The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[BarneyFife]

The meaning of keeping the Sabbath with the Pharisees was not shared with the meaning of the day with Jesus. He was about healing and loving and they were about rituals and laws about Sabbath day. Jesus honoured that day. Just not the way the religious people did. His heart was always the same.

Isa 1:
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.




I disagree. The people gung ho on keeping the law and rituals and such do make out like they are doing something that God requires of us.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I don't mind if some are weak. Or if some can't eat meat. The problem is when they offer their weakness as strength.

Instead of trying to steer and control the narrative of the discussion or implying insult, why don't you just try to address some of the points of the comments you quoted?

 

[dad]

Instead of trying to steer and control the narrative of the discussion or implying insult, why don't you just try to address some of the points of the comments you quoted?

By showing that rituals and laws are not really the spirit of the law I did that. Any other point?

 

[BarneyFife]

By showing that rituals and laws are not really the spirit of the law I did that. Any other point?

Yes, these, none of which you addressed directly:

There is no need to make anything seem any way.

Sabbath-keepers didn't place the 4th commandment where it is.

God did that.

And rarely will you find a Sabbath-keeper implying that those who don't keep the Sabbath don't know Him.

Too bad that doesn't go both ways.

All you did is deflect them with your oxn agenda.

What difference does it make how Jesus kept the Sabbath if, as you indicate, it is not something God requires of us?

And how is suggesting that Sabbath-keeping is something that God requires of Christians the same as implying that those who do not do so don't know Jesus?

And how does informing other people that as recently as 70 years ago virtually everyone, Christians and non-believers alike, knew that there were 10 Commandments and that no one expected a 10‰ discount somehow mean that they are "gung ho" about keeping the Sabbath?

I think these are honest questions that deserve honest answers, and being the honest Christian I expect you are, I'm confident we're going to see you answer them honestly, directly, and without any hint of evasiveness.

 

[dad]

What difference does it make how Jesus kept the Sabbath if, as you indicate, it is not something God requires of us?

Good question. I did give a verse from Isa showing how He hates ritual celebration rather than love. I am not the one peddling holy day observances, not working, no movies, etc etc etc.

And how is suggesting that Sabbath-keeping is something that God requires of Christians the same as implying that those who do not do so don't know Jesus?

If one means by 'sabbath keeping' that one harps on Sat and adds a list of things we should do on that day, sorry, I do not take that as a sign of knowing His heart well.

And how does informing other people that as recently as 70 years ago virtually everyone, Christians and non-believers alike, knew that there were 10 Commandments and that no one expected a 10‰ discount somehow mean that they are "gung ho" about keeping the Sabbath?

There are commandments and laws and holy days. All great stuff. Don't put the cart before the horse, and remember the main thing is to love Jesus all days. If you esteem Sat or some other day more than the rest, do not expect me to share that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jewish Chabad cannot help you with Christian questions and answers. That which is spiritual transcends that which is moral. Morality pertains to right or wrong. Spirituality pertains to an INTERNAL relationship with God and Christ. So how can worship be called "ceremonial", which only pertains to EXTERNAL observances?

The Laws of the O.T. were Jewish, not Christian.
The queston to Chabad would be pertaining to the Jewish Laws.

I'm unable to find a list of the Laws. I used to have it.
The following is the best I can do. You'll see that the Sabbath is considered a Ceremonial Law and not a Moral Law, as is every other commandment.

Three Old Testament Law Categories - Ceremonial - Civil - Moral

What are the main divisions of the Old Testament Law?

What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I wasn't intimating you were Catholic. But your trust and reference to the ECFs is very Catholic, and in particular your claim that the bibles put together under Constantine's sponsorship is somehow a great historical signpost that requires our devotion to it's designers is also very Catholic. As I said, the church did not need those bibles for the first 300 years of it's existence, nor did they need the writings of the ECFs , nor did they need them after 300ad. In fact, a little research would discover that the two remaining ancient copies that many modern bibles are derived, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, were vestiges of those 50, and are inherently flawed and adulterated. Even in their original form highly suspect. Oldest does not necessarily mean better.

Yes, I do have trust in the Early Church Fathers.
They were closer to Jesus than any modern day preacher that sometimes states doctrine that the ECFs did NOT believe.
I trust them more.

The CC was, in fact, the first church. Unfortunately it did not remain "pure" and in keeping with what the early fathers believed, but changed over the centuries until it was no longer recongnizable. I can still appreciate that it was pure at its beginning.

It was the CC that gathered the gospels and letters that went into the N.T.
This cannot be denied...it's simple history.

I agree with you that the letters were circulation and being copied for the first centuries.
However, I disagree that they did not need the writings of the ECFs. These were very much needed since the gospels/letters were not even chosen yet and the church needed to grow. The early fathers were respected and their directions were followed. I allude here to the Bishops of the churches scattered throughout the West and the East.

I'm not sure about "oldest does not mean better"...
We do know more today about the culture and thus hermeneutics...
however, as time went on the original manuscripts became more and more corrupted...
I'm not competent to answer this.

 

[GodsGrace]

On that premise then we can make anything up and claim... Jesus taught it but no-one wrote it down.
Whoever of the Christian faith who began to set aside Sunday as a holy day I am sure did so having the best intentions. But they did not do so as a result of any instruction or example by the apostles.

Everything important WAS written down...Did I say the opposite??
Otherwise it would be as you've stated.
But the N.T. offers us clues...
and the Didache mentions worshipping on the Day of the Lord, which would have been Sunday.
The Didache was thought to have been written between about 90 and 120AD.
Scholars now believe it was probably around 90AD.
John was still alive.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a pretty poor argument, considering the apostles personally taught many individuals who unfortunately became apostates and joined the counterfeit Christian movement. Just because someone was personally taught by an apostle, it doesn't automatically make them an authority on Christian doctrine. Paul personally taught the ministers in Ephesus, and at least some of them became apostates(Acts 20:29-30). Satan was personally taught in Heaven by the Creator of the Universe, and look at what happened to him: he became the original apostate.

Well, you said it: Some joined the COUNTERFEIT Christian movement.
The ECFs that we read were not counterfeit.
Who do you think was teaching the early Christians?
Do you think they went to service on Sunday and someone read from the Bible?
There was no bible.

And using that whole "they assembled the Bible, so you must listen to them" retort is such a lazy counterargument. They didn't write the Bible, they didn't assemble it, and their writings were not inspired, therefore they are not authorities on what makes anything Christian.
Let's see if God approves of people leaning on their own conscience for moral direction:

"O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps." - Jer. 10:23

Are you sure as to who wrote the gospels? Or the letters?
Who do YOU think assembled the bible?
Their writings were not inspired?
I hear preachers preach stuff written in books by today's authors...are THEY inspired?
Yes, the ECFs were authorities on all things Christian..
or you're going to have to tell us who was.

A person who truly believes what the Bible says would have to admit that He doesn't.
Backlit answered the question. The God that spoke all 10 of those commandments from Sinai was none other than the One who became Jesus in the NT. Anything He stated as the OT God holds just as true as anything He said as a human being in the NT, especially because He didn't spend His earthly ministry contradicting His OT statements. As both a human being and the OT God, Jesus said "man shall live by every word that came from the mouth of God"(Deut. 8:3, Matt. 4:4, Luk. 4:4).

Call me crazy, but the Sabbath command came from His mouth and not Moses', did it not?

You should worship on the Sabbath if this is what your conscience tells you.
But do you also do everything else that came out of the mouth of God in the O.T.?
I doubt it.

 

[quietthinker]

Everything important WAS written down...Did I say the opposite??
Otherwise it would be as you've stated.
But the N.T. offers us clues...
and the Didache mentions worshipping on the Day of the Lord, which would have been Sunday.
The Didache was thought to have been written between about 90 and 120AD.
Scholars now believe it was probably around 90AD.
John was still alive.

the expression 'Day of the Lord' is assumed to be Sunday because as you know it is argued from the point of the resurrection but the association is incorrect. Jesus tells us which day he is Lord of .....the context is indisputable.

 

[GEN2REV]

The heart of the gospel is that it was all leading to Jesus. Setting the captives free in Egypt was just a step along the way.

The Exodus was never even brought up as a comparison in this debate. It was the dramatic events at Mt. Sinai and the Crucifixion that were being compared.

Crucifixion = Most important event in history.

Mt. Sinai (the giving of the 10 Commandments) = Most dramatic and cataclysmic event in history.
(For a reason!)

 

[Abigail]

when you said 'If they're not forever does that mean we can do now?' I assumed you had in mind breaking some of the Commandments and was asking the question which ones you had in mind.

I was referring to the pov of other here. The ten commandments no longer apply. And asking, if they are not forever does this mean we can do what we were told we shalt not before?

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, I do have trust in the Early Church Fathers.

Seeing they disagreed with one another, which ones would you choose?

The CC was, in fact, the first church.

Nonsense. The Catholic Church didn't become an institutional body until it became united to the state and relied on state power to advance it's dogmas. Prior to that the church in Rome was no more nor less important in stature or influence than the churches in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Pella, or any of the churches elsewhere.

. I allude here to the Bishops of the churches scattered throughout the West and the East.

The bishops elsewhere did not agree nor adhere to the corrupting influences of the Roman church, as they, at least until the Roman church had the power to persecute them for doing so, still observed the 7th day Sabbath for many centuries. As historians have clearly taught.

the Didache mentions worshipping on the Day of the Lord, which would have been Sunday.

Why? The Didache is now scripture? Where in the Bible is the Lord's day ever referenced as being the 1st day of the week?

 

[GodsGrace]

the expression 'Day of the Lord' is assumed to be Sunday because as you know it is argued from the point of the resurrection but the association is incorrect. Jesus tells us which day he is Lord of .....the context is indisputable.

How is it indisputable?
Some believe The Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns.

Do you have some scripture?

 

[GodsGrace]

Seeing they disagreed with one another, which ones would you choose?

Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr
Clement of Alexandria
Polycarp
Inenaeus
and some more, up to 325AD

Nonsense. The Catholic Church didn't become an institutional body until it became united to the state and relied on state power to advance it's dogmas. Prior to that the church in Rome was no more nor less important in stature or influence than the churches in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Pella, or any of the churches elsewhere.

The churches in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rome and Constantinople were the 5 big regions.
They each had a Bishop, which was called a Pope, which was a term of endearment, and the church was the Universal or Catholic Church.

Which church do YOU believe was the first church?
Assembly of God
Church of Christ
Nazarene
Baptist
etc....

The bishops elsewhere did not agree nor adhere to the corrupting influences of the Roman church, as they, at least until the Roman church had the power to persecute them for doing so, still observed the 7th day Sabbath for many centuries. As historians have clearly taught.

The 7th Day was NOT observed for centuries.
Maybe you could post something?

Why? The Didache is now scripture? Where in the Bible is the Lord's day ever referenced as being the 1st day of the week?

Actually, the Didache almost made it into the Bible, and I wish it had been.
Also Barnabas and Hermes.

The following will be interesting to those that liked your last question...

Lord's Day - Wikipedia.[/QUOTE]

 

[Enoch111]

You'll see that the Sabbath is considered a Ceremonial Law and not a Moral Law, as is every other commandment.

Go by spiritual discernment. What did Christ do on Sabbath days? Empty ceremonies?

 

[Brakelite]

The 7th Day was NOT observed for centuries.

Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

"When you are in Rome, do as Rome does." —Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan gave rise to this proverb by stating that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome he observed Sunday.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

"In the last half of that century (4th) St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira (3005ad) reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

Persia-A.D. 335-375

"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

Council Laodicea - A.D.365

"Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6.

Let me jump a few centuries to save time and space...

Scotland and Ireland 7th century

Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, says: It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of week." "The Church in Scotland," p.140.



Scotland 10th century

"They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a Sabbatical manner." A history of Scotland from the Roman Occupation, Vol. I, p.96. Andrew Lang

Church Of The East - Kurdistan

"The Nestorians eat no pork and keep the Sabbath. They believe in neither auricular confession nor purgatory." Schaff-Herzog, "The New Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge," art. "Nestorians."

Waldenses

"And because they observed no other day of rest but the Sabbath days, they called them Insabathas, as much as to say, as they observed no Sabbath." Luther's "Fore-Runners" (original spelling), PP. 7, 8

Roman Catholic writers try to evade the apostolic origin of the Waldenses, so as to make it appear that the Roman is the only apostolic church, and that all others are later novelties. And for this reason they try to make out that the Waldenses originated with Peter Waldo of the twelfth century. Dr. Peter Allix says:

"Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them...It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo...it is a pure forgery." Ancient Church of Piedmont, pp.192, Oxford: 1821

"It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they were called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt." "Id., p. 182

On the other hand, he "was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys." History of the Christian Church, William Jones, Vol II, p.2

I could go on, every century having evidence of Sabbath observance. And every century having evidence of the Catholic church's hatred for the Sabbath, and her determination to get rid of it, and persecute Sabbath observers. Just as Christians on this forum attempt to do every time it comes up in discussion.

 

[quietthinker]

How is it indisputable?
Some believe The Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns.

Do you have some scripture?

Matthew 12:1-8
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ a you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

 

[dad]

The Exodus was never even brought up as a comparison in this debate. It was the dramatic events at Mt. Sinai and the Crucifixion that were being compared.

Yes. I brought it up. The whole thing (Sinai,exodus,etc) was all leading up to Jesus. His death, the sacrifice of God Almighty as a man on earth for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life to those that ask, is the greatest event by far. Moses throwing a hissy fit and breaking tablets etc is just a step on the way. That is what the gospel is all about, not laws!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. I brought it up. The whole thing (Sinai,exodus,etc) was all leading up to Jesus. His death, the sacrifice of God Almighty as a man on earth for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life to those that ask, is the greatest event by far. Moses throwing a hissy fit and breaking tablets etc is just a step on the way. That is what the gospel is all about, not laws!

Dad, I agree with what you've stated above.
I'll also say that it's faith that has always saved a person and the atonement is what allows us into heaven since nothing impure will be allowed to enter. Jesus's atoning sacrifice is what allows everyone to be saved/worthy,,,past, present and future. This is why we say that He died for the whole world.

I haven't read every post so I apologize if I'm repeating, but you say we're no longer under the law.
Do you mean the Commanments?
We're required to obey the moral law, the law of Christ would cover them, the 2 great commandments.

What does it mean to you that we are not under the law but under grace?

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 12:1-8
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ a you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Does this mean that we are not obligated to observe the 7th day?

It seems that way to me.
Also, paul reiterated that we should not allow ourselves to be judged as to diet or feast day keeping.