The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[GodsGrace]

Maybe a compromise position would be to say we are required to try to obey laws. We are not required to pretend we succeeded.

I'm good with that.
We definitely do not succeed.

I see what you mean.
By saying that we are required to obey, it sounds like we are not allowed by God to fail.
I try to put in parenthesis that we're to obey to the best of our ability, but sometimes I forget.

Is your statement copywrited?
I plan to use it !

 

[dad]

I'm good with that.
We definitely do not succeed.

I see what you mean.
By saying that we are required to obey, it sounds like we are not allowed by God to fail.
I try to put in parenthesis that we're to obey to the best of our ability, but sometimes I forget.

Is your statement copywrited?
I plan to use it !

You got it. We don't want to make it look impossible to have the free gift of eternal life.

PS use it all you like.

 

[Brakelite]

Most of Christianity worships on Sunday -- there must be a reason for this.

Most of the world worship themselves. There must be a reason for that.

Again, if the Apostles believed it would, I'm sure they would have stated it clearly,
just as other topics of salvation are clearly stated. (for instance,,,our belief, our behavior).

Have you considered that the reason why the aisles never spoke of Sunday worship either negatively or positively was because everyone observed the Sabbath? There's not even any record in scripture of the Pharisees and scribes accusing the early church of desecrating the Sabbath, but they sure lit into the church about circumcision. Maybe because the church observed the Sabbath the Jews had no issue with the church?

 

[Brakelite]

We are required to love God as He loves us. He said whosever believes will have eternal life. I would not want to blow people away telling them all the laws they need to keep to be (or continue to be) a believer. Once He comes in, He works on all that.

I posted this previously

"Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you,.... Some understand this of faith, which this apostle calls a commandment, 1 John 3:23; but it rather intends the commandment of love, especially to the brethren, of which the apostle says the same things as here in his second epistle, 1 John 2:5; and this sense agrees both with what goes before and follows after, and is a considerable branch of the commandments of Christ to be kept, and of walking as he walked; and the word "brethren", prefixed to this account, may direct to, and strengthen this sense, though the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions read, "beloved"; and so the Alexandrian copy, and others: and this commandment is said to be not a new one,

-The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning; or this ancient law of love is contained in, and enforced by that word or doctrine which was delivered from the beginning of time; and which these saints had heard of, concerning the seed of the woman's bruising the serpent's head, which includes the work of redemption and salvation by Christ, atonement by his sacrifice, forgiveness of sin through his blood, and justification by his righteousness, than which nothing can more powerfully engage to love God, and Christ, and one another; and which is also strongly encouraged by the word of God and Gospel of Christ, which they had heard, and had a spiritual and saving knowledge of, from the time they were effectually called by the grace of God:

Again, a new commandment I write unto you,.... Which is the same with the former, considered in different respects. The command of brotherly love is a new one; that is, it is an excellent one, as a new name is an excellent name, and a new song is an excellent one; it is renewed by Christ under the Gospel dispensation; it is newly explained by him, and purged from the false glosses of the Scribes and Pharisees; see Matthew 5:43; and enforced by him with a new argument, and by a new example of his own, even his own love to his people; and which is observed by them in a new manner, they being made new creatures; and this law being anew written in their hearts, under the renewing work of the Spirit of God, as a branch of the new covenant of grace; see John 13:34. The Jews c expect תורה חדשה, "a new law" to be given them by the bands of the Messiah; and a new one he has given, even the new commandment of love, and which is the fulfilling of the law."

1 John 2 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Also this
"And so here: the token, that we have the knowledge of Him, is present, if , posito that) we keep (pres., as a habit, from time to time, ἐντολαί being necessarily prescriptions regarding circumstances as they arise) His commandments (first as to the expression. St. John never uses the word νόμος for the rule of Christian obedience: this word is reserved for the Mosaic law, John 1:17 ; John 1:46 , and in all, fifteen times in the Gospel: but almost always ἐντολαί , sometimes λόγος θεοῦ or χριστοῦ , John 8:51 f., John 14:23 f., John 17:6 , our 1 John 2:5 . And as a verb he always uses τηρεῖν , very seldom ποιεῖν (only in the two controverted places, ch. 1 John 5:4 , Rev 22:14 v. r.: ch. 1Jn 1:6 , 1Jn 2:17 are not cases in point). τηρεῖν keeps its peculiar meaning of watching , guarding as some precious thing, “observing to keep.” Next, whose commandments? The older expositors for the most part refer αὐτόν , αὐτοῦ , αὐτῷ , 1 John 2:3-6 , to Christ: so Aug [15] , Episcop., Grot., Luther, Seb.-Schmidt, Calov., Wolf, Lange, Bengel, Sander, Neander. Socinus inclines to this view, but doubtfully; Erasmus understands αὐτός 1 John 2:3-4 , of God, αὐτός and ἐκεῖνος 1 John 2:5-6 , of Christ."
1 John 2 - Alford's Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

You speak a great deal about love, and rightly so. Love is absolutely the benchmark for the Christian disciple. All the heart, soul, mind, and body. Self sacrificial love is the true mind of Christ which we profess to have.
Question.
Does love therefore exclude obedience, or make obedience obligatory? The more we love God, the more, or less, we would obey God's Commandments? What do you think?

 

[dad]

You speak a great deal about love, and rightly so. Love is absolutely the benchmark for the Christian disciple. All the heart, soul, mind, and body. Self sacrificial love is the true mind of Christ which we profess to have.
Question.
Does love therefore exclude obedience, or make obedience obligatory? The more we love God, the more, or less, we would obey God's Commandments? What do you think?

Love IS obedience. The more we love, the more we obey.

 

[Brakelite]

Love IS obedience. The more we love, the more we obey.

Good answer. So as scripture says, love is the fulfilling of the law right?
Further question. Why is it that those who claim love as the ultimate Christian experience and practice, so often search diligently for reasons not to obey the 4th commandment? After all, there is no scriptural basis for abandoning any of God Commandments are there, so why the hesitancy do you think?

 

[dad]

Good answer. So as scripture says, love is the fulfilling of the law right?
Further question. Why is it that those who claim love as the ultimate Christian experience and practice, so often search diligently for reasons not to obey the 4th commandment? After all, there is no scriptural basis for abandoning any of God Commandments are there, so why the hesitancy do you think?

If we love we do obey all commandments. Loving God on holy days could mean violating some laws that some people think the holy day are all about. Putting Him first can be done in many ways on any days.

 

[Brakelite]

If we love we do obey all commandments. Loving God on holy days could mean violating some laws that some people think the holy day are all about. Putting Him first can be done in many ways on any days.

But obedience is fairly simple don't you think? I mean, when God gave the Commandments to Moses 4000 odd years ago, He knew what circumstances, what conditions, what state of mind mankind would be in today right? Yet He didn't add provisos, addendums, caveats, or loopholes on the reverse side of the tablets to offer us an excuse to hide behind. Yep, obeying God on His holy day is a reflection of how much we love Him. But we needn't imagine or wonder what is required. It's right there in the commandment. Remember to keep the day holy. And He tells us how we do that. We rest. It doesn't actually say anything about worship, sacrifices, or doing cartwheels to please Him or anyone else. Isaiah 58 tells it liked it is. It's beautifully simple, elegant, and inspirational.
KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It saddens me that contributors to this thread have more than intimated that observing the Sabbath is some sort of a burden, or sacrifice, or hard labor. Even worse is the suggestion, offered as an excuse for their own ignorance, that Sabbath keepers are earning their way to salvation. As Isaiah said. The Sabbath can be a delight. A time spent enjoying the presence of God. A time of true rest and peace and joy...a taste of heaven for a full 24 hours once every week. Sunday keepers truly have little to no idea what they are missing out on.

 

[mailmandan]

Sadly, some people refuse to accept that the 10 commandments
were a ministry of death and not a ministry of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written andengraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

Israel made the same fatal error.

Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

 

[GodsGrace]

But obedience is fairly simple don't you think? I mean, when God gave the Commandments to Moses 4000 odd years ago, He knew what circumstances, what conditions, what state of mind mankind would be in today right? Yet He didn't add provisos, addendums, caveats, or loopholes on the reverse side of the tablets to offer us an excuse to hide behind. Yep, obeying God on His holy day is a reflection of how much we love Him. But we needn't imagine or wonder what is required. It's right there in the commandment. Remember to keep the day holy. And He tells us how we do that. We rest. It doesn't actually say anything about worship, sacrifices, or doing cartwheels to please Him or anyone else. Isaiah 58 tells it liked it is. It's beautifully simple, elegant, and inspirational.
KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It saddens me that contributors to this thread have more than intimated that observing the Sabbath is some sort of a burden, or sacrifice, or hard labor. Even worse is the suggestion, offered as an excuse for their own ignorance, that Sabbath keepers are earning their way to salvation. As Isaiah said. The Sabbath can be a delight. A time spent enjoying the presence of God. A time of true rest and peace and joy...a taste of heaven for a full 24 hours once every week. Sunday keepers truly have little to no idea what they are missing out on.

You and @dad are having a nice conversation.
What came to mind is that some of the law of Moses Was changed...you have heard it said, and then Jesus gave what God wants.

Re your other post to me which goes along with this,,,yes, I have considered your reason why scripture does not mention change and it's a valid point.

But the change happened while some Apostles were still alive and certainly those they taught were alive.
Is it Acts 20 that states that they met on the first day of the week to break bread...

Surely this does not mean a shared meal as someone here has suggested. They ate together a lot, why mention the first day, plus ot sounds like this happened every week.

I do dislike this discussion since it has nothing to do with salvation, IMO, and just serves to divide.
So, I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[BarneyFife]

Sadly, some people refuse to accept that the 10 commandments
were a ministry of death and not a ministry of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written andengraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

Could you explain what it means for the ten commandments to be the ministry of death? Perhaps you could give examples of other passages of Scripture that describe how the ten commandments minister death to us?

 

[JesusFan1]

Could you explain what it means for the ten commandments to be the ministry of death? Perhaps you could give examples of other passages of Scripture that describe how the ten commandments minister death to us?

The Law itself is perfect, but we are fallen sinners, and as such, all that it could give was condemnation and death to us as being judged guilty of breaking it, but praise be to God now under new Covenant of grace have eternal life and justification!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Legalistic? Is abstaining from adultery legalistic?

Only if the one abstaining thinks he is made righteous in God's sight (justified) by his obedient abstention.

Noah was commanded to build a boat in order to be saved. He built that boat, and was saved. He was saved by grace...

He was justified (made righteous in God's sight) by his faith, not his obedience. His obedience only justified him in regard to showing him to already be righteous in God's sight.

...but according to your theological reasoning, he should have been condemned because he obeyed God's Commandment and was a legalist... Working for his salvation.

No, that is not my theology.
My theology is he would have been condemned if he was obedient in order to make himself righteous in God's sight instead of his obedience showing himself to already be righteous through his faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Could you explain what it means for the ten commandments to be the ministry of death? Perhaps you could give examples of other passages of Scripture that describe how the ten commandments minister death to us?

Do you not know, or are you testing him?

 

[dad]

But obedience is fairly simple don't you think? I mean, when God gave the Commandments to Moses 4000 odd years ago, He knew what circumstances, what conditions, what state of mind mankind would be in today right? Yet He didn't add provisos, addendums, caveats, or loopholes on the reverse side of the tablets to offer us an excuse to hide behind.

Hey Moses broke the every commandment before he got down off the mountain!

Yep, obeying God on His holy day is a reflection of how much we love Him.

Believing and loving Him is obeying. He wants mercy, not dutiful sacrifice.

But we needn't imagine or wonder what is required. It's right there in the commandment. Remember to keep the day holy.

Your idea of keeping it holy and mine are likely not the same.

And He tells us how we do that. We rest.

Again, resting in the Lord need not be sitting around motionless. Maybe He put someone in your life, or some job that requires a little motion.

It doesn't actually say anything about worship, sacrifices, or doing cartwheels to please Him or anyone else. Isaiah 58 tells it liked it is. It's beautifully simple, elegant, and inspirational.

Sometimes I think people agree but later find out they really meant something else. So far it seems like we agree.

KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

That is what getting saved and having Him in us is all about. Just insert 'your life' where it says 'my holy day'. Every day is a holy day for us.

It saddens me that contributors to this thread have more than intimated that observing the Sabbath is some sort of a burden, or sacrifice, or hard labor. Even worse is the suggestion, offered as an excuse for their own ignorance, that Sabbath keepers are earning their way to salvation. As Isaiah said. The Sabbath can be a delight. A time spent enjoying the presence of God. A time of true rest and peace and joy...a taste of heaven for a full 24 hours once every week. Sunday keepers truly have little to no idea what they are missing out on.

Life can be "a delight. A time spent enjoying the presence of God. A time of true rest and peace and joy...a taste of heaven for"..every night and day in your life and forevermore.

 

[JesusFan1]

Hey Moses broke the every commandment before he got down off the mountain!

Believing and loving Him is obeying. He wants mercy, not dutiful sacrifice.


Your idea of keeping it holy and mine are likely not the same.
Again, resting in the Lord need not be sitting around motionless. Maybe He put someone in your life, or some job that requires a little motion.
Sometimes I think people agree but later find out they really meant something else. So far it seems like we agree.

That is what getting saved and having Him in us is all about. Just insert 'your life' where it says 'my holy day'. Every day is a holy day for us.
Life can be "a delight. A time spent enjoying the presence of God. A time of true rest and peace and joy...a taste of heaven for"..every night and day in your life and forevermore.

I have NO problem when one wants to keep the Sabbath as Holy, but have big issues when they seek to impose that upon all as a condition of salvation!

 

[dad]

I have NO problem when one wants to keep the Sabbath as Holy, but have big issues when they seek to impose that upon all as a condition of salvation!

Of course. We do not want others laying heavy burdens on us that they can't lift themselves-or even if they could lift them themselves. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

 

[JesusFan1]

Of course. We do not want others laying heavy burdens on us that they can't lift themselves-or even if they could lift them themselves. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Peter stated that the jews themselves could not ever keep the law and all of its requirements, so why try to enforce that byrden upon Gentiles, and place them also under a yoke of bondage?

 

[dad]

Peter stated that the jews themselves could not ever keep the law and all of its requirements, so why try to enforce that byrden upon Gentiles, and place them also under a yoke of bondage?

I guess they look at laws in the old testament and figure they need to keep all those too, to be extra saintly, or even a Christian?

 

[BarneyFife]

I have NO problem when one wants to keep the Sabbath as Holy, but have big issues when they seek to impose that upon all as a condition of salvation!

How is it possible for someone to impose something on another as a condition of salvation? I hear this all the time and it makes absolutely no sense to me.