the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

[Heart2Soul]

Hi there Randy Kluth,
So, Revelation, the Apocalypse, the 7 Ekklesias, the Lamb, the Scroll, the 4 Beasts, the 24 Elders, the 7 Seals...

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book (biblios = scroll back then) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Some points to note:

• Only the Redeemer is worthy to open the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator.
• When the Redeemer takes the scroll from the right hand of the Creator His worthiness to take and open it is acknowledged in the song of the 4 beasts and 24 elders, who represent the priesthood of all who serve God and are the redeemed out of every kindred and people and tribe and nation.
• In contrast to Romans 8:22 which describes all Creation as groaning and labouring with birth pangs, when the Redeemer has taken the scroll from the Creator, Revelation 5:13 depicts all Creation, good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, in heaven or not, as acknowledging and applauding His superlative quality and worthiness.

What is so important about the scroll that it is sealed with 7 seals which only the Redeemer is worthy to open?

• Information regarding the Divine Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes to be continued until Complete Perfection is Fulfilled.

Since these Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes have been disclosed it follows that since their disclosure they have been at work.

That's all for now...time to rest.

Nice.....this ministers to me.

 

[101G]

I agree--Wrath is sometimes disciplinary. But I would also suggest that God can demonstrate wrath even against His own people, which is the very definition of Discipline. But when the Scriptures say God has not intended for us to suffer wrath, I think it's talking about "Eternal Wrath." Christians, being saved, may experience disciplinary wrath, but they will never suffer "Eternal Wrath."

GINOLJC, to all. yes, a judgment is a disciplinary action, this is why we have the book of Judges, sin, correction, deliverance.

In order to usher in the Kingdom of Christ in this fallen world, the 4 Horsemen represent, I believe, God's way of dealing with the earthly powers that are hindering this development. In the last days, Antichrist and his Empire will be a major hindrance to God's Kingdom. In fact, it is for this reason that the Apostle John called the "Little Horn" of Dan 7 the "Antichrist." He is presented in Daniel as being a hindrance to the coming of the Kingdom of God.

yes, not only, Antichrist, (which are many of them), and Governments to be. but the Holy Spirit by his apostle said it best, 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Note that God not only uses these 4 Horsemen to express a kind of divine military attack on earthly kingdoms, but He shows that the angels so represented also are characterized as animals. They are a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle.

Yes, you'll find all of them in Ezekiel 14.

The ox does appears to be a source of judgment, but is not normally perceived as an instrument of judgment. Nevertheless, it is one of the 4 cherubim.

Not saying that you're right or wrong here, but consider this, "THE SWORD": the second horseman, revealed by the second beast, the “face of Calf/Oxen, the red horse rider.

The second beast is the Calf/Oxen, which reveals the work of the red horseman rider in chapter 6, here Calf/Oxen represent, "strength" and "POWER". Satan is given power to test the saint of God, scripture, Job 1:9-12 "Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?. Verse 10 "Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. Verse 11 "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Verse 12 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD”.
The apostle Paul says it best, Romans 12:21 "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good”. the Red rider repent blood in war, but our warfare is not carnal, but spiritual, see 2 Corinthians 10:4. the second beast reveals a time of the testing of the saints, and the world. even if it causes some their deaths.

Christian kingdoms have indeed exercised these powers when they were in line with Christian truth and in keeping with genuine Christian practice. God blessed Christian civilization with superior reason, wealth, and military strength, as well as divine support. But I'm open to how to interpret these things.

Yes, the church had been given POWER, the Holy Spirit to help us to OVERCOME evil in the world. but many has lost their way, or gone the way of
Balaam, or of Cain. as in chapter 2 & 3 of Revelation, the churches is Judge, and he still have .... he said it best, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee". so he correct his own and then the world.

PICJAG

 

[marks]

I think I'm uniquely called to the field of eschatology, but there are very few who agree with me. If your ministry is somewhere else, as most often it is, then eschatology will only be peripheral for you regardless. All an evangelist needs to know, for example, is that Christ's Kingdom is coming, and that folks need to start getting ready for it now! :)

I've held so many views, partly due to the diverse views I've heard from my church and from books. Over time I was given my own way of interpreting Scriptures in this area. It doesn't matter how many times I explain it, it's sort of ignored, probably because it's my system, and not always somebody else's.

Enough of the small talk. Please don't be offended if I'm direct about my beliefs. I take a little from different schools, preterism and dispensationalism, and find the most important validation from the church fathers. I'm really neither preterist nor dispensationalist. So let me explain just what it is.

I believe, as the Church Fathers did, that Daniel's 70th Week and the Olivet Discourse were focused primarily on the earthly coming of Jesus, his death, and on the destruction of Jerusalem that followed. It wasn't at all about the Antichrist.

The birth pains set the stage for the 70 AD event, which the disciples were to watch out for. And then the Jewish People would be scattered and exiled across the earth all the way through to the end of the age. What began as birth pains would become an age of great tribulation both for the Jewish People and for the Christian Church. The same signs that anticipated the fall of Jerusalem occur throughout the NT age, as more nations, like Israel, become God's People, and then fall away.

The book of Revelation largely focuses on the last 3.5 years of the age, when Antichrist rises to consolidate the old Roman Empire under his control, by the inspiration of Satan. He has a religious figure to support him, with branches east and west--perhaps a takeover by Satan of the Roman Catholic Church? This, of course, wouldn't be a church anymore. Rome itself would have to be destroyed.

That's it in a nutshell. And that's why I'm wondering whether the 4 horsemen started 2000 years ago, or are intended to start in our day? I'll take it that you interpret things in a modern way, which is probably the right thing to do, because that's where we live now!

Hi Randy,

I've been studying prophecy avidly for quite a number of years! I've been on a prophecy focused forum for about 15 years, where we've covered quite a bit of ground.

I'm fairly versed on the different views, their strengths and weaknesses. But I wouldn't call myself an expert.

My thing is to find my views specifically in Scripture, that is, if one of the writings which are still around from the early church, if they say the AC was Domitian, let's just pull from a hat, I'll still need to see it in the Bible how we can actually know. I'm a stickler for the text. And there are some valid interpretations that differ on some passages, so we always need to go to the unambiguous in order to understand the others.

As far as my ministry, I believe it is to equip the saints with sound doctrine. No doctrine in Scripture exists in a vacuum, and, in my understanding, a wrong view eschatologically, or in any other area, can negatively impact one's understanding of God, and what our relationship with God is like.

Our ecclesiology, for instance, will have a massive impact on how we interpret the Revelation, and Daniel, and the others. If we understand that we are in a covenant relationship with God that began with Adam, which continues today, may be unable to understand how someone can have a pre-trib rapture view, interpretting key passages in an entirely different way because of their other views.

Where the horseman released at the time Jesus entered heaven?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

First, no one is found in heaven or earth or under the earth, where else is there? What about Jesus?? Then He is there! He is Worthy! He hath prevailed.

Does this mean that this scene occurred directly after Jesus, death? Peter says He descended into the heart of the earth. Directly after His ascension?

At what point did Jesus prevail? And was found worthy? And opened the seals?

It's a great question! I find eschatology fascinating, but extremely detailed. It seems that the implications of each view become more far reaching the more I examine them.

Much love!

 

[101G]

Does this mean that this scene occurred directly after Jesus, death? Peter says He descended into the heart of the earth. Directly after His ascension?

Hi Mark, are you saying that Jesus descended into the heart of the earth after his ascension? please explain, that's interesting.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Only the Redeemer is worthy to open the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator

Hi Stumpmaster, not for an argument, but for edification, you said, "the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator", right, I agree, but is not the Lord Jesus the CREATOR?

PICJAG.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I've been studying prophecy avidly for quite a number of years! I've been on a prophecy focused forum for about 15 years, where we've covered quite a bit of ground.

I'm fairly versed on the different views, their strengths and weaknesses. But I wouldn't call myself an expert.

My thing is to find my views specifically in Scripture, that is, if one of the writings which are still around from the early church, if they say the AC was Domitian, let's just pull from a hat, I'll still need to see it in the Bible how we can actually know. I'm a stickler for the text. And there are some valid interpretations that differ on some passages, so we always need to go to the unambiguous in order to understand the others.

As far as my ministry, I believe it is to equip the saints with sound doctrine. No doctrine in Scripture exists in a vacuum, and, in my understanding, a wrong view eschatologically, or in any other area, can negatively impact one's understanding of God, and what our relationship with God is like.

Our ecclesiology, for instance, will have a massive impact on how we interpret the Revelation, and Daniel, and the others. If we understand that we are in a covenant relationship with God that began with Adam, which continues today, may be unable to understand how someone can have a pre-trib rapture view, interpretting key passages in an entirely different way because of their other views.

Ah, I thought you were different than an evangelist. We all have an evangelistic bent, but you do seem more of a thinker and as such, perhaps a teacher or even an apologist of some kind? Regardless, I agree with you. There is much material, in terms of doctrine, that needs to be defended and properly explained, including eschatology. And our views in one area, or overarching philosophy, can skew our beliefs in other particular areas.

Where the horseman released at the time Jesus entered heaven?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

First, no one is found in heaven or earth or under the earth, where else is there? What about Jesus?? Then He is there! He is Worthy! He hath prevailed.

Does this mean that this scene occurred directly after Jesus, death? Peter says He descended into the heart of the earth. Directly after His ascension?

At what point did Jesus prevail? And was found worthy? And opened the seals?

It's a great question! I find eschatology fascinating, but extremely detailed. It seems that the implications of each view become more far reaching the more I examine them.

Much love!

Good point. However, I would caution you, as I do others on the tendency to allign things chronologically along with the sequence of the narrative. The visions are symbols, and the chronology of the narrative is one thing, and the chronology of each vision and their relationship to one another is another thing.

I used the following example. I tell you of my 3 visions. I 1st saw a vision of the future. I then saw a vision of what is happening presently. And finally, I go into the desert and see a great image representing the past.

Nobody should ever interpret this to mean that my last vision represents something that happens *after* my 1st vision! The 1st vision is the future, and necessary follows my last vision of the past!

Just because I'm caught up in the desert and see a symbol of a great image does not mean that this is something that happens after my 1st vision of the future. Nor does it mean that I'm going to literally be caught away to the desert in the future. This is just symbolic of something having to do with my visions--something peculiar to the past--and only has to do with how I'm viewing these visions--not necessarily something that happened in the past.

You really have to meditate on these things to know what I'm talking about, because in studying this I noticed many people have led me astray, thinking that the way John saw his revelation indicated certain prophecies yet to be fulfilled, or a time sequence of some sort, when in reality they were just expressions of how John saw these visions, and had nothing to do with a timing sequence.

May the Lord be merciful upon us all! ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Mark, are you saying that Jesus descended into the heart of the earth after his ascension? please explain, that's interesting.

PICJAG.

I may have a different take on it than some. Let me just suggest that going into the "heart of the earth" has a much simpler application. As Jonah was thrown into the heart of the sea, enveloped by water, and consigned to death, so Jesus was enveloped by death, and entered into a state of death. The "heart of the earth" is, in other words, to be buried and dead. It is to "return to the earth," from whence we came.

Many think this has to do with entering into Hell. There is another passage in Peter that people use to state this. But in this particular passage, I think the idea is having to do with entering into the state of complete non-existence, the cessation of physical life. It has nothing to do with visiting somewhere.

On the other hand, since humans have eternal existence, entering into the complete cessation of physical life means our consciousness has to be somewhere else, in particular among those who are also dead and yet spiritually alive. That may be what Peter refers to here:

1 Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

 

[101G]

I may have a different take on it than some. Let me just suggest that going into the "heart of the earth" has a much simpler application. As Jonah was thrown into the heart of the sea, enveloped by water, and consigned to death, so Jesus was enveloped by death, and entered into a state of death. The "heart of the earth" is, in other words, to be buried and dead. It is to "return to the earth," from whence we came.

Many think this has to do with entering into Hell. There is another passage in Peter that people use to state this. But in this particular passage, I think the idea is having to do with entering into the state of complete non-existence, the cessation of physical life. It has nothing to do with visiting somewhere.

On the other hand, since humans have eternal existence, entering into the complete cessation of physical life means our consciousness has to be somewhere else, in particular among those who are also dead and yet spiritually alive. That may be what Peter refers to here:

1 Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.

thanks for that, but I asked, "did our Lord descended into the heart of the earth after, after, after, his ascension as you said?

PICJAG.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@101G There is too much info in this link to copy and paste....would you take a moment when you can and look at it? It's subject matter is about the 4 Chariots in Zechariah's vision and this links it to the 4 Horseman in Revelation. Asking for feedback. thanks
Zechariah 06 - Vision of the Four Chariots - Lesson 07

 

[marks]

Good point. However, I would caution you, as I do others on the tendency to allign things chronologically along with the sequence of the narrative. The visions are symbols, and the chronology of the narrative is one thing, and the chronology of each vision and their relationship to one another is another thing.

Very true. I find that there is chronological language used throughout the vision that lets us know much information.

For instance, the seals are opened, and then 7 trumpets are given to 7 angels, who begin to sound them. This tells me that the sounding of the trumpets, and those things which follow the sounding of each occur after the 7 seals are opened. This rules out the view that many hold to that the seals, trumpets, and bowls all describe the same set of 7 things happening, only each tells it from a different point of view. I know that cannot be true, because by the chronological language of the vision, it does supply a specific narrative, which I cannot ignore.

There are of course portions that leave this ordered narrative, and supply their own internal chronology, or in certain cases, not, leaving us to surmise where it fits in.

One thing I'll say too, is that I hold that symbols in Revelation are symbols if the text says they are. And if the text says they are, then the Bible will also give us the meaning of that symbol. For instance, "a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman, clothed with the stars, the sun at her head, the moon at her feet", I think it goes. We can look back to Genesis, and see how that fits what is written, and this is known, and supported in the text.

John wrote that the woman was given the wings of an eagle to flee from the dragon. God brought Israel out of Egypt on "the wings of an eagle". I see this as God using the two witnesses to strike the earth with plagues allowing the Israelites to flee to the wilderness.

You really have to meditate on these things to know what I'm talking about, because in studying this I noticed many people have led me astray, thinking that the way John saw his revelation indicated certain prophecies yet to be fulfilled, or a time sequence of some sort, when in reality they were just expressions of how John saw these visions, and had nothing to do with a timing sequence.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What we tend to call a vision the Bible calls a revelation, this is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is "a" revelation, given to Jesus by God, for the purpose of showing us what will happen.

"Vision" is used 3 times in the Revelation, twice for what he saw,

4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

This would be more descriptive of the seeing of the appearance.

9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

This would be speaking of the vision as we think of it, the entirety of the supernatural "seeing", which is the basic meaning of the word. The vision is here singular. There is a singular revelation, a singular vision, an interrupted narrative, each, both overall narrative, and parathetical parts, I think both can be determined specifically from the text.

Much love!

 

[101G]

@101G There is too much info in this link to copy and paste....would you take a moment when you can and look at it? It's subject matter is about the 4 Chariots in Zechariah's vision and this links it to the 4 Horseman in Revelation. Asking for feedback. thanks
Zechariah 06 - Vision of the Four Chariots - Lesson 07

Hi Heart2Soul, yes these 4 Four Chariots are exacitly the same judgments as found in Ezekiel 14:12-21, and in Revelation chapter 4, and chapter 6.
and I agree with the assessment that these 4 are judgment of God.

the only disagreement I have with the paper is this. "d. The white horse symbolizes victory.". and "i. He will bring a victory that will set up a false peace upon the earth". and the reason why I cannot agree with at assessment is the reason they gave, "ii. The world will think that it is entering the Millennium when actually it will be entering the Great Tribulation period". unless there are two or more "Great Tribulation period", because John on the Island of Patmos stated this, Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." and John was in the church. in the letters to the 7 churches, our Lord said this, Revelation 2:9 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
and the word "suffer" there in Revelation 2:10 is just another word for "Tribulation". which the church goes through.

now, the only victory that I see that the white horse rider having in Revelation chapter 6, is in the deceiving of the people. both in and outside of the church, for the Lord Jesus even himself said this, Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." which is in consistency with the deception of the whole world, by this rider, (a fake imitator of christ). this lines up exactly with the THE NOISOM BEAST of Ezekiel 14, (who is a false prophet), and which lines up with the “face of the Lion”, a deceiver, as with satan the devil. 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

so yes, the four Chariots lines up with the riders in Revelation 6. and the four living creatures/beast in Revelation chapter 4, and the 4 judgment of Ezekiel 14

PICJAG.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hi Heart2Soul, yes these 4 Four Chariots are exacitly the same judgments as found in Ezekiel 14:12-21, and in Revelation chapter 4, and chapter 6.
and I agree with the assessment that these 4 are judgment of God.

the only disagreement I have with the paper is this. "d. The white horse symbolizes victory.". and "i. He will bring a victory that will set up a false peace upon the earth". and the reason why I cannot agree with at assessment is the reason they gave, "ii. The world will think that it is entering the Millennium when actually it will be entering the Great Tribulation period". unless there are two or more "Great Tribulation period", because John on the Island of Patmos stated this, Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." and John was in the church. in the letters to the 7 churches, our Lord said this, Revelation 2:9 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
and the word "suffer" there in Revelation 2:10 is just another word for "Tribulation". which the church goes through.

now, the only victory that I see that the white horse rider having in Revelation chapter 6, is in the deceiving of the people. both in and outside of the church, for the Lord Jesus even himself said this, Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." which is in consistency with the deception of the whole world, by this rider, (a fake imitator of christ). this lines up exactly with the THE NOISOM BEAST of Ezekiel 14, (who is a false prophet), and which lines up with the “face of the Lion”, a deceiver, as with satan the devil. 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

so yes, the four Chariots lines up with the riders in Revelation 6. and the four living creatures/beast in Revelation chapter 4, and the 4 judgment of Ezekiel 14

PICJAG.

Thank you for looking at this....I have finished studying all of Revelation if you recall from a while back and I have caught a lot of details I missed before....but that is because of people like you who have added alot of knowledge to my searching mind....lol....I don't agree with everything but that's just human nature....right?
God Bless!

 

[101G]

Thank you for looking at this....I have finished studying all of Revelation if you recall from a while back and I have caught a lot of details I missed before....but that is because of people like you who have added alot of knowledge to my searching mind....lol....I don't agree with everything but that's just human nature....right?
God Bless!

Good, "GROW" in FAITH, and if you agree with everything I say then I might get the big head and consider sitting next to God.... LOL, LOL, LOL. but pointer like this, (Not always agreeing), keeps he humble, and striving for the prize that is in christ Jesus.

be blessed, and keep the faith.

PICJAG.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Stumpmaster, not for an argument, but for edification, you said, "the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator", right, I agree, but is not the Lord Jesus the CREATOR?

PICJAG.

Hi 101G.
The answer to your question is found in all the verses that show us God in Christ, doing all things by Him.

2Co 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:10-11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. (11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Because the fulness of the Father dwells in the Son we are able to see different aspects of God in Christ without any of them being diminished by the other. When we speak of the Lamb of God slain we focus on Christ the Redeemer, and His role in Creation resides with the Father until it is relevant to the narrative.

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (2) Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Col 1:12-19 Giving thanks unto the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (13) Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[101G]

The answer to your question is found in all the verses that show us God in Christ, doing all things by Him.

First thanks for the reply, and second, that's my point, if God went through, or was in Christ then that's contradictory to the scene here in Revelation chapter 5. listen,
Isaiah 43:14 "Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships."
Isaiah 43:15 "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."

The “Redeemer” who stands is also the “Creator” who sits. unless you have a different "creator", and or a different "Redeemer".
remember, not for an argument, but we need to look at facts. the fact that the bible clearly set as TRUTHS. so when you made the statement, "the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator". I agree, but, according to the bible the redeemer is the creator. so we have a problem to solve. again not for argument, but for edification of the body of Christ.

as I always do, give people the benefit of the doubt to explain what they are saying. so I'm asking how is the "LORD" who is creator, according to Isaiah 43:15, (and many other places in the bible), and is also the "Redeemer", the LORD, according to Isaiah 43:14, (and many other places in the bible), be standing and sitting at the same time? Isaiah 43:14 & 15 states the the LORD, is the same one person who is both "Creator", and "Redeemer". so how can he go through, (someone who he is?)

or, how is this one Person standing and sitting at the same time?

Looking to hear from you.

PICJAG.

 

[bbyrd009]

The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given.

contemplate a personal Apocalypse when you--if you--leave the world in preparation for the kingdom maybe :)

We know that the endtimes, in a sense, began after Jesus' died on the cross

we know no such thing wadr, as Jesus Himself referred to His lifetime as these last days, right?

But the endtimes is also our day, what we might call "the last of the last days." It is the time immediately preceding the return of Christ.

ok, if you say so, but i bet you can't Quote that :)
weird, i know

 

[Randy Kluth]

Very true. I find that there is chronological language used throughout the vision that lets us know much information.

For instance, the seals are opened, and then 7 trumpets are given to 7 angels, who begin to sound them. This tells me that the sounding of the trumpets, and those things which follow the sounding of each occur after the 7 seals are opened. This rules out the view that many hold to that the seals, trumpets, and bowls all describe the same set of 7 things happening, only each tells it from a different point of view. I know that cannot be true, because by the chronological language of the vision, it does supply a specific narrative, which I cannot ignore.

There are of course portions that leave this ordered narrative, and supply their own internal chronology, or in certain cases, not, leaving us to surmise where it fits in.

One thing I'll say too, is that I hold that symbols in Revelation are symbols if the text says they are. And if the text says they are, then the Bible will also give us the meaning of that symbol. For instance, "a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman, clothed with the stars, the sun at her head, the moon at her feet", I think it goes. We can look back to Genesis, and see how that fits what is written, and this is known, and supported in the text.

John wrote that the woman was given the wings of an eagle to flee from the dragon. God brought Israel out of Egypt on "the wings of an eagle". I see this as God using the two witnesses to strike the earth with plagues allowing the Israelites to flee to the wilderness.



1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What we tend to call a vision the Bible calls a revelation, this is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is "a" revelation, given to Jesus by God, for the purpose of showing us what will happen.

"Vision" is used 3 times in the Revelation, twice for what he saw,

4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

This would be more descriptive of the seeing of the appearance.

9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

This would be speaking of the vision as we think of it, the entirety of the supernatural "seeing", which is the basic meaning of the word. The vision is here singular. There is a singular revelation, a singular vision, an interrupted narrative, each, both overall narrative, and parathetical parts, I think both can be determined specifically from the text.

Much love!

So when you read that a creature opens a seal, and then something reacts to that, like peace being taken from the earth, do you think this is only a symbolic representation of something to take place in history, or do you think that it's something that will literally happen in the future? In other words, do you think this is literally and chronologically what will happen in the future, or do you think this is just designed and coordinated so John could relate what will happen through a series of symbolic visions?

I believe there will literally be peace taken from the earth, and I think that has been happening throughout NT history. But opening the seal is just a symbolic prop to show the meaning behind the event that is to take place. A literal seal is not to be opened in the future. It was already opened when Christ redeemed us. But it is shown as being opened in the future to convey an event that resulted from that past event, namely the death of Christ.

We have, for example, Ezekiel asked by God to go through a number of symbolic dramas to project a future judgment against Israel. He set up a little diorama just to show Israel, in symbolic terms, what will happen. Eze 4.

But can you imagine that as Ezekiel goes through this little enactment that Israel would look on him and view this building of a diorama as the actual future event, namely people building future little dioramas and not actually suffering the judgment it represented? Do you think the fact Ezekiel got down on his knees that somehow this reflects something that was to literally happen in the future, that an angel would get down on his knees before the judgment of Israel?

I believe Ezekiel getting down and setting up this siege works was designed to be symbolic of the future siege of Babylon against Israel. How Ezekiel acted in setting up the diorama had no prophetic significance whatsoever. And neither did John being caught up to heaven, being led into the wilderness, or watching vision after vision take place have any prophetic value. This was just how John saw the visions so that he could relate their meaning to us!

And that's what I think a lot of people do with the book of Revelation. John is caught up to heaven and shown things about the future in symbolic terms, seeing seals opened, trumpets blown, and vials poured out. It is the height of foolishness, I think, to believe that in the future real seals will be opened, trumpets blown, and vials poured out. And when John is caught up to heaven or taken to a wilderness, some think that these are things that will actually happen in the future, instead of merely representing how John saw these things, representing, in symbolic fashion, events that will happen in the future.

"First I saw, then I saw, then I saw" only represent the sequence in which John saw a variety of visions. Never do the visions themselves say the sequence in which John saw them represent a timing order in which these events will be fulfilled in history. It never meant that 1st one trumpet will be fulfilled, then another trumpet will be fulfilled, then another trumpet will be fulfilled, in chronological fashion. These are just the order in which John saw them, and what John had to do to see them. The chronology in which John related what he had to do to see the Revelation and to relate the visions were not intended to be the chronological order in which the visions themselves would be fulfilled!

When there is silence in heaven for half an hour, do you think that will literally take place, or do you think John is just shown the gravity of what will take place in the next vision? Do you think that when lightning flashes and thunders sound with event after event that each historical event these visions represent will be accompanied by literal lightning and thunder? Or do you think they are just props in which John saw the visions, to communicate to us how they relate to final judgment?

How you interpret the Revelation really matters, because if we misuse the symbols we will not understand the fulfillment. If we read a chronology into the series of visions John received, when no such timing sequence is indicated, then we are misrepresenting the Revelation entirely and misrepresenting the narrative as an ordered chronology according to the sequence of the visions. And this was only the order in which John saw them--not the order in which they will be fulfilled!

 

[Dcopymope]

The time frame is given in the Olivet Discourse. "All these are the beginning of sorrows".

THE WHITE HORSE
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

THE RED HORSE
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...

THE BLACK HORSE
...and there shall be famines...

THE PALE HORSE
and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The Four Horsemen were released in the 1st century and have been on earth since then. A lot of people believe that they have been in abeyance, but that is incorrect.

Yes, this is the only interpretation of the four horsemen that makes any sense at all. There is the "beginning of sorrows" which started long ago, and then there is the "last days", which in revelation begins with the opening of the sixth seal. This is one of the key differences between the Olivet Discourse and revelation. The former says the Great Tribulation comes first before the "Day of the Lord", while the latter says the exact opposite, that the "Day of the Lord" ushers in the Great Tribulation. The former says the seventh trumpet ushers in the Day of the Lord and the rapture, but the latter says the seventh trumpet ushers in the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, and THEN the rapture.

 

[Heart2Soul]

First thanks for the reply, and second, that's my point, if God went through, or was in Christ then that's contradictory to the scene here in Revelation chapter 5. listen,
Isaiah 43:14 "Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships."
Isaiah 43:15 "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."

The “Redeemer” who stands is also the “Creator” who sits. unless you have a different "creator", and or a different "Redeemer".
remember, not for an argument, but we need to look at facts. the fact that the bible clearly set as TRUTHS. so when you made the statement, "the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator". I agree, but, according to the bible the redeemer is the creator. so we have a problem to solve. again not for argument, but for edification of the body of Christ.

as I always do, give people the benefit of the doubt to explain what they are saying. so I'm asking how is the "LORD" who is creator, according to Isaiah 43:15, (and many other places in the bible), and is also the "Redeemer", the LORD, according to Isaiah 43:14, (and many other places in the bible), be standing and sitting at the same time? Isaiah 43:14 & 15 states the the LORD, is the same one person who is both "Creator", and "Redeemer". so how can he go through, (someone who he is?)

or, how is this one Person standing and sitting at the same time?

Looking to hear from you.

PICJAG.

He has 7 Spirits, correct? Could that apply in anyway?

 

[Dcopymope]

He has 7 Spirits, correct? Could that apply in anyway?

The seven spirits are the same seven lamps Zechariah had a vision of in Chapter 4 and John had in Revelation Ch 4 symbolizing the holy spirit, or the "spirit of God", that serves as his "eyes". As for what all the rest of that gibberish 101G wrote...well, who cares.