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The Age of God’s Grace

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That is exactly what I mean. He said it, didn't he?

    Colossians 1:13 "[God] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
     
  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    The flesh sanctifies Christ???
     
  3. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    If this truth was seen, men would realize how opposite to the Spirit the institution is, teaching with wise words, but according to power... Counting according to education, and not anointing... Heavenly understanding... Spiritual gifting... Wisdom.

    Those things are overlooked for a man's earthly smarts and abilities.
     
  4. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    And how did Jesus walk? He walked in believe, faith, trust, confidence that He was the Son of God and that even though He would be put to death on a cross He would be raised from the grave. And He did it because He loved us.

    Your claim that I am teaching a false gospel is just your opinion. My opinion is that you are teaching a false gospel where it is all about you and your good works. You keep on saying you are like Christ and your love for others is seriously lacking.

    What did Satan tell Eve? Wasn't is that if she would eat of the forbidden fruit she would be like God? And here are you telling everyone that you are like God.

    You said; "Quite opposite of the false gospel presented by Richard, according to which you know you're in him if you know you're in him, but not by the fruit, because according to Richard, it is impossible that we bear the heavenly fruit!"

    You want to be like God while still living in a body of sin. Again you make a false statement against me. I have never said the children of God do not bear fruit and you know it. You will make a false statement against me (a sin) and then sit back and say you are sinless.

    What fruit do you have? Do you teach the gospel of grace so that more sinful people can enter heaven? Or is your fruit your false claims that you are like God. How does that spead the word of salvation except to the ones who want to be God.



    I noticed that you did not include verse 25

    Romans 7:25
    25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
    NKJV

    Why did you do that?

    You don't know the difference in flesh and spirit. All of these things you claim are spiritual. It is our Spirit that has been born again, not our sinful flesh.

    You said: "I beg you please consider:" Rubbish, so you think I should throw away my faith in Jesus and place it in your opinions of scriptures. Not in this life!!! Your inflated opinion of yourself knows no bounds. I have read the scriptures that God provided mankind and, as the scriptures say, my teacher is the Holy Spirit, not man.

    John 3:5-8
    5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
    8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
    NKJV


    I can't see that Jesus said that when we are born of the Spirit we are no longer flesh.

    Your idea that our flesh is translated NOW is rubbish.
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    You obviously do not know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven. It is our spirit that has been translated, not our flesh.
     
  6. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Yeah and he was sinful too, right? :blink:

    Are you mad?

    This is not about being 'confident' that you are something... This isn't a placebo effect or 'think it and you are it'. You have to actually BE. Actually BE walking in the light of God, just as Christ walked, doing the works of the Father.

    [sup]4[/sup] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [sup]5[/sup] And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [sup]6[/sup] Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
    [sup]7[/sup] Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [sup]8[/sup] He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [sup]9[/sup] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    By the fruits, we know one. According to you, there is no such thing as fruit.


    You are twisting what I have said. I have never said I am like God. None is like the Lord, but we can walk perfectly as Christ. I am saying that by the power of Christ, all things are possible, including walking as he walked.

    I do not want to be God, I desire to be one with God, as we all should, not out of ambition, but out of love for our master, because it is what he desires also, and what he has called us to. This, which is good, you call evil.

    God is not trying to find a scheme to hide people's sins and bring them into heaven though they are no different from those who perish... Rather he has made a way that they might be purified, and be holy as he is holy. When Jesus said 'be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect', was he calling the disciples to do something no man should do, or seek to do, which is evil, as you say when I say this?

    According to what you say, Jesus was either sinful, or he wasn't really a man. You deny Christ.
     
  7. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I do wish Episkopos would really study the scriptures for what they actually say.

    1 Corinthians 6:11
    11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    NKJV
     
  8. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    While living in a body of flesh, yes. It is not translated in the imagination, and thinking you are translated makes you no more translated than a stray dog on the street. It is an actual reality where the saints of God are walking in the heavenlies.

    Before you say I am claiming to do this, no, I am not there, but this is the call of the gospel.
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    So you are saying Jesus was sinful, right?

    All of mankind should be grateful that God has instituted a salvation that saves sinners because we are all sinners.

    When the scriptures say that Jesus' shed blood covers our sins, what does that mean? If they don't exist then how can they be covered.

    The only difference between men/women, living in sinful bodies that sin, is that those who are made children of God, BELIEVE GOD. They believe that Jesus' shed blood has reconciled them to God. Because they believe God they are made children of God. It is a free gift to those that will place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in God's promises "in Christ."

    You take a statement made by Jesus to the Jews under the Law of Moses as being a statement for those under grace. Jesus did not say this to the Gentiles under grace. You can't seem to see that we are under grace, not law. You twist the word of God. The only way a person is sinless is in their spirit that has been born of God. The flesh still sins. -- In other words God has made the children of God to be sinless "in Christ." Not in our sinful bodies.

    And yes, God has insituted a scheme (as you call it, I call it the gospel of grace) to hide people's sins and bring them into heaven though they are no different from those who perish except that they have placed their belief, faith, trust, confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross that reconciles them to God.

    Romans 1:16-17 -- The Just Live by Faith
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
    NKJV

    Prentis, I do wish you understood the gospel of grace.
     
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    ...The flesh is sanctified BY what it is carrying!!! :)
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    OK that sounds better than what you posted earlier. :)
     
  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I type too fast!!!!! Thanks for the catch! :)
     
  13. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Truly believing into Christ always brings the fruit along with it.

    [sup]1[/sup] Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. [sup]2[/sup] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. [sup]3[/sup] For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. [sup]4[/sup] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[sup][a][/sup] faith. [sup]5[/sup] Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

    According to you, this overcoming does not happen... The fruit is impossible for one to have...

    You speak many words that sound right. Being in Christ... Trusting in Jesus... But you mean it in a way that has no bearing on reality. Rather than God truly transforming us now and making us agents of his life, we remain powerless... There is no Pentecost according to what you say... No power.

    This is not the gospel.
     
  14. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Just keep it up Prentis. You know very well that I believe, and the scriptures confirm it, that we overcome by placing our faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

    We are placed 'in Christ' spiritually. Our flesh bodies are not placed "in Christ." We, the children of God are spiritual and have been placed "in Christ" by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not by our (your) power.

    1 John 5:4-5
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
    5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
    NKJV

    But you refuse to see this because you want to overcome by your works. You will look at the verse above and say " That is not enough, a person has to have his/her works.
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Spiritually meaning hypothetically? Spiritually so that no one in the world would know?

    So we can only move invisible mountains by faith?
     
  16. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Do you wish to glorify yourself. I don't. I wish to tell the lost that Jesus made a way for them to become children of God by faith in Him.

    If you could move mountains by your power you could make a fortune in the construction industry. But you can't. A child of God has moved a mountain of sin from his/her debt to God by faith in the work and power of God.

    John 3:5-8
    5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (two separate things, flesh and spirit)

    7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

    8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
    NKJV


    Can you see the wind?
     
  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    But all men can testify to the presence of the wind because things change when it blows. That is the witness of Christians, that the world sees that they are holy! THEY glorify God because of the saints....the unbelievers do this. It is only the religious leaders, who are afraid and jealous of the saints, who seek to persecute the holy ones.

    The testimony of a Christian should be a light in the world.

    Here are a few verses...

    Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
    Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


    So the indoctrinated Christians do the same thing but through a false understanding of grace.

    So it could read

    ?You make your boast in grace and dishonour God by breaking the law For the name of God is blasphemed among the Jews through you, as it is written.

    The truth is that grace empowers us to be obedient to the law...and even surpass it!!!!

    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

    John 8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
     
  19. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    You said earlier:
    "Only my spirit that has been reborn and placed "in Christ" is holy and perfect. My spirit can not sin because it has been born of God. However, my flesh has not been reborn and is still a body of sin and will sin."

    Let me rephrase. Your gospel has no power IN THIS LIFE. You preach something that is meaningless now, and makes us no different. Thus your gospel is powerless to overcome the flesh. According to you, one cannot do the works of the Spirit while in a flesh body. One cannot be spiritual...
     
  20. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    1 Corinthians 6:15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.”

    Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”

    Hebrews 10:22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”

    Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
     
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