The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[Pearl]

Clearly it's very important if you'd go to such desperate lengths to pretend in front of all the world that it didn't happen. It must be a world-beater of a question that you refuse to even admit it exists.

It's ok though, we're all embarrassed for you and we'll pretend, along with you, that it never happened.

Your face and credibility are obliterated, but most will forget.

In time.

Here is the question that devastated Pearl's ability to continue in this debate:
Simple. Easily provable. World-shattering for those who claim the 10 Commandments were nailed to the Cross.

10 Commandments win again.

So you're embarrassed and so you should be - what a very rude post. I thought you were a brother in Christ but perhaps not. Or maybe you're a misogynist. But I forgive you.

 

[GEN2REV]

]Unfortunately it's just not that simple, Ferris.

In regard to Paul's particular definition of 'justified', yes, it is that simple.

We all agree that no one is justified (becomes righteous) by works of the law. And so it is in regard to that definition of 'justified' that sabbath keeping is very much outlawed. No one under any circumstances is allowed to keep the sabbath law, or any other law, in order to become righteous before God. It is absolutely forbidden in that regard. No debate required. If we could just meet on that common ground we could be at peace with one another. The problem is, the law keeping denominations believe that laws like the 4th commandment do justify, but in regard to James's particular definition of 'justified' that he is addressing - showing oneself to be righteous. That is where the rub is, but Paul addresses that matter, too, in his letter to the Galatians. But it should not be a point of division or contention among us who agree that no law keeping whatsoever causes one to become righteous before God.

I cleared every bit of this post you just posted completely up in my previous post to you. That's why you only quoted my one single sentence of it.

If we could just meet on the common ground that you couldn't be more wrong, we could be at peace. Now, are you willing to do that or do you insist on continuing to kick at the goads?

Does it make any sense at all that God would "FORBID" just ONE of His original Commandments, but all the rest are ok?

If you could just admit that makes no sense at all, we could pack it up and call it a day.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's why you only quoted my one single sentence of it.

I will address the rest when I get home.
I do not make long posts so that people will read them.

 

[GEN2REV]

... if the covenant, and laws, changed upon (Jesus') death, why did His disciples continue to obey the 10 Commandments?

They were Jewish and also Christ's disciples so they kept the commandments Jesus gave them which, as I've posted before:

Mark 12:30-32
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Your new name is Roger, Pearl.

Can you guess why?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Does it make any sense at all that God would "FORBID" just ONE of His original Commandments, but all the rest are ok?

Did you not read my post?
God has in fact forbidden the 4th commandment, and ALL commandments, to be kept for the reason of becoming righteous in his sight. You can literally keep the 4th one if you want, but not for the reason of becoming righteous in his sight. You know this. We ALL know this. This is our common ground.

 

[BarneyFife]

In regard to Paul's particular definition of 'justified', yes, it is that simple.

We all agree that no one is justified (becomes righteous) by works of the law. And so it is in regard to that definition of 'justified' that sabbath keeping is very much outlawed. No one under any circumstances is allowed to keep the sabbath law, or any other law, in order to become righteous before God. It is absolutely forbidden in that regard. No debate required. If we could just meet on that common ground we could be at peace with one another. The problem is, the law keeping denominations believe that laws like the 4th commandment do justify, but in regard to James's particular definition of 'justified' that he is addressing - showing oneself to be righteous. That is where the rub is, but Paul addresses that matter, too, in his letter to the Galatians. But it should not be a point of division or contention among us who agree that no law keeping whatsoever causes one to become righteous before God.

Agreed. That is, unless God requires us to keep the Sabbath for some reason other than justification.

 

[GEN2REV]

... what a very rude post. I thought you were a brother in Christ but perhaps not. Or maybe you're a misogynist. But I forgive you.

You've shown yourself to be a blatantly dishonest person and that is darkness.

You've repeatedly taken very manipulative measures and that is darkness.

What fellowship does light have with darkness?
2 Corinthians 6:14

 

[Pearl]

...for justification.

As long as both sides of the argument understand this we can all live in peace. Sabbath keeping never got outlawed outright except in regard to the matter of justification.

I believe any day of the week can be your sabbath. In today's world resting on a Sunday is not always possible. but I believe so long as we are taking one day a week to rest from our labours it doesn't really matter which one. i never found Sundays very restful as it was all go from the moment of getting up, getting ready and then getting to the meeting on time and in good humour. No when I was working Thursday used to be my sabbath- the day I rested - and I made a point of keeping it; no housework chores on a Thursday but a day to re-charge my 'batteries' for the rest of the week.

Obviously some will strongly disagree but it's okay. We just have different view points.

 

[GEN2REV]

Did you not read my post?
God has in fact forbidden the 4th commandment, and ALL commandments, to be kept for the reason of becoming righteous in his sight. You can literally keep the 4th one if you want, but not for the reason of becoming righteous in his sight. You know this. We ALL know this. This is our common ground.

And, as I've stated so many times in this thread, I'd now like you to please quote ANYBODY'S post in this entire thread who ever once claimed that the 10 Commandments must be obeyed for justification or salvation.

I look forward to that post from you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Agreed. That is, unless God requires us to keep the Sabbath for some reason other than justification.

And that is where the contention lies.
There are two aspects of 'justification'. The aspect Paul addresses, and the aspect James addresses. No one disagrees on the aspect of justification that Paul addresses - becoming righteous in God's sight. The contention lies on whether or not literal sabbath keeping is among the deeds that James says justify a person. We know from Galatians that it is not. But it's not a hill worth dying for...unless a person keeps a literal sabbath to the exclusion of and in ignorance of the works that really do justify a person. That is the danger of the sabbath keeping argument. And as far as that danger goes, I'm of the opinion you just alert someone to that danger and then you just let them do with it what they will.

 

[Pearl]

Your new name is Roger, Pearl.

Can you guess why?

I've no idea but I suspect it will be rude and demeaning.

 

[Pearl]

You've shown yourself to be a blatantly dishonest person and that is darkness.

You've repeatedly taken very manipulative measures and that is darkness.

What fellowship does light have with darkness?
2 Corinthians 6:14

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And, as I've stated so many times in this thread, I'd now like you to please quote ANYBODY'S post in this entire thread who ever once claimed that the 10 Commandments must be obeyed for justification or salvation.

I look forward to that post from you.

You're obviously too emotionally absorbed in this argument. If you'd calm down you'd see that I plainly said that all of us on both sides of the argument know that no law keeping whatsoever, even 'love your neighbor as yourself' causes one to BECOME righteous in God's sight. This is our common ground. The contention lies in regard to James's justification - what works, specifically, do justify a person, showing them to be righteous in Christ? Is sabbath keeping among them? I say, no. You say, yes. Good! Let's not beat each other up about it and in the process of arguing over obedience to the sabbath violate our required obedience to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. For as you might know, that is exactly what the prophet bawled the Israelites out about. They were obedient in their fasting and their sabbath and sacrificial worship but completely missed it in regard to that which actually mattered - how they were to treat one another.

 

[Brakelite]

the Ten Commandments are called the ministry of death.

They can only bring death upon the transgressor.
You admit that by keeping the spirit of the law you are by default keeping the letter. Then you claim to be keeping the spirit of the 4th Commandment by "resting in Christ" but the letter is no longer applicable? I put it to you that you cannot be fully resting in Christ if the letter of the 4th commandment is left undone. It's like claiming to be a generous person "in Spirit" but not tithing. Like being a pure faithful person in not marrying another while divorced, but lying with your neighbor once in a while. It's like saying your never lie or near false witness, but not declaring certain goods at customs. You rightly obey the 9, in both Spirit and letter, but reason away the 4th. Like here...

But you do accuse us of not obeying the LETTER of the law, against Paul's warning, even though the substance is Christ, and we establish the whole law through Him.

It isn't an "even though" situation. You only apply that"even though" to the 4th. What not apply it to the 6th? Why not say that Paul warms not to obey the letter of the 6th, because the "substance is Christ"? You are inconsistent in your applications. Yes, Paul warned against obeying the letter as a means of justification, and who doesn't agree with that? But he didn't remove the letter, altogether, nor did he say any time condone disobedience to the letter for those walking in the spirit, in fact, quite the opposite.
KJV Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
KJV Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

.

.:.

.

 

[GEN2REV]

And that is where the contention lies.
There are two aspects of 'justification'. The aspect Paul addresses, and the aspect James addresses. No one disagrees on the aspect of justification that Paul addresses - becoming righteous in God's sight. The contention lies on whether or not literal sabbath keeping is among the deeds that James says justify a person. We know from Galatians that it is not. But it's not a hill worth dying for...unless a person keeps a literal sabbath to the exclusion of and in ignorance of the works that really do justify a person. That is the danger of the sabbath keeping argument. And as far as that danger goes, I'm of the opinion you just alert someone to that danger and then you just let them do with it what they will.

It's so commonplace that these discussions endlessly go in circles. And do you know why they do that? It's because the dishonest parties refuse to acknowledge when they've been corrected accurately with scripture.

Here's how this next part would go if I cared to go through the multiple exchanges of it:

GEN: Ferris, why is it that we are still expected by God, on penalty of damnation, not to murder?
Ferris: Because we are to obey the 2 Commandments of Jesus.
GEN: Yes and what are those Commandments, Ferris?
Ferris: To love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
GEN: Yes, Ferris, that's correct. And can you tell me how it is that God has told us to love Him?
Ferris: Well, I can, but I won't.
GEN: That's ok, Ferris. I'll tell you. He has told us through His first 4 Commandments how He expects mankind to love Him. He never decided that He didn't want us to stop loving Him in those ways, just as He never decided He wanted us to stop loving mankind in the ways that the 5th thru 10th Commandments make clear.

And there you have it. Once again. The reason it makes zero sense that God still expects ALL 10 Commandments to be obeyed EXCEPT the 4th.

He only ever blessed and sanctified ONE day of the week. Genesis 2:2-3
He only ever called ONE day of the week HIS Holy Day - the Holy of the Lord. Isaiah 58:13

God doesn't change and everything He has EVER blessed, sanctified or made Holy is still Holy to this very day.

ETA: God tells people to take their shoes off when they are standing upon Holy Ground. The Seventh Day is a Holy Day. Do you show reverence or respect for the day that God has made Holy? Or do you blaspheme it endlessly, demanding that nobody make a big deal out of the ONE day that God has declared a Holy day to Him? Do you love the things God loves and hate the things God hates?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

They can only bring death upon the transgressor.
You admit that by keeping the spirit of the law you are by default keeping the letter. Then you claim to be keeping the spirit of the 4th Commandment by "resting in Christ" but the letter is no longer applicable? I put it to you that you cannot be fully resting in Christ if the letter of the 4th commandment is left undone. It's like claiming to be a generous person "in Spirit" but not tithing. Like being a pure faithful person in not marrying another while divorced, but lying with your neighbor once in a while. It's like saying your never lie or near false witness, but not declaring certain goods at customs. You rightly obey the 9, in both Spirit and letter, but reason away the 4th. Like here...

cc: @BarnyFife
The "letter" is something you can only do through knowledge of the rule, just like circumcision on the 8th day. It isn't a natural reaction from your conscience of right and wrong. It is also something YOU do as a work. Not something God does as a free gift. You actually have to know what day it is, so you must have a calendar and physically watch the stars come out. Whereas Jesus inside of us produces a natural rest of our spirit, not our physical body. That is why keeping the letter of a certain day our of seven to not sin is falling from God's grace/power. That is why in Hebrews 4, resting in Christ is 24/7/365. It is always a part of us. It is "Today." And tomorrow it will be "Today." And as long as your live it will be "Today."

It isn't an "even though" situation. You only apply that"even though" to the 4th. What not apply it to the 6th? Why not say that Paul warms not to obey the letter of the 6th, because the "substance is Christ"? You are inconsistent in your applications. Yes, Paul warned against obeying the letter as a means of justification, and who doesn't agree with that? But he didn't remove the letter, altogether, nor did he say any time condone disobedience to the letter for those walking in the spirit, in fact, quite the opposite.
KJV Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
KJV Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

The Sabbath has to do with remembering the Creator. Abiding in Jesus in the New Covenant is having the substance, the Creator, inside of us allowing us to be in God's rest. The 6th commandment has nothing to do with Jesus, specifically, as the Creator. But He does prevent us from naturally breaking the 6th commandment.

 

[Brakelite]

cc: @BarnyFife
The "letter" is something you can only do through knowledge of the rule, just like circumcision on the 8th day. It isn't a natural reaction from your conscience of right and wrong. It is also something YOU do as a work. Not something God does as a free gift. You actually have to know what day it is, so you must have a calendar and physically watch the stars come out. Whereas Jesus inside of us produces a natural rest of our spirit, not our physical body. That is why keeping the letter of a certain day our of seven to not sin is falling from God's grace/power. That is why in Hebrews 4, resting in Christ is 24/7/365. It is always a part of us. It is "Today." And tomorrow it will be "Today." And as long as your live it will be "Today."



The Sabbath has to do with remembering the Creator. Abiding in Jesus in the New Covenant is having the substance, the Creator, inside of us allowing us to be in God's rest. The 6th commandment has nothing to do with Jesus, specifically, as the Creator. But He does prevent us from naturally breaking the 6th commandment.

You confirm what I've been saying. It's only Sabbath deniers that use the "rest in Christ" motif to excuse themselves from the 4th commandment. You are correct. Keeping the 4th commandment doesn't come by

a natural reaction from your conscience of right and wrong

Knowledge and understanding of the Sabbath comes only by revelation. An acceptance and faith in God's word. Of God says it, He means it. And He says, remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. Why? Because it is holy, He wants your company for a full day without distraction, and He wants you to be at the peak always of your physical, mental, and spiritual powers in order to glorify Him at all times. And that is why we Sabbath. The rest itself isn't the end goal. It's honoring God's authority to do according to His good pleasure.

I'd like you to do an exercise for me. Take the ten commandments as is, then blot out the 4th, leaving you with 9 commandments. Now, from just those 9 commandments, show me who the god/God is that is doing the commanding. Whose law is it? Prove to me that it isn't Satan, the god of this world, who would be quite content for you to be obeying those 9 commands. So long as you don't acknowledge the one missing identifying his enemy as the true Lawgiver.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You confirm what I've been saying. It's only Sabbath deniers that use the "rest in Christ" motif to excuse themselves from the 4th commandment. You are correct. Keeping the 4th commandment doesn't come by

Knowledge and understanding of the Sabbath comes only by revelation. An acceptance and faith in God's word. Of God says it, He means it. And He says, remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. Why? Because it is holy, He wants your company for a full day without distraction, and He wants you to be at the peak always of your physical, mental, and spiritual powers in order to glorify Him at all times. And that is why we Sabbath. The rest itself isn't the end goal. It's honoring God's authority to do according to His good pleasure.

I'd like you to do an exercise for me. Take the ten commandments as is, then blot out the 4th, leaving you with 9 commandments. Now, from just those 9 commandments, show me who the god/God is that is doing the commanding. Whose law is it? Prove to me that it isn't Satan, the god of this world, who would be quite content for you to be obeying those 9 commands. So long as you don't acknowledge the one missing identifying his enemy as the true Lawgiver.

Don't you know what a "work" is?

Ephesians 2:
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This is why observing a "work" and not grace is falling from grace.

Good works is for others, not to take a nap for yourself.

 

[Brakelite]

Don't you know what a "work" is?

Ephesians 2:
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This is why observing a "work" and not grace is falling from grace.

Good works is for others, not to take a nap for yourself.

I didn't think you, of all people in this discussion, would have to resort to straw men to counter an argument. I'm disappointed.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's so commonplace that these discussions endlessly go in circles. And do you know why they do that? It's because the dishonest parties refuse to acknowledge when they've been corrected accurately with scripture.

Not me, friend.

Here's how this next part would go if I cared to go through the multiple exchanges of it:

GEN: Ferris, why is it that we are still expected by God, on penalty of damnation, not to murder?
Ferris: Because we are to obey the 2 Commandments of Jesus.
GEN: Yes and what are those Commandments, Ferris?
Ferris: To love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
GEN: Yes, Ferris, that's correct. And can you tell me how it is that God has told us to love Him?
Ferris: Well, I can, but I won't.
GEN: That's ok, Ferris. I'll tell you. He has told us through His first 4 Commandments how He expects mankind to love Him. He never decided that He didn't want us to stop loving Him in those ways, just as He never decided He wanted us to stop loving mankind in the ways that the 5th thru 10th Commandments make clear.

Lol, I guess you don't know me very well.