The Abortion Debate

[FlySwatter]

Continuing the discussion from this thread:

Christianity requires fear, guilt, and conformity

OK man. You lost the argument and that is why you are done but don't have the humility to admit abortion murders babies. It’s not a baby, it’s a fetus. Your birthday is not when you were conceived LOL, it’s when you made it out of the womb...

www.christianityboard.com

in order that it doesn't derail that thread.

 

[FlySwatter]

I believe that a human life is created when sperm fertilizes an egg.

What happens to the life of the sperm and the life of the egg?

 

[Patrick1966]

What happens to the life of the sperm and the life of the egg?

Unfertilized sperm and eggs die, right? I don't believe that they have souls. A human being is a combination of their mother AND father, I guess.

 

[FlySwatter]

You are fundamentally denying we are dealing with a 100% living human being. The fact that it has a unique human DNA proves this. You are appealing to Strawman in taking the converse. Pretending that I am claiming that DNA is a human. That is the converse of what I am claiming. DNA can be from a dead human. It is still human DNA.

No I haven't denied anything of the sort. I have iterated numerous times now that YES we are dealing with a life form that is of human species and has human DNA.

We are talking about a 100% living human being. The baby will go through stages of development but it is NOT transforming from a nonhuman to a human. It starts off at conception as human. No scientific term for humans early stages of development will make it not human. So, until you abandon your Appeal to Diversion with fertilised egg, zygote, blastocyst, fetus and embryo, I'll keep reminding you of the species, human.

Your difficulty here is understanding grammatical differences in the English language which is why I now start to wonder if English is your first language.

The word HUMAN can be an ADJECTIVE and a NOUN

HUMAN as an adjective can mean of the species Homo Sapiens

HUMAN as an adjective can mean having human traits as in "I make mistakes like everyone else, I am only human after all"

HUMAN as a noun (or human being) means a developed person with all the abilities and traits that separate us from other animals.

Google defines it thusly:

"a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance"

Britannica defines it similarly:

"human being, a culture-bearing primate classified in the genus Homo, especially the species H. sapiens. Human beings are anatomically similar and related to the great apes but are distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning"

In all cases a brain is needed to qualify as a human being

There is no human being that I am aware of, past or present, that had/has no brain.

If you know of one then let us all know

 

[FlySwatter]

Unfertilized sperm and eggs die, right?

Do they? I find it hard to believe myself. I mean they are both very much living human forms (with human DNA) and they simply get together. I don't know of any literature that states or shows that they actually die. I think that they transform rather than die, like a caterpillar into a butterfly. In the joining of one another the 2 become 1 and the lives that were already there become 1 life with their combined DNA. This being the case the "Life" we talk about is in fact much older than we think.

 

[FlySwatter]

@Patrick1966

Have a read of this

Fertilization - Egg Activation, Sperm Fusion, Zygote

Fertilization - Egg Activation, Sperm Fusion, Zygote: The acrosome reaction of spermatozoa is a prerequisite for the association between a spermatozoon and an egg, which occurs through fusion of their plasma membranes. After a spermatozoon comes in contact with an egg, the acrosome, which is a...

www.britannica.com

"After its entry into the egg cytoplasm, the spermatozoal nucleus, now called the male pronucleus, begins to swell, and its chromosomal material disperses and becomes similar in appearance to that of the female pronucleus. Although the membranous envelope surrounding the male pronucleus rapidly disintegrates in the egg, a new envelope promptly forms around it. The male pronucleus, which rotates 180° and moves towards the egg nucleus, initially is accompanied by two structures (centrioles) that function in cell division. After the male and female pronuclei have come into contact, the spermatozoal centrioles give rise to the first cleavage spindle, which precedes division of the fertilized egg. In some cases fusion of the two pronuclei may occur by a process of membrane fusion; in this process, two adjoining membranes fuse at the point of contact to give rise to the continuous nuclear envelope that surrounds the zygote nucleus."

I don't get the impression from the above that the sperm dies in any way.

It "swells", it changes appearance, creates a new envelop around itself, it rotates, it moves and so on.

 

[Patrick1966]

@Patrick1966

Have a read of this

Fertilization - Egg Activation, Sperm Fusion, Zygote

Fertilization - Egg Activation, Sperm Fusion, Zygote: The acrosome reaction of spermatozoa is a prerequisite for the association between a spermatozoon and an egg, which occurs through fusion of their plasma membranes. After a spermatozoon comes in contact with an egg, the acrosome, which is a...

www.britannica.com

"After its entry into the egg cytoplasm, the spermatozoal nucleus, now called the male pronucleus, begins to swell, and its chromosomal material disperses and becomes similar in appearance to that of the female pronucleus. Although the membranous envelope surrounding the male pronucleus rapidly disintegrates in the egg, a new envelope promptly forms around it. The male pronucleus, which rotates 180° and moves towards the egg nucleus, initially is accompanied by two structures (centrioles) that function in cell division. After the male and female pronuclei have come into contact, the spermatozoal centrioles give rise to the first cleavage spindle, which precedes division of the fertilized egg. In some cases fusion of the two pronuclei may occur by a process of membrane fusion; in this process, two adjoining membranes fuse at the point of contact to give rise to the continuous nuclear envelope that surrounds the zygote nucleus."

I don't get the impression from the above that the sperm dies in any way.

It "swells", it changes appearance, creates a new envelop around itself, it rotates, it moves and so on.

about 74 days

If sperm is not ejaculated, it stays in the man's body for about 74 days. After this, the sperm cells die and are reabsorbed by the body.

Best Fertility Clinic - Top Infertility Hospital/Centre in India | Nova IVF › ...

How long the sperm lives inside the testicles? - Nova IVF​

 

[FlySwatter]

about 74 days

If sperm is not ejaculated, it stays in the man's body for about 74 days. After this, the sperm cells die and are reabsorbed by the body.
View attachment 32120

Oh yes indeed, if the sperm doesn't go anywhere then it eventually perishes and more drastically so once the sperm leaves the body.

What I'm referring to however is the sperm that manages to reach a woman's egg and penetrate it and fuse with it. The life of THAT sperm imo does not die but together with the life of the woman's egg they together provide the life for the new form with their combined DNA.
I don't believe they both suddenly perish in the act of joining and then magically poof a new life force suddenly materialises out of nowhere.

Mark 10:6
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh"

Note that they were male and female "from the beginning of creation" not from the moment of conception. The two will become one flesh.

Not "the two will die and out from their bodies shall come a new life"

As you state your faith as Christian I will ask you the same question that I asked the other poster.

What actually is life? What property or thing is it that animates a blob of flesh and blood and makes it an animated walking talking human being?

 

[Patrick1966]

What actually is life?

The immortal soul gifted to us from our loving creator.

 

[FlySwatter]

The immortal soul gifted to us from our loving creator.

So if it is immortal, and it is this that is the "life" in human beings, then in what possible sense is abortion killing anything? You can not kill that which is immortal.

The reality in my view is that this life force or soul or spirit or whatever we wish to call it, is in every living thing. It is everywhere. And I guess that's a form of Pantheism.

As such mere humans can't change this status quo. Whatever we do this life force will continue, it will persist, because as you rightly say, it is immortal. The same life force is in a man and a woman, and the same life force was in their parents. The same life force is in the sperm and the egg which then fuse to make a new FORM which harbours the SAME life force that was already there.

Presumably god knows all this which is probably why he had no issues with killing multitudes of people in the OT. He knows that only the body is killed. The life force itself is indestructible.

 

[Patrick1966]

So if it is immortal, and it is this that is the "life" in human beings, then in what possible sense is abortion killing anything? You can not kill that which is immortal.

Thou shall not kill.
Do unto others...

There are probably more but this should suffice. We're called to follow Jesus and to obey his commandments.

 

[Patrick1966]

So if it is immortal, and it is this that is the "life" in human beings, then in what possible sense is abortion killing anything? You can not kill that which is immortal.

The reality in my view is that this life force or soul or spirit or whatever we wish to call it, is in every living thing. It is everywhere. And I guess that's a form of Pantheism.

As such mere humans can't change this status quo. Whatever we do this life force will continue, it will persist, because as you rightly say, it is immortal. The same life force is in a man and a woman, and the same life force was in their parents. The same life force is in the sperm and the egg which then fuse to make a new FORM which harbours the SAME life force that was already there.

Presumably god knows all this which is probably why he had no issues with killing multitudes of people in the OT. He knows that only the body is killed. The life force itself is indestructible.

May I ask, do you believe in Jesus?

 

[FlySwatter]

Thou shall not kill.
Do unto others...

There are probably more but this should suffice. We're called to follow Jesus and to obey his commandments.

Don't you think this refers to actual human beings?

Is it ok to kill a sperm? It is after all a life, it lives, it is human, has human DNA?

Millions of men kill sperm every single day. Are they murderers?

Likewise millions of women kill their eggs via various means. Are they murderers too?

It illogical to suggest that it's ok to kill a sperm and it's ok to kill an egg but it's not ok to kill a sperm and egg that have been put in the "same room".

 

[FlySwatter]

May I ask, do you believe in Jesus?

As an historical character yes, there seems to be a fair bit of literature describing such a person. However what I believe or don't believe isn't really relevant to the science and biology of humans is it?

 

[Patrick1966]

Don't you think this refers to actual human beings?

Is it ok to kill a sperm? It is after all a life, it lives, it is human, has human DNA?

Millions of men kill sperm every single day. Are they murderers?

Likewise millions of women kill their eggs via various means. Are they murderers too?

It illogical to suggest that it's ok to kill a sperm and it's ok to kill an egg but it's not ok to kill a sperm and egg that have been put in the "same room".

I don't believe it's pleasing to God for a healthy woman to intentionally destroy her healthy offspring.

 

[Patrick1966]

As an historical character yes, there seems to be a fair bit of literature describing such a person. However what I believe or don't believe isn't really relevant to the science and biology of humans is it?

You're right. I'll leave you be.

 

[FlySwatter]

I don't believe it's pleasing to God for a healthy woman to intentionally destroy her healthy offspring.

And what about intentionally destroying either sperm or eggs?

Why is that ok?

 

[Patrick1966]

And what about intentionally destroying either sperm or eggs?

Why is that ok?

 

[FlySwatter]

Ok no problem. I realise these are tricky issues to confront.

 

[Patrick1966]

Ok no problem. I realise these are tricky issues to confront.