The answer of hell and its origins

[Phoneman777]

@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire is allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

Agree 100% that the Hell is not an eternal place of eternal torture, but is "The Fire that Consumes" to quote the title of Fudge's book.

Check out "After Death, Then What?" and "When And Where Is Hell?" - two of the best, most comprehensive studies on the subject, IMHO.

 

[dev553344]

It's called the grave.

No I don't see it that way. After we die we are spirits like Satan and his angels or God's angels. And if Satan can cause problems for others even humans as a spirit then them that have died can do likewise. God takes care of it with prison or paradise. They are imprisoned so they can't cause problems for them that follow God.

It's really not difficult to understand.

 

[face2face]

No I don't see it that way. After we die we are spirits like Satan and his angels or God's angels. And if Satan can cause problems for others even humans as a spirit then them that have died can do likewise. God takes care of it with prison or paradise. They are imprisoned so they can't cause problems for them that follow God.

It's really not difficult to understand.

Disagree but all I ask is use Scripture to support your beliefs. This way I'm able to respond with substance.

 

[The Third One]

The biggest problem with the dogma in this room is not knowing the difference between Hell and the Lake of Fire. Hell is for "punishment" (for lack of a better word). Fire Lake is for eternal destruction.

There is no Biblical documentation of any human being thrown into the Lake of Fire. According to the book of Revelation, Hell, itself, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is an EMPTY Hell that is thrown in. In his Lazarus/Rich man/Abraham Heaven/Hell parable, Jesus does not say people will spend forever in Hell. Jesus says that calling for Father Abraham's help to get you out of Hell is what will get you nowhere. You guys also have no idea what is meant by Sheol. I agree with face2face, none of you have come close to answering his questions yet.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The biggest problem with the dogma in this room is not knowing the difference between Hell and the Lake of Fire. Hell is for "punishment" (for lack of a better word). Fire Lake is for eternal destruction.

There is no Biblical documentation of any human being thrown into the Lake of Fire. According to the book of Revelation, Hell, itself, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is an EMPTY Hell that is thrown in. In his Lazarus/Rich man/Abraham Heaven/Hell parable, Jesus does not say people will spend forever in Hell. Jesus says that calling for Father Abraham's help to get you out of Hell is what will get you nowhere. You guys also have no idea what is meant by Sheol. I agree with face2face, none of you have come close to answering his questions yet.

Welcome to Christianity Boards.
Fasten your seat belts boys..... it's gonna be a bumpy ride......Betty Davis !

 

[The Third One]

lol. She's got Betty Davis eyes. The eyes do not lie.

 

[Jack]

The biggest problem with the dogma in this room is not knowing the difference between Hell and the Lake of Fire. Hell is for "punishment" (for lack of a better word). Fire Lake is for eternal destruction.

There is no Biblical documentation of any human being thrown into the Lake of Fire. According to the book of Revelation, Hell, itself, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is an EMPTY Hell that is thrown in. In his Lazarus/Rich man/Abraham Heaven/Hell parable, Jesus does not say people will spend forever in Hell. Jesus says that calling for Father Abraham's help to get you out of Hell is what will get you nowhere. You guys also have no idea what is meant by Sheol. I agree with face2face, none of you have come close to answering his questions yet.

Oh my, the JW twist!

 

[The Third One]

LOL! I am not a JW. Why would you think that? JWs believe that Hell is eternal, and that you, me and everyone else is going there.. IF you're NOT a JW.

Sheol is "O Grave," aka: "O Death." To experience anything in Sheol is to experience Hell; otherwise, Sheol is exactly what Solomon (the wisest man of his time) says that Sheol is. It is NOTHING. As in, it is nothingness.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV): "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

"Thou" being one of the lucky ones as Solomon suggests, who "goest" into nothingness. As in, "rest in peace." Otherwise...

To be in Hell is to KNOW that you are in Hell. Otherwise...

Impossible, if you are in a place where "there is no knowledge, nor wisdom." Those in Hell would experience "their worm" which "does not die and the fire" which "is not quenched." (Mark 9:48) Impossible, if you are in a place where there "no device" of any kind. And, to be in Hell would be to be in a place where you are struggling to escape from it. Impossible, if you are in a place where there is "no work" of any kind.

Therefore, there is only one experience for any of us in the grave. And, that would be Hell.

Or... there is no experience at all. Becoming one with NOTHING.

From OUR perspective ("OUR perspective" meaning, those of us who are still "here" in this life) those of us, who have passed on before us, are either in Hell or they have "become NOTHING." Either way, "in Hell" or "in NOTHING," this "Death" which all of us have inadvertently brought upon ourselves by becoming slaves to Master Knowledge of Good & Evil, is precisely why it is so beneficial for all of us to be rescued from Death. "Saved" as Christians like to refer to it. "RANSOMED" as Jesus and the Holy Spirit like to refer to it. Our "Ambulance Ride To the Hospital" as our Father in Heaven likes to refer to it. "Truly Accepting What's Been Done For Us On the Cross" as I like to refer to it.

 

[RLT63]

LOL! I am not a JW. Why would you think that? JWs believe that Hell is eternal, and that you, me and everyone else is going there.. IF you're NOT a JW.

Sheol is "O Grave," aka: "O Death." To experience anything in Sheol is to experience Hell; otherwise, Sheol is exactly what Solomon (the wisest man of his time) says that Sheol is. It is NOTHING. As in, it is nothingness.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV): "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

"Thou" being one of the lucky ones as Solomon suggests, who "goest" into nothingness. As in, "rest in peace." Otherwise...

To be in Hell is to KNOW that you are in Hell. Otherwise...

Impossible, if you are in a place where "there is no knowledge, nor wisdom." Those in Hell would experience "their worm" which "does not die and the fire" which "is not quenched." (Mark 9:48) Impossible, if you are in a place where there "no device" of any kind. And, to be in Hell would be to be in a place where you are struggling to escape from it. Impossible, if you are in a place where there is "no work" of any kind.

Therefore, there is only one experience for any of us in the grave. And, that would be Hell.

Or... there is no experience at all. Becoming one with NOTHING.

From OUR perspective ("OUR perspective" meaning, those of us who are still "here" in this life) those of us, who have passed on before us, are either in Hell or they have "become NOTHING." Either way, "in Hell" or "in NOTHING," this "Death" which all of us have inadvertently brought upon ourselves by becoming slaves to Master Knowledge of Good & Evil, is precisely why it is so beneficial for all of us to be rescued from Death. "Saved" as Christians like to refer to it. "RANSOMED" as Jesus and the Holy Spirit like to refer to it. Our "Ambulance Ride To the Hospital" as our Father in Heaven likes to refer to it. "Truly Accepting What's Been Done For Us On the Cross" as I like to refer to it.

I don't think that's what JWs believe. You can check with Aunty Jane she seems to be the expert on JW doctrine.

 

[Jack]

LOL! I am not a JW. Why would you think that? JWs believe that Hell is eternal, and that you, me and everyone else is going there.. IF you're NOT a JW.

I've never read where a JW believes Hell is eternal.

 

[RLT63]

I've never read where a JW believes Hell is eternal.

Neither have I.

 

[Space_Karen]

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?

Mercy carries rules and obligations. But don't forget that justice carries demands and obligations as well.

Only God has the knowledge and power to judge humanity fairly as each individual deserves.

In the process of dispensing justice, the main concern is whether the punishment matches the crime.

The existence of hell implies some have committed crimes great enough to deserve to be imprisoned in such a place.

God being merciful doesn't imply that some won't receive what they deserve.

Mercy and justice tend to conflict in that way.

 

[face2face]

Mercy carries rules and obligations. But don't forget that justice carries demands and obligations as well.

Only God has the knowledge and power to judge humanity fairly as each individual deserves.

In the process of dispensing justice, the main concern is whether the punishment matches the crime.

The existence of hell implies some have committed crimes great enough to deserve to be imprisoned in such a place.

God being merciful doesn't imply that some won't receive what they deserve.

Mercy and justice tend to conflict in that way.

No, the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23.
While there are varying degrees of sins the result is the same for all.
F2F

 

[Space_Karen]

No, the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23.
While there are varying degrees of sins the result is the same for all.
F2F

Everyone dies.

But it doesn't mean that everything in the bible was meant to be interpreted literally.

 

[face2face]

Everyone dies.

But it doesn't mean that everything in the bible was meant to be interpreted literally.

It's not...Jesus uses the imagery of Gehenna to show the severity of death. Death can be characterised numerous ways many of which are not literal. Figurative language is why so many Christians have been sold this idea of eternal torment being literal...everything in the Scripture requires defining.
F2F

 

[Space_Karen]

It's not...Jesus uses the imagery of Gehenna to show the severity of death. Death can be characterised numerous ways many of which are not literal. Figurative language is why so many Christians have been sold this idea of eternal torment being literal...everything in the Scripture requires defining.
F2F

...

That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows.

But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Luke 12: 47-48

Punishment occurs on a case by case basis.

Rather than a linear and flat one-size-fits-all plan.

 

[face2face]

...



Punishment occurs on a case by case basis.

Rather than a linear and flat one-size-fits-all plan.

Provide an example.

 

[Space_Karen]

Provide an example.

If jaywalking and grand theft auto don't carry the same penalty in our court system.

Would they carry the same penalty in God's?

There is a verse in the bible that says: "don't fear man who can kill the body, fear God who can destroy the soul".

Hell is one option for sinners. God destroying souls outright appears to be another option.

If there is more than one penalty for sinning, then exactly how sinners are treated in God's Justice System isn't a one size fits all arrangement.

Its hard to put into context as we do not know how long of a list of sins the rich man who conversed with Abraham from hell had to his name.

But even though Lazarus was poor and suffered in life, its probably safe to say he was a sinner and imperfect. He did not wind up in hell simply due to having sins in his past. So it could be inaccurate to say the wages of sin are death, in a literal sense.

 

[The Learner]

I don't think that's what JWs believe. You can check with Aunty Jane she seems to be the expert on JW doctrine.

I would love to meet her and talk with her for a long time.

 

[The Learner]

I've never read where a JW believes Hell is eternal.

They trist it to say hell is eternal destruction.