The 144,000 before God at the end.

[grafted branch]

What Scripture applies fullness of the Gentiles to Ephraim?

Yes, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 represent old covenant believers, i.e. the OT "Church" of those faithful and obedient to God and His OT covenant, within the named tribes. That included both faithful obedient Jews and faithful obedient Gentiles (Genesis 17:12 et al).

The 144,000 of Revelation 14 represent the NT Church of those faithful and obedient to God and His Son and their New Covenant, within the world.
There are no tribal references in Revelation 14 because, as you've affirmed, the NT Church "includes all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues".

Genesis (YLT) 48:17 And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh; 18 and Joseph saith unto his father, ‘Not so, my father, for this [is] the first-born; set thy right hand on his head.’ 19 And his father refuseth, and saith, ‘I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;’

YLT shows Ephraim is told he will be a fullness of nations (Gentiles) by Jacob. Ephraim was part of the northern kingdom, aka the ten lost tribes of Israel. In Ezekiel 37:16-17 the two sticks are joined together, one stick is “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions” and the other stick is “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions”.

The two sticks are joined when the Gentiles are grafted in. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles it should include Ephraim.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The circular reasoning of our conversation …

TS) The 144,000 are the multitude.

GB) But why are the 144,000 the multitude?

TS) Because spirituality 12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.

GB) But the multitude can’t be counted.

TS) God gave us the number 144,000, that’s how we know it’s the multitude.

GB) But God didn’t say the 144,000 were the multitude.

TS) I know, we have to spiritually count the number 144,000 which shows they are the multitude.

God assigned the spiritual number to the Great Multitude to represent that they are the fullness of the children of Israel regardless exact head count of all redeemed Saints.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The two sticks are joined when the Gentiles are grafted in. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles it should include Ephraim.

First, God applies a spiritual interpretation to these words that He inspired His prophet Hosea to write, indicating to us that the prophecy is ultimately fulfilled by the Gentiles coming into Christ along with the remnant of Jews. In this prophecy in Hosea (and others like it in the OT), Judah (the southern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from the nation of Israel, and Israel (the northern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from all of the Gentile nations. You have to understand that God does everything for a reason! There is nothing arbitrary or insignificant about His inspired word or His providential control of history.

When He split the kingdom in two, He began to use this event to speak symbolically about the two groups of people that He has in this world, those from the Jewish nation, and those from the Gentile nations. This is what the kingdoms of Judah and Israel symbolized - the Jews and the Gentiles! The language that we see in the OT about re-gathering the dispersed of the northern kingdom of Israel ultimately has its fulfillment in the NT church age with the remnant of the Gentile nations being brought into the body of Christ along with the remnant of the Jewish nation to form the Church. God's people are now one, with one shepherd and King over them, the Lord Jesus Christ (referred to as "David their king" in Hosea 3:5). Ezekiel speaks of the exact same idea when he prophecies of the joining of the two sticks.

Ezekiel 37
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Ezekiel 37
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

And once more, Jesus Christ Himself assusres us of the spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy:

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Here is the fulfillment of the prophecy - one fold (Jew and Gentile together) with one shepherd over them, "David their king" is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself! The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace (of Salvation), cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God, all those chosen from the foundation of the world (BOTH Jew and Gentile alike). I hope you can see that all of the prophecies that we have looked at so far were fulfilled in Jesus Christ at the cross, and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that followed.

This is why we read in Zechariah 14:8 refers to the former sea and the hinder sea. It is a reference to the Jews (former sea) and Gentiles (hinder sea) who were both cleansed and brought to life by the Holy Spirit, forming one, unified Israel of God - the body of Christ. This is the restoration of Israel! This has absolutely nothing to do with that nation in the Middle East which has been in continuous rebellion against God for the last 2000 years. It has everything to do with the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham that all nations of the earth would be blessed through his seed (Jesus Christ) - the promise of the Holy Spirit!

Let them with spiritual ears let him hear!

 

[grafted branch]

First, God applies a spiritual interpretation to these words that He inspired His prophet Hosea to write, indicating to us that the prophecy is ultimately fulfilled by the Gentiles coming into Christ along with the remnant of Jews. In this prophecy in Hosea (and others like it in the OT), Judah (the southern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from the nation of Israel, and Israel (the northern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from all of the Gentile nations. You have to understand that God does everything for a reason! There is nothing arbitrary or insignificant about His inspired word or His providential control of history.

When He split the kingdom in two, He began to use this event to speak symbolically about the two groups of people that He has in this world, those from the Jewish nation, and those from the Gentile nations. This is what the kingdoms of Judah and Israel symbolized - the Jews and the Gentiles! The language that we see in the OT about re-gathering the dispersed of the northern kingdom of Israel ultimately has its fulfillment in the NT church age with the remnant of the Gentile nations being brought into the body of Christ along with the remnant of the Jewish nation to form the Church. God's people are now one, with one shepherd and King over them, the Lord Jesus Christ (referred to as "David their king" in Hosea 3:5). Ezekiel speaks of the exact same idea when he prophecies of the joining of the two sticks.

Ezekiel 37
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Ezekiel 37
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

And once more, Jesus Christ Himself assusres us of the spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy:

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Here is the fulfillment of the prophecy - one fold (Jew and Gentile together) with one shepherd over them, "David their king" is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself! The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace (of Salvation), cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God, all those chosen from the foundation of the world (BOTH Jew and Gentile alike). I hope you can see that all of the prophecies that we have looked at so far were fulfilled in Jesus Christ at the cross, and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that followed.

This is why we read in Zechariah 14:8 refers to the former sea and the hinder sea. It is a reference to the Jews (former sea) and Gentiles (hinder sea) who were both cleansed and brought to life by the Holy Spirit, forming one, unified Israel of God - the body of Christ. This is the restoration of Israel! This has absolutely nothing to do with that nation in the Middle East which has been in continuous rebellion against God for the last 2000 years. It has everything to do with the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham that all nations of the earth would be blessed through his seed (Jesus Christ) - the promise of the Holy Spirit!

Let them with spiritual ears let him hear!

Ok, I agree with you on this. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles then why is the tribe of Ephraim left out on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Where is the stick of Ephraim, it isn’t joined into the 144,000.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ok, I agree with you on this. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles then why is the tribe of Ephraim left out on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Where is the stick of Ephraim, it isn’t joined into the 144,000.

Because Ephraim is a picture of professed believers of the congregation. They are the unbelievers who are IN GOD'S COVENANT HOUSE.

Jeremiah 7:14-15

• "Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
• And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim."

These are the covenant Children who are cast out, symbolically blotted out of the registry of God's chosen people. Not any unbeliever in the world blotted out, rather the people of God's household who were never saved in the first place! They are the very people that GOd warned that the locusts will come after in Revelation 9 becasue they have not yet seal (saved) of God after He has finished building his church as I have explained several times on other thread.

See, the Book of Life is symbolic of the registry of God's Covenant Household. It symbolizes the promise of Life to God's people. But ALL "His People" were NOT saved. Neither in the Old Covenant congregation, nor the New.

2nd Timothy 2:19-20

• "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
• But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour."

God's not talking about everyone in the world, God is talking about all those in His household, His covenant people. Some of them are unbelievers or unsaved professed believers as they are seen by God as vessels of wood and of earth unto dishonor. That is why the building of God's habitation is made of gold, silver, precious stones (saved people), and wood, hay, and stubbles (unsaved professed Christians).

Hope this helps.

 

[grafted branch]

Because Ephraim is a picture of professed believers of the congregation. They are the unbelievers who are IN GOD'S COVENANT HOUSE.

Jeremiah 7:14-15

• "Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
• And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim."

These are the covenant Children who are cast out, symbolically blotted out of the registry of God's chosen people. Not any unbeliever in the world blotted out, rather the people of God's household who were never saved in the first place! They are the very people that GOd warned that the locusts will come after in Revelation 9 becasue they have not yet seal (saved) of God after He has finished building his church as I have explained several times on other thread.

See, the Book of Life is symbolic of the registry of God's Covenant Household. It symbolizes the promise of Life to God's people. But ALL "His People" were NOT saved. Neither in the Old Covenant congregation, nor the New.

2nd Timothy 2:19-20

• "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
• But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour."

God's not talking about everyone in the world, God is talking about all those in His household, His covenant people. Some of them are unbelievers or unsaved professed believers as they are seen by God as vessels of wood and of earth unto dishonor. That is why the building of God's habitation is made of gold, silver, precious stones (saved people), and wood, hay, and stubbles (unsaved professed Christians).

Hope this helps.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



This verse is talking about after the two sticks are joined and what happens. Wouldn’t Jeremiah 7:14-15 be referring to the condition of Ephraim prior to the two sticks being joined?

If the Jeremiah 7:14-15 “cast you out of my site” is what happens after they are joined then it implies salvation can be lost which is something I definitely don’t think is possible.

 

[brightfame52]

The blameless 144000 is none other than these here Col.1:20-22,27

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

And it includes Gentiles Vs 27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[The Light]

Wow. The confusion. The 144,000 can be easily numbered. It's 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. Simple.

 

[The Light]

Ok, I agree with you on this. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles then why is the tribe of Ephraim left out on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Where is the stick of Ephraim, it isn’t joined into the 144,000.

I don't think God lost any tribes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Relax. You need take a deep breath.

Gentiles can be grafted into spiritual tribes of Israel (which is a covensnt tree Israel) because they are spiritual Jews in Christ. The 144,000 is much larger than your Jewish fable.

Show me "spiritual tribes" that you bet the farm on.
And yes do breath when you do come up with such a bizarre thing in Gods word.
And tell us what "spiritual tribe" you belong to.
Should be easy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

On these two points we agree, no man can number the multitude and nowhere is the number 144,000 explicitly defined as the multitude.
You then proceed to use counting to show how we can know that the 144,000 spiritually represents the multitude.

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.

Example …

It’s time to go to bed.
Why?
Because it’s your bedtime.



The circular reasoning of our conversation …

TS) The 144,000 are the multitude.

GB) But why are the 144,000 the multitude?

TS) Because spirituality 12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.

GB) But the multitude can’t be counted.

TS) God gave us the number 144,000, that’s how we know it’s the multitude.

GB) But God didn’t say the 144,000 were the multitude.

TS) I know, we have to spiritually count the number 144,000 which shows they are the multitude.

Rinse and repeat.

Yes
It is foolish to begin. With a premise from the mind.
That premise, is of course, replacement theology.
The premise is that there are no more Jews, or that whatever is left if them are just disposable humanoids in Gods eyes.
Now you know why their filly is so bizarre.
They are LITERALLY whipping a dead horse.
Replacement theology is destroyed in Romans 11.
Thoroughly debunked .
So can there be a covenant Jew in Gods future plans???
According to them and their mental error of a changed bible, they use words "racist" to recklessly ascribe to God as a racist if He dare go after His "wife gone awhoring"
It is pitiful how they exert such energy on a dead theology.
"Racist"
It is uncanny how another group in America is also invoking a fake race card ,"racist", to strong arm an agenda of ignorance and folly .
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

To all God’s redeemed people of the 144,000 saying. AMEN!!

The watchtower religion at one time said they were the 144k.
They repented eventually.
There is cling to error that is painful to admit and drop.
Hurts the Ole pride, but is refreshing to be on the same page as Gods word.
In no way are you of the 144k and NONE of us ever will be.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What Scripture applies fullness of the Gentiles to Ephraim?

Yes, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 represent old covenant believers, i.e. the OT "Church" of those faithful and obedient to God and His OT covenant, within the named tribes. That included both faithful obedient Jews and faithful obedient Gentiles (Genesis 17:12 et al).

The 144,000 of Revelation 14 represent the NT Church of those faithful and obedient to God and His Son and their New Covenant, within the world.
There are no tribal references in Revelation 14 because, as you've affirmed, the NT Church "includes all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues".

There is zero to support the idea that there are 2 separate groups of 144k.
Show me a ministry that agrees with that bizarre assertion.
Find somebody that agrees with you.
Are you the only one with that assertion????
That is TOTALLY made up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

God assigned the spiritual number to the Great Multitude to represent that they are the fullness of the children of Israel regardless exact head count of all redeemed Saints.

The 144k EXACT NUMBER IS;

Men
Virgins
Not defiled by women
Firstfruits
Tribes
144k number is precise

....authenticated in that they are numbered two separate ways.
All your sentences are batting the air trying to come up with a desperate solution..

It is declared EMPHATICALLY that the 144k can only be what it says they are.
Your cunningness is making a fool of yourself

 

[grafted branch]

I don't think God lost any tribes.

I don’t think God has lost anything either.

The Revelation 7 list of tribes that comprise the 144,000 does not include Ephraim. At some point the two Ezekiel 37 sticks of Judah and Ephraim are joined.

The question is why isn’t Ephraim on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Is it because the two stick are not joined together yet when the 144,000 are sealed? Or do you see another reason?

 

[amadeus]

Ok, I agree with you on this. If the 144,000 includes Gentiles then why is the tribe of Ephraim left out on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Where is the stick of Ephraim, it isn’t joined into the 144,000.

I don't think God lost any tribes.

Joseph had two sons, Ephraim and Manasses who Jacob effectively adopted as his sons, rather than as two grandsons here:

Ge 48:5

And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

In Revelation 7 it appears that the one part of Joseph's double portion, Ephraim is called by the name of Joseph. The other part of the double portion is called Manasses. Joseph received the double portion, which by order of birth should have belonged to Reuben, but...

Ge 49:3	Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Ge 49:4	Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

The missing tribe is Dan.

 

[Davy]

Joseph had two sons, Ephraim and Manasses who effectively adopted as his sons, rather than as two grandsons here:

Ge 48:5

And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

In Revelation 7 it appears that the one part of Joseph's double portion, Ephraim is called by the name of Joseph. The other part of the double portion is called Manasses. Joseph received the double portion, which by order of birth should have belonged to Reuben, but...

Ge 49:3	Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Ge 49:4	Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

The missing tribe is Dan.

This explains why Reuben lost the Birthright...

1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV

And in Genesis 48:16, Jacob, who's new given name was Israel, said for his name to be named upon the two lads (Ephraim and Manasseh). Jacob also included Abraham and Isaac in that, which is pointing all the way back to The Gospel Promise God first gave through Abraham per Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

 

[Davy]

The question is why isn’t Ephraim on the Revelation 7 list of tribes? Is it because the two stick are not joined together yet when the 144,000 are sealed? Or do you see another reason?

It's because like the tribe of Dan, the tribe of Ephraim also fell away to idol Baal worship (see Book of Hosea).

 

[grafted branch]

Joseph had two sons, Ephraim and Manasses who effectively adopted as his sons, rather than as two grandsons here:

Ge 48:5

And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

In Revelation 7 it appears that the one part of Joseph's double portion, Ephraim is called by the name of Joseph. The other part of the double portion is called Manasses. Joseph received the double portion, which by order of birth should have belonged to Reuben, but...

Ge 49:3	Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Ge 49:4	Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

The missing tribe is Dan.

Ok,thanks, I can see that. Do you have any additional thoughts on why Joseph was named instead of Ephraim? And what about Dan, any thoughts on why Dan was the tribe that was excluded?

 

[grafted branch]

It's because like the tribe of Dan, the tribe of Ephraim also fell away to idol Baal worship (see Book of Hosea).

Ok, so I’m trying to get a better understanding here. The two Ezekiel 37 sticks are Judah and Ephraim and they are joined at some point in time. Are you saying that Ephraim in name only isn’t joined because of Baal worship? Is the name of Ephraim forever lost while the people of that tribe are indeed joined with the stick of Judah?