that new converts in non-charismatic churches would burst out into such utterances on regular occasions.

In sum, I am not saying charismatics are doing anything wrong, I just don't think what they are practicing is biblical "tongues." It may be excitement and praise to God in its own unique way, but I just believe the origination of such utterances is in the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

God bless, brother.

 

[Sword]

Why don't you provide us with links to verified cases of healings around the world, including raising from the dead?

No problemo lol. I useully do at some point. I dont put them in here for the unblievers. I put them in here for the people who have an open mind.
If there mind is closed nothing will convince the closed mind of the unbelivers. If they dont belive the gifts are for all. why would the believe the dead raisers.
David Hogan.
Curry Blake. JGLM ministries.
Dan Mohler.
Todd White.
Andrew Wommack.
Torben. We need a new reformation of the church.
All of these guys are texas based.
And there are many many more.
Check
Try a book called Mega Shift. it has all the dates of world wide miricles with phone numbers and addresdses for your own reasearch.
Mega Shift: The Best News Since Year One: Amazon.co.uk: James Rutz: 9781936488827: Books

And if you are interested I can give my own testimonys of healing on the street.

 

[Sword]

Thanks for your reply. Let me press you a little further on this response to get your thoughts on this. Are you suggesting that every believer should be able to do the miracles Jesus did and more? I mean, "whoever" includes both of us, right? Shouldn't you be able to raise the dead by that rationale?

I love it when someone is stuck they ask can you raise the dead. They dont believe tounges is for all and now you throw in the anchour. You are shifting start a new thread on that. This is what I said when I peviously accussed you of bring in confusion. Your doing it again without addressing what you cant answer.

 

[OzSpen]

Hey Oz,

Thanks for your reply. Let me press you a little further on this response to get your thoughts on this. Are you suggesting that every believer should be able to do the miracles Jesus did and more? I mean, "whoever" includes both of us, right? Shouldn't you be able to raise the dead by that rationale? I mean, John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." We take that to mean every believer will not perish. Therefore, does your interpretation of "whoever" here mean that every true believer should be able to raise the dead and walk on water? Im just trying to get a better feel for how you see these verses.

Thank you for your challenging reply. You and I both know that we don't interpret a doctrine based on one proof text. The 'whoever' of John 14:12 needs to be within the boundaries set down by the larger Christian teaching of 1 Cor 12:28-30 (NIV):

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?​

Do all work miracles? The Greek anticipates a 'no' answer. Do all have gifts of healings? Again, the answer is 'no', based on the Greek grammar. Since the Holy Spirit gives gifts, they are sovereignly his to give.

In John 14:12, Jesus was promoting the continuation of the works of Jesus, including miracles, but there is teaching elsewhere in the NT that sets boundaries on this.

Moreover, I never said that miracles cannot happen. I am not a cessationist. I am saying that these miracles acted as signs to validate the early preaching of the message. In other words, the miracles had a role. The purpose of the gift was not to imbue believers with superpowers, but to validate the message people are to believe by faith. Perhaps there are places where the Gospel is newly being preached and signs are performed to validate the message in certain villages. I wouldn't discount that at all. However, the idea that every local church should have a miracle worker, tongues speakers, etc. as necessary ingredients to edify the local body of believers is NOT what the Holy Spirit had in mind, in my estimation. Some gifts have a particular role as "signs" to unbelievers. Once the signs have been given and the message established, they are no longer needed in the local church because they exist to validate the message to the unreached. The idea that just because a gift was prevalent in the first century means that is should be prevalent or expected in every church or for every single believer is a huge mistake, Imo.

Thanks for clarifying you are not a cessationist. I apologise for putting you in that category.

I have just replied in much detail to your post but lost it in trying to upload as it apparently was more than 10000 characters. I was unaware of this limit.

I don't have the time to reconstruct what I wrote at the moment.

Oz

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF,

That's a set up question!

The Scriptures are clear: 'For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying' (1 Cor 14:14 NLT).

When I pray in tongues, my spirit is in communication with God the Spirit. I am speaking with Him (1 Cor 14:2). It is a supernatural communication with God where I'm praying but 'praying in the Spirit'.

Oz

Sorry you felt that was a set up question, but you still do have contrary statements when it comes to praying in tongues which is not consistent with what Paul was writing about which was instructing tongue speakers to pray that the Lord will have the Holy Spirit manifest interpretation from another, because to Paul as a tongue speaker, it was unfruitful. And he is actually refuting what you claim as communication with God the Spirit when Paul admitted he knew not what he was saying; a song? a self edification? a prayer? Paul explained throughout that chapter that tongues was never to come without interpretation because if it did, that person was to be made silent as he was speaking a foreign language that he knew and was out of order, thus not manifested by the Holy Ghost.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Hey Oz,

In sum, I am not saying charismatics are doing anything wrong, I just don't think what they are practicing is biblical "tongues." It may be excitement and praise to God in its own unique way, but I just believe the origination of such utterances is in the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

God bless, brother.

I would say that they are doing everything wrong when it comes to tongues that is coming without interpretation as it cannot be of the Lord when they preach that tongue by a supernatural encounter separate from salvation or thinking it is another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

First off, they ignored the warning to not believe every spirit, but test them; 1 John 4:1-7 That test is that Jesus Christ is in them as in.. in the flesh presently. So when they confess Jesus Christ as being outside of them and coming over them again, that is apart from our faith and that is not the Holy Ghost bringing God's actual gift of tongues which was for speaking unto the people as 1 John 4:5-6 testify that they will speak the supernatural tongue that the world does speak which is babbling nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Since supernatural tongues can be found in the world as babbling nonsense, how can tongue speakers prevent voodooists & mediums from coming into the churches with their spirits and their tongues? How can the churches guard against those spirits if they believe every spirit that comes over them as being of God if they refuse to discern the spirits by acknowledging that it cannot be the Holy Spirit when He is already within them? Indeed, how can they prove that kind of tongue is from God when teh devil has been using that kind of tongue before Pentecost had come? How is that abstaining from all appearances of evil?

How can a former voodooist or a former medium prove that he has repented from his former sinful practices if he still speak the same kind of tongue? How can the church know if they did? How can these former sinners preach the gospel to voodooists and mediums if they still speak the same kind of tongue? They cannot because that is going against God's words of abstaining from all appearances of evil; therefore it cannot be of the Lord whereas God's actual gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people.... that is all.

This is the falling away from the faith prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as Paul testified of that iniquity already happening in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter as those believers were in danger of a damnation of being left behind as the five foolish virgins at the pre trib rapture event to be received later on after the great tribulation. When Paul reproved this iniquity by reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief f the truth at the hearing of the gospel, this identifies the iniquity as what modern day tongue speakers are involved in when thinking the Holy Spirit can be received separate from salvation or that they can receive Him again with evidence of tongues.

In 2 Thessalonians 3rd chapter, Paul went on addressing those in iniquity as being disorderly as they were not following after the traditions taught of us, and yet in verses 14 & 15, he still calls them brothers and not the enemy as we are to withdraw from the unrepentant to admonish them as brothers.

So let's see the elephant in the room that tongues speakers are engaged in. Can any tongue speaker testity that there were never believers falling down and flopping all over the place like a fish out of water in these events when seeking to receive the "Holy Spirit" " again" if not for the first time? Are there not other outward displays of the flesh when even after having received tongues, they still seek to receive the "Holy Spirit" again?

Jesus testified that no believer, after having received the Holy Spirit, can receive Him again after salvation, otherwise that would make the Father look evil as if He did not give the Holy Spirit the first time as promised at our salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus.

Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Tongue speakers would apply the above verses to mean to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit again and again, ignoring the appearance of evil by it.

Jesus testified that when one os born of the Spirit; that is when they are saved in Jhn 3rd chapter as explained to Nicodemus that when they believe n Him is when they have eternal life as being born of the Spirit means being born again and thus saved. There is no getting around that as Pauls ays;

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In spite of this appearance of evil in these supernatural events in seeking tongues....

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

... you do not see any tongue speaker putting an end to that or an end to the catching of people when they fall back in receiving the "Holy Spirit".

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 12th chapter testifies that the gifts are to profit the body withal, and no one member can say that they have no need of another in relations to these gifts but sure enough, tongue speakers are saying they need no interpretation as if the gift of tongue is a stand alone gift not necessarily for the assembly to profit the body withal. This proves that tongue speakers are reading chapter 14 out of context of chapter 12. let alone ignore 1 Corinthians 12:13 wherein no one with a gift can say they had another drink of the One Spirit apart from salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So once again, this babbling tongue is not of Him and how they had received this tongue by thinking they are receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation or even "again" as if this was another baptism with the Holy Ghost, is not of Him at all. This is defending the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry you felt that was a set up question, but you still do have contrary statements when it comes to praying in tongues which is not consistent with what Paul was writing about which was instructing tongue speakers to pray that the Lord will have the Holy Spirit manifest interpretation from another, because to Paul as a tongue speaker, it was unfruitful. And he is actually refuting what you claim as communication with God the Spirit when Paul admitted he knew not what he was saying; a song? a self edification? a prayer? Paul explained throughout that chapter that tongues was never to come without interpretation because if it did, that person was to be made silent as he was speaking a foreign language that he knew and was out of order, thus not manifested by the Holy Ghost.

There is nothing contradictory in what I wrote. Let's examine: 1 Cor 14:2 (NIV): 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. This verse does not say that anyone who speaks in a tongue when an interpretation is needed, is speaking not to people but to God. It says that the tongue speaker is speaking to God and no interpretation is necessary. I can tell you that that is what happens in my personal devotions as I'm praising God. I'm edified but no interpretation is necessary. I am practising exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2.

Paul also communicates a similar message in 1 Cor 14:27-28 (NIV): '27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God'.

The context this time is 'when you come together' (1 Cor 14:26), the gathering of the church. If a gift of tongues is delivered in the church, it must be interpreted. However, if no interpreter is present the tongue speaker is to keep quiet in the church and speak (in tongues) to himself and to God.

What I'm advocating is perfectly biblical as these Scriptures demonstrate. Do you believe Paul's instruction: 'Do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:39 NIV)?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I would say that they are doing everything wrong when it comes to tongues that is coming without interpretation as it cannot be of the Lord when they preach that tongue by a supernatural encounter separate from salvation or thinking it is another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

JIF,

You are confusing 3 issues:

(1) On the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4), the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues, which consisted of people's native languages (Acts 2:8).
(2) The gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church gathering where the gift of tongues must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation (1 Cor 14:27-28).
(3) The gift of tongues by which a person privately speaks to God (1 Cor 14:2, 28).​

The Pentecostal-charismatics are not doing anything wrong in their use of tongues in prayer. Afterall, Paul states, '14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding' (1 Cor 14:14-15 NIV).

Therefore, in my devotions I will pray with my spirit [tongues] and pray with my mind [in English.

My major issue with the Pentecostal-charismatics is that they have not been taught properly in the exercise of tongues and interpretation, particularly 1 Cor 14. When I walk into such churches and hear the confusion of so many people speaking in tongues, I know that 1 Cor 14 is not being practised in public where the gift of tongues MUST be accompanied by the gift of interpretation, otherwise I'm a foreigner in the meeting (1 Cor 14:11).

Oz

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There is nothing contradictory in what I wrote. Let's examine: 1 Cor 14:2 (NIV): 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. This verse does not say that anyone who speaks in a tongue when an interpretation is needed, is speaking not to people but to God. It says that the tongue speaker is speaking to God and no interpretation is necessary. I can tell you that that is what happens in my personal devotions as I'm praising God. I'm edified but no interpretation is necessary. I am practising exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:2.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

See that first verse? Paul is saying that if any desire spiritual gifts, they should desire the gift of prophesy. Now the reader will think, "why?" The following verses in that chapter is explaining why by comparing prophesy in how it is better than tongues, because throughout that chapter, that same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue talked about throughout that chapter as needing interpretation or the tongue is unfruitful to them as it is to Paul. Paul did not break from that topic in explaining why prophesy is better than tongues, but tongue speakers would rather believe that Paul was making tongues the more preferable choice as if it can come without interpretation.

Paul also communicates a similar message in 1 Cor 14:27-28 (NIV): '27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God'.

The context this time is 'when you come together' (1 Cor 14:26), the gathering of the church. If a gift of tongues is delivered in the church, it must be interpreted. However, if no interpreter is present the tongue speaker is to keep quiet in the church and speak (in tongues) to himself and to God.

What I'm advocating is perfectly biblical as these Scriptures demonstrate. Do you believe Paul's instruction: 'Do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:39 NIV)?

Oz

Do reconsider AND discern again with Him, because as much as readers do take verses out of context, that whole chapter 14 is being taken out of context from chapter 12 as that chapter 12 sets the precedent for how we are to read chapter 14.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Not to profit individually.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Not manifested individually to only profit the individual, because ALL these work together to profit the body withal, thus by his words, Paul is saying tongues manifested by the Holy Ghost will also have interpretation of those tongues as manifested by the Holy Ghost to profit the body withal.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

In regards to the origin of tongues, it is not by seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost separate from salvation nor is it another baptism with the Holy Ghost as Paul is testifying that the manifesting of the gifts is NOT BY drinking another drink of the One Spirit. By testifying otherwise, you changed the testimony that Paul says in verse 13 of what all believers have, and indirectly, you exalt yourself over non tongue speakers by doing so.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.............20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That is pretty much what you are saying when you state that tongues can come without interpretation. It goes contrary to everything Paul said in chapter 12 in how you are reading & applying your tongues into chapter 14.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF,

You are confusing 3 issues:

(1) On the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4), the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues, which consisted of people's native languages (Acts 2:8).
(2) The gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church gathering where the gift of tongues must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation (1 Cor 14:27-28).
(3) The gift of tongues by which a person privately speaks to God (1 Cor 14:2, 28).​

You are misreading and therefore misapplying 1 Corinthians 14:2,28.​

The Pentecostal-charismatics are not doing anything wrong in their use of tongues in prayer. Afterall, Paul states, '14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding' (1 Cor 14:14-15 NIV).

Therefore, in my devotions I will pray with my spirit [tongues] and pray with my mind [in English.

You are overlooking verse 13 for which you are misapplying those verses by, therefore missing the actual message Paul was writing about wherein that tongue he is speaking is to come with interpretation as he set forth that precedent in chapter 12.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

My major issue with the Pentecostal-charismatics is that they have not been taught properly in the exercise of tongues and interpretation, particularly 1 Cor 14. When I walk into such churches and hear the confusion of so many people speaking in tongues, I know that 1 Cor 14 is not being practised in public where the gift of tongues MUST be accompanied by the gift of interpretation, otherwise I'm a foreigner in the meeting (1 Cor 14:11).

Oz

My major issue is the origin of that tongue and how it NEVER comes with interpretation. Some fake tongues by babbling just as some fake interpretation, thinking they can guess what is being said by that babbling. God's actiual gift of tongue is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

Therefore I reject all tongues gained by apostasy when they preach receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation or preach another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues. That is hardly receiving the Holy Ghost by faith in Jesus Christ as promised when seeking to receive Him by a sign. Only an adulterous generation would seek after a sign as Jesus has said. Is the bride being led away from the Bridegroom by seducing spirits?

 

[Webers_Home]

-
● 1Cor 14:4 . . He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

The above is true of someone with the actual gift of tongues only after
they've first obtained the ability to understand the strange words coming out
of their mouth.

● 1Cor 14:13-15 . . Anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may
interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my
mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will
also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my
mind.

But seriously, I don't think the gift of tongues was ever meant for people's
personal use anyway; rather, for outreach.

● 1Cor 14:22 . .Tongues are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers

The sign becomes quite ineffective when the tongue being spoken isn't
familiar to the audience.

● 1Cor 14:23-25 . . So if the whole church comes together and everyone
speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers
come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

The conclusion to draw is that the gift of tongues should be put to use
sensibly and intelligently.

/

 

[Sword]

-
● 1Cor 14:4 . . He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

The above is true of someone with the actual gift of tongues only after
they've first obtained the ability to understand the strange words coming out
of their mouth.

● 1Cor 14:13-15 . . Anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may
interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my
mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will
also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my
mind.

But seriously, I don't think the gift of tongues was ever meant for people's
personal use anyway; rather, for outreach.

● 1Cor 14:22 . .Tongues are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers

The sign becomes quite ineffective when the tongue being spoken isn't
familiar to the audience.

● 1Cor 14:23-25 . . So if the whole church comes together and everyone
speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers
come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

The conclusion to draw is that the gift of tongues should be put to use
sensibly and intelligently.

/

I think you have a neck on you sir. You are expecting dialouge from people here. bUt you made a statement totally contrdicting what Jesus siad. and when I asked you about it you have ignored me 4 times and this one might be the fifth.

Where does scripture tell YOU and only you that you can call a man a fool???????????????????????????

 

[OzSpen]

-
● 1Cor 14:4 . . He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

The above is true of someone with the actual gift of tongues only after
they've first obtained the ability to understand the strange words coming out
of their mouth.
/

Your statement is found nowhere in Scripture. It's your own invention imposed on the text.

 

[Wormwood]

Thank you for your challenging reply. You and I both know that we don't interpret a doctrine based on one proof text. The 'whoever' of John 14:12 needs to be within the boundaries set down by the larger Christian teaching of 1 Cor 12:28-30 (NIV):

28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?​

Do all work miracles? The Greek anticipates a 'no' answer. Do all have gifts of healings? Again, the answer is 'no', based on the Greek grammar. Since the Holy Spirit gives gifts, they are sovereignly his to give.

In John 14:12, Jesus was promoting the continuation of the works of Jesus, including miracles, but there is teaching elsewhere in the NT that sets boundaries on this.




Thanks for clarifying you are not a cessationist. I apologise for putting you in that category.

I have just replied in much detail to your post but lost it in trying to upload as it apparently was more than 10000 characters. I was unaware of this limit.

I don't have the time to reconstruct what I wrote at the moment.

Oz

Yes, I understand Paul is saying not all have every gift. However, I am trying to understand how you can read that text and not expect all people to be able to do greater miracles (whether that include tongues, miracles, knowledge....the gift doesn't have to be the same, one would think. The only qualifier Jesus makes is that they be "greater."). On the other hand, if you are suggesting that Jesus is simply saying some believers would do greater miracles then I dont how your claim differs from what I have been arguing. I guess I don't see the difference as to whether it is a small segment of Christians in certain remote locations or a segment of Christians in a certain era...we both seem to be saying these gifts serve a specific function and are not based on who has enough faith or the proper conditioning to receive these particular gifts.

Personally, I think Jesus was referring to preaching a message that could free a person from sin and grant them the Holy Spirit and eternal life as the "greater gifts." Pretty hard to top raising the dead, walking on water or raising himself from the dead. Ha.

Ah, that stinks. Sorry your lost your post. That has happened to me before as well. Very frustrating. Be blessed, brother.

 

[Wormwood]

I love it when someone is stuck they ask can you raise the dead. They dont believe tounges is for all and now you throw in the anchour. You are shifting start a new thread on that. This is what I said when I peviously accussed you of bring in confusion. Your doing it again without addressing what you cant answer.

I was asking clarifying questions to understand Oz's view. It doesn't seem Oz was confused by my post.

 

[Wormwood]

I would say that they are doing everything wrong when it comes to tongues that is coming without interpretation as it cannot be of the Lord when they preach that tongue by a supernatural encounter separate from salvation or thinking it is another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

First off, they ignored the warning to not believe every spirit, but test them; 1 John 4:1-7 That test is that Jesus Christ is in them as in.. in the flesh presently. So when they confess Jesus Christ as being outside of them and coming over them again, that is apart from our faith and that is not the Holy Ghost bringing God's actual gift of tongues which was for speaking unto the people as 1 John 4:5-6 testify that they will speak the supernatural tongue that the world does speak which is babbling nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Since supernatural tongues can be found in the world as babbling nonsense, how can tongue speakers prevent voodooists & mediums from coming into the churches with their spirits and their tongues? How can the churches guard against those spirits if they believe every spirit that comes over them as being of God if they refuse to discern the spirits by acknowledging that it cannot be the Holy Spirit when He is already within them? Indeed, how can they prove that kind of tongue is from God when teh devil has been using that kind of tongue before Pentecost had come? How is that abstaining from all appearances of evil?

How can a former voodooist or a former medium prove that he has repented from his former sinful practices if he still speak the same kind of tongue? How can the church know if they did? How can these former sinners preach the gospel to voodooists and mediums if they still speak the same kind of tongue? They cannot because that is going against God's words of abstaining from all appearances of evil; therefore it cannot be of the Lord whereas God's actual gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people.... that is all.

This is the falling away from the faith prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as Paul testified of that iniquity already happening in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter as those believers were in danger of a damnation of being left behind as the five foolish virgins at the pre trib rapture event to be received later on after the great tribulation. When Paul reproved this iniquity by reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief f the truth at the hearing of the gospel, this identifies the iniquity as what modern day tongue speakers are involved in when thinking the Holy Spirit can be received separate from salvation or that they can receive Him again with evidence of tongues.

In 2 Thessalonians 3rd chapter, Paul went on addressing those in iniquity as being disorderly as they were not following after the traditions taught of us, and yet in verses 14 & 15, he still calls them brothers and not the enemy as we are to withdraw from the unrepentant to admonish them as brothers.

So let's see the elephant in the room that tongues speakers are engaged in. Can any tongue speaker testity that there were never believers falling down and flopping all over the place like a fish out of water in these events when seeking to receive the "Holy Spirit" " again" if not for the first time? Are there not other outward displays of the flesh when even after having received tongues, they still seek to receive the "Holy Spirit" again?

Jesus testified that no believer, after having received the Holy Spirit, can receive Him again after salvation, otherwise that would make the Father look evil as if He did not give the Holy Spirit the first time as promised at our salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus.

Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Tongue speakers would apply the above verses to mean to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit again and again, ignoring the appearance of evil by it.

Jesus testified that when one os born of the Spirit; that is when they are saved in Jhn 3rd chapter as explained to Nicodemus that when they believe n Him is when they have eternal life as being born of the Spirit means being born again and thus saved. There is no getting around that as Pauls ays;

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In spite of this appearance of evil in these supernatural events in seeking tongues....

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

... you do not see any tongue speaker putting an end to that or an end to the catching of people when they fall back in receiving the "Holy Spirit".

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 12th chapter testifies that the gifts are to profit the body withal, and no one member can say that they have no need of another in relations to these gifts but sure enough, tongue speakers are saying they need no interpretation as if the gift of tongue is a stand alone gift not necessarily for the assembly to profit the body withal. This proves that tongue speakers are reading chapter 14 out of context of chapter 12. let alone ignore 1 Corinthians 12:13 wherein no one with a gift can say they had another drink of the One Spirit apart from salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So once again, this babbling tongue is not of Him and how they had received this tongue by thinking they are receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation or even "again" as if this was another baptism with the Holy Ghost, is not of Him at all. This is defending the faith in Jesus Christ.

JIF, let me provide a very brief response.

First, I don't think the context of 1 John as it relates to false teaching antichrists has anything to do with charismatics and their (in my view, errant) understanding of the gift of tongues. Equating a errant view on a spiritual gift with a false teaching antichrist that leads people away from God is hermeneutically irresponsible, imo.

Second, to compare charismatics with pagan religions because a practice looks or sounds similar is simply ridiculous. Its like saying that churches shouldn't use drums because they are used in pagan worship practices or that Christians who put up a Christmas tree are evil because pagans originated the practice. God looks at the heart and we should not be so quick to judge others when their desire is to worship Jesus Christ.

Finally, charismatics have a wide range of views as it relates to the role of the Holy Spirit as it relates to the gift of tongues. Trying to paint them all with one brush is a mistake on your part.

Again, I disagree with charismatics views on tongues. However, I don't think they are pagan, demonic or evil as a result. I simply think they are mistaken but are genuinely desiring to please and draw near to the Lord. I want to show them the same grace that I want the Lord to show me when he reveals my misunderstandings when I stand before him one day. I urge you to do the same.

 

[perrero]

I think that when it comes to the Gifts of the Godhead, the gift of Speaking in Tongues or many of the other gifts that are available to us, we often have a tendency to interpret these passages without properly researching the subject and verses involved. It is obvious that the author of this thread has preconceived ideas on the subject (opinions) and a somewhat puerile logic that would hamper solid interpretation. (Because a passage does not mention "tongues of angels" then it must mean tongues of men or foreign language.) Many passages of scripture are silent on all kinds of thing and yet one should establish doctrine because of this silence alone.



In this reply I would like to possibly bring clarity on this issue of Gifts.

First of all the Gifts that are mentioned in scripture are given to us by not only the Spirit but also by the two remaining persons of the Godhead, the Father and the Son. This is clearly seen in the 3 verses of (1 Corinthians 12:4, 5, 6).

4 “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
The 9 gifts listed are found sandwiched between verses 7 and 11 which state that they are worked and given by the Spirit alone and divided by His will to all men to profit withal. These 9 gifts are for ministry and for the profit of the assembly, hence the reason why Paul gave many instructions about these gifts in Chap. 14. Let us remember that these gifts are “Manifestations” (Vv. 7) and one of them is Speaking in diverse Tongues. This manifestation is not the same one that we see displayed throughout the book of Acts. (ex. Acts 10, Story of Cornelius) The tongues experiences in Acts are actually the evidence displayed when one is baptized with Holy Ghost and Fire as stated by John the Baptist. I will come back to this later to clarify.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
Found in (Ephesians 4:4-13), we read that Jesus gave to the church gifts for men. They are of an administrative type meant for 7 reasons for the Church.

1) For the perfecting of the saints,
2) for the work of the ministry,
3) for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4) Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
5) and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
6) unto a perfect man,
7)unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.

The next series of gifts are given by the Father to every individual who as walked the planet, for God is not a respecter of persons. These gifts are operational, in other words they operate in our daily lives whether we recognize them or not. Turn to Romans 12 and notice the preamble vv. 1-5 which clearly identifies God, not Jesus, not the Spirit as the one in charge of these gifts.

According to the verse 6 above, it does say that God works them ALL in ALL. You will also notice that as you analyze these 7 gifts that very can “operate” in them but that there may be some discomfort it performing one gift over another. Also you will find that 1 of the 7 gifts in you is more dominant than the others. Each individual has one gift more dominant than the other 6. In the world today people notice this dominant gift in others and have coined idioms to compliment them. Matter of fact our dominant gift has probably made many decision for us in our life. If your dominant gift serving, would you volunteer to lead the choir. And trust me, if you’re a server, you know what I mean. I know for myself I have much work to do in showing mercy, I hate hospitals and funeral parlours. But give me some chalk and a blackboard and I’ll teach a crowd of a thousand. The idea is that God gave us all 7 and He wants us to hone them all perfectly because there will be times that they don’t need a teacher at the moment but maybe the church needs an exhorter. We are to become like Christ who was the perfect embodiment of all 7 gifts.

1) Prophecy (to proclaim) “He/She has the gift of gab”
2) Serving “There is nothing he/she wouldn’t do”
3) Teaching “He/she is always in the books”, “Head in the cloud”, “He/she is very opinionated”
4) Exhorting “There’s not a negative bone in his/her body”
5) Giving “He would give you the shirt of his back.”
6) Ruling “He/she is a born leader.”
7) Showing Mercy “She wears her heart on her sleeve.”

So when trying to interpret a particular verse on the subject of Gifts, you want to be aware of the division of these, their function and the giver.

PART 1

Ciao! 4 now

 

[OzSpen]

My major issue is the origin of that tongue and how it NEVER comes with interpretation. Some fake tongues by babbling just as some fake interpretation, thinking they can guess what is being said by that babbling. God's actiual gift of tongue is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

JIF,

How do you know they are FAKE tongues?

How do you know it is BABBLING when the Holy Spirit does not call it such in 1 Cor 12-14?

The Holy Spirit's gift of tongues is a genuine gift that Paul exhorts us: 'do not forbid speaking in tongues' 1 Cor 14:39). Nowhere does he speak of speaking in tongues as babble. That is the imposition of JIF on the text.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I was asking clarifying questions to understand Oz's view. It doesn't seem Oz was confused by my post.

Wormwood,

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post when I have the time. I'm pursuing preparing Bible study material for a group and discipling a new Christian while I grow older.

Oz