The answer of hell and its origins

[Earburner]

I do have the Spirit to advise me of the TRUTH ,which I comprehend quite well.

He also test the spirits of others in all the words they say and your thoughts are a mess.

Whomever is your teacher in human form, I would divorce myself from them. You are not learning from God but from the spirit of this world, and it is in error.

It will keep you from the goal !

I have 5 questions for you, pertaining to "the goal".

1. Have you been born again by the Spirit of Christ?
2. Are you now a partaker of the divine nature?
3. By taking part in Jesus' resurrection, did you receive the Gift of eternal Life?
4. Have you spiritually become a participant with the risen Christ?
5. Are you a new creature, because of His Spirit within you?

Edit: I hope that all of your 5 answers would be "Yes".
Do you agree?

 

[Grailhunter]

In my opinion the Jehovah Witnesses are a life style of blasphemy, that can lead to Hell. But they do not entirely fit the definition of cult. But the professionals disagree with me. Professional interventionists say they are a cult. I think there is a few reasons for this....
1. What happens when a individual tries to leave the group.
2. How they conduct themselves when they go door to door many times is deceitful. One of your children may answer the door and they are facing people that do not believe Yeshua is a God nor believe in Hell, and this is not a topic that comes up right off. But their intent is to get people to believe as they do. Your kids can be alone facing a group of people that are essentially anti-Christs.
3. Interventionists will tell you that one of the ways they know that the Jehovah Witnesses are a cult is the responses they get from victims. A lot of their Bible study is to defend their blasphemous beliefs, these people are drilled on this. So their responses are rehearsed. This is something I have seen for myself, my aunt was a Jehovah Witness and they tried it on me.

But I don't think their radical blasphemous beliefs, entirely define them as a cult, just dangerous and evil and probably better defined as anti-Christs. So beware! If you are a Jehovah Witness, repent and find another religion, there are plenty of good Christian religions out there that will get you Heaven. But there is no salvation with the Jehovah Witnesses, just a lifestyle of sin and evil.

 

[The Learner]

start at Sep 21, 2022#8

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I know WE AS BELIEVERS are to be the Bride of Christ, His Church, the redeemed, purchased under his shed blood for the wages of sin.

At the acceptance of the gift of Salvation by our faith thru his grace we agree to allow the Spirit full reign, guidance, intercession, and a transforimg of us into Christ righteousness.

This makes us partakers of God , his Word, his Spirit, his promises and his blessings. There are CONDITIONS to a discipleship of Christ and walking in the Father's will. We must put off the deeds of the flesh and put on the work of God and his Spirit.

Rejection of God, his Word and his will means there is NO RELATIONSHIP with God! Light & dark; evil & good; flesh & Spirit, these opposites cannnot be served together for Jesus said ye would hate the one and love the other !

Hell was created by God only for the devil and the angels that rebelled against him,not mankind. It is God's will that NONE should perish. He proved his love toward us in the giving of his only begotten Son, taking our sins with him to the cross, to be cast aside, never to be remembered against us.

The grace of God in HIS love we receive by faith, not bc we earned it, for our righteousness is as filthy rags, but rather bc of his great LOVE!

In rejecting his gift of salvation, we reject ALL THAT IS GOD! There are no half measures, you're either all in or OUT.

The OUT is outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, & torment, for those who reject God and continue in unbelief.

The final place of eternal [ we cannot reconcile this concept in ourselves ] torment, torture, fires of punishment, will be the lake of fire where hell, the devil, rejectors of God, wicked angels and all that do not serve God will go.
This is God's final word on the matter!

 

[Earburner]

Hell was created by God only for the devil and the angels that rebelled against him,not mankind. It is God's will that NONE should perish. He proved his love toward us in the giving of his only begotten Son, taking our sins with him to the cross, to be cast aside, never to be remembered against us.

Matt.25[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
As for the word "brethren", you should know that it is in reference to "born again" Christians only.
Note: [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Romans 8:9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[dev553344]

@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire is allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

I think of hell as nothing different than a prison to keep perpetrators from harming others or harassing them. It's a place created to protect the innocent from the wicked.

 

[face2face]

I think of hell as nothing different than a prison to keep perpetrators from harming others or harassing them. It's a place created to protect the innocent from the wicked.

It's called the grave.

 

[The Learner]

It's called the grave.

Isaiah 14:3-11

New International Version

3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:



How the oppressor has come to an end!

How his fury[a] has ended!

5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,

the scepter of the rulers,

6 which in anger struck down peoples

with unceasing blows,

and in fury subdued nations

with relentless aggression.

7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;

they break into singing.

8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon

gloat over you and say,

“Now that you have been laid low,

no one comes to cut us down.”



9 The realm of the dead below is all astir

to meet you at your coming;

it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—

all those who were leaders in the world;

it makes them rise from their thrones—

all those who were kings over the nations.

10 They will all respond,

they will say to you,

“You also have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us.”

11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,

along with the noise of your harps;

maggots are spread out beneath you

and worms cover you.



Isiah proves beyond doubt that the dead in the grave are awake and alive. Thus, their souls are still alive.

 

[face2face]

Isaiah 14:3-11

New International Version

3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:



How the oppressor has come to an end!

How his fury[a] has ended!

5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,

the scepter of the rulers,

6 which in anger struck down peoples

with unceasing blows,

and in fury subdued nations

with relentless aggression.

7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;

they break into singing.

8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon

gloat over you and say,

“Now that you have been laid low,

no one comes to cut us down.”



9 The realm of the dead below is all astir

to meet you at your coming;

it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—

all those who were leaders in the world;

it makes them rise from their thrones—

all those who were kings over the nations.

10 They will all respond,

they will say to you,

“You also have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us.”

11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,

along with the noise of your harps;

maggots are spread out beneath you

and worms cover you.



Isiah proves beyond doubt that the dead in the grave are awake and alive. Thus, their souls are still alive.

No, the mighty king of Babylon is brought down to the grave as per Daniel 4:18-33 & Daniel 5:25-31 along with the noise of his harps, he is covered by worms;

"Hell" in Isaiah 14:9 and Isaiah 14:11 is the "grave" (both are the Heb word "sheol"<7585> and mean grave).

The imagery is confronting though!

Not hard really.

 

[Jack]

No, the mighty king of Babylon is brought down to the grave as per Daniel 4:18-33 & Daniel 5:25-31 along with the noise of his harps, he is covered by worms;

"Hell" in Isaiah 14:9 and Isaiah 14:11 is the "grave" (both are the Heb word "sheol"<7585> and mean grave).

The imagery is confronting though!

Not hard really.

Well yeah, the grave is a step towards Hell fire. Have you never read Luke 16? The rich man died and was tormented in the fire. He was quite alive!

 

[The Learner]

No, the mighty king of Babylon is brought down to the grave as per Daniel 4:18-33 & Daniel 5:25-31 along with the noise of his harps, he is covered by worms;

"Hell" in Isaiah 14:9 and Isaiah 14:11 is the "grave" (both are the Heb word "sheol"<7585> and mean grave).

The imagery is confronting though!

Not hard really.

Brother, I thought it was clear that it is the grave, sheol. The point of the text is, they are awake and sleep like we do.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

face2face said,
I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.[/QUOTE\]

You're right, in the scriptures there is no biblical evidence of human beings having a immortal soul. In fact the scriptures show us that human beings are souls not that they have souls. At Genesis 2:7 this scripture shows us that God took dust from the ground and formed it into a flesh and blood human body then blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body, and that flesh and blood human body, became a living soul or living person.

So I understand when you say you believe humans go to the grave upon death, that doesn't mean human beings literally have something inside their human bodies that leaves their body and goes to a literal place at death called the grave. When the scriptures say that the dead go to the grave it's not talking about some individual grave or individual tomb that a human body is put. It's talking about gravedom or the common grave of all mankind. You have to look at the grave (gravedom or the common grave of all dead mankind) as symbolic. When the breath of life(spirit) leaves a human beings flesh and blood human body it's not talking about some living soul or living person leaving the flesh and blood human body, it's talking about the flesh and blood human body ceasing to exist as a living soul or living person. So the only hope a human being has when they die is that the true God remembers them in the resurrection. There will be those that will cease to exist as a living soul or living person permanently because the True God who can read minds at hearts, can when a person dies, judge whether they deserve a resurrection or not. Those who are judged worthy of a resurrection will cease to exist as a living person temporarily until the resurrection begins, then they are resurrected back into existence with flesh and blood human bodies which are living souls or living persons.

 

[Jack]

Revelation 20 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

 

[face2face]

Those who are judged worthy of a resurrection will cease to exist as a living person temporarily until the resurrection begins, then they are resurrected back into existence with flesh and blood human bodies which are living souls or living persons.

Whole heartily agree!

I would clarify your last statement to suggest we are resurrected to Bodies energised by the Spirit so not flesh and blood so much as flesh and spirit though my personal opinion thinks we are not confined to such a nature though we can take it on like the angels. Flesh nature would be consumed in God's presence which makes me think we shall be given divine nature which I am not qualified to define in my mortal limited nature.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Those who are judged worthy of a resurrection will cease to exist as a living person temporarily until the resurrection begins, then they are resurrected back into existence with flesh and blood human bodies which are living souls or living persons.

They will "cease to exist" temporarily? Seriously???

Just when you think you've heard it all. So God is going to destroy them and then recreate them? Sounds like more Kingdom Hall insanity!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Whole heartily agree!

I would clarify your last statement to suggest we are resurrected to Bodies energised by the Spirit so not flesh and blood so much as flesh and spirit though my personal opinion thinks we are not confined to such a nature though we can take it on like the angels. Flesh nature would be consumed in God's presence which makes me think we shall be given divine nature which I am not qualified to define in my mortal limited nature.

F2F

Those human beings who the True God has chosen from among human beings who will be resurrected in that heavenly Messianic Kingdom who will be kings, priests, and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic Kingdom and who will rule over human beings on earth during the thousand year reign of Jesus will be resurrected not as human beings but as spirit beings who will be rewarded with immortality and inherited incorruption. These who will be Kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic Kingdom, although resurrected as spirit beings rewarded with immortality and inherited incorruption are the ones who can manifest themselves to look like flesh and blood human beings, like the angels. These who are resurrected into that heavenly Messianic Kingdom, the second death has no authority over them.

In the resurrection of those who are resurrected back on earth as living persons they will not be resurrected with the same exact flesh and blood human body since it has decayed back into the earth, but the bodies they will be resurrected with will be flesh and blood human bodies that are sinful in nature, since that's who they were when they died, but since they are resurrected during the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, Jesus by using his ransom sacrifice more fully than he is now will during the thousand year reign will take mankind toward sinless perfection so that by the time the thousand year reign of Jesus ends every human beings flesh and blood human body will be a sinless flesh and blood human body that will be without spot or blemish, just like Adam had when the True God first created him.

But those human beings resurrected back on earth they don't come alive until the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean there will be a resurrection at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ it means that when the thousand year reign of Jesus ends every human being will have a sinless flesh and blood human body without spot or blemish like Adam had when first created. They will truly be alive because at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus, death that was brought into existence when the first Adam disobeyed God will no longer exist. So all human beings on earth will no longer have a sinful nature at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus, no human being will be growing old and dying or be getting sick and dying because they no longer have sin in their flesh and blood human bodies. So those who sin in the last test when Satan is released from the Abyss when the thousand year reign of Jesus ends, those human beings who fail the test, do not sin because of a sinful nature in their flesh and blood human bodies but instead it's a deliberate choice of rebellion against God just like Adam made a deliberate choice of rebellion against God. God's original purpose for planet earth was that there will always be human beings with sinless flesh and blood human bodies without spot or blemish existing on a paradise earth for eternity. This will happen one day because no one can stop Gods purpose.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They will "cease to exist" temporarily? Seriously???

Just when you think you've heard it all. So God is going to destroy them and then recreate them? Sounds like more Kingdom Hall insanity!

What you don't want to believe is what Genesis 2:7 teaches us. God's word doesn't say that God gave human beings souls, it teaches us that human beings are souls. Genesis 2:7 clearly teaches us that God took dust from the ground, formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body, then blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So when that breath of life(spirit) isn't in the flesh and blood human body that living soul or living person doesn't exist. Genesis 2:7 is not saying that the breath of life(spirit) separately on it's own, not in a flesh and blood human body is a living soul or living person. When discussing human beings, the breath of life(spirit) has to be in a flesh and blood human body for a living soul or living person to exist. That's what death is to humans, we cease to exist as living souls or living persons when that breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body. Whether this non existence as a living soul or living person is a temporary nonexistence or a permanent nonexistence, the True God will judge.

 

[Jack]

What you don't want to believe is what Genesis 2:7 teaches us. God's word doesn't say that God gave human beings souls, it teaches us that human beings are souls. Genesis 2:7 clearly teaches us that God took dust from the ground, formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body, then blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So when that breath of life(spirit) isn't in the flesh and blood human body that living soul or living person doesn't exist. Genesis 2:7 is not saying that the breath of life(spirit) separately on it's own, not in a flesh and blood human body is a living soul or living person. When discussing human beings, the breath of life(spirit) has to be in a flesh and blood human body for a living soul or living person to exist. That's what death is to humans, we cease to exist as living souls or living persons when that breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body. Whether this non existence as a living soul or living person is a temporary nonexistence or a permanent nonexistence, the True God will judge.

Kingdom Hall right?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Kingdom Hall right?

Not kingdom hall, Scripture. Genesis 2:7 is very clear, as I said. You don't want to believe what Genesis 2:7 clearly says and believe something completely opposite of what Genesis 2:7 says, that's your choice, but I'm not going to disbelieve what Genesis 2:7 says.Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach we have souls it teaches we are souls. You want to believe that a person continues living when a human being dies that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence like in Greek mythology, that's your choice but it isn't what scripture teaches us. As I said Genesis 2:7 is very clear in that it teaches us we are souls not that we have souls.

 

[Jack]

Not kingdom hall, Scripture. Genesis 2:7 is very clear, as I said. You don't want to believe what Genesis 2:7 clearly says and believe something completely opposite of what Genesis 2:7 says, that's your choice, but I'm not going to disbelieve what Genesis 2:7 says.Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach we have souls it teaches we are souls. You want to believe that a person continues living when a human being dies that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence like in Greek mythology, that's your choice but it isn't what scripture teaches us. As I said Genesis 2:7 is very clear in that it teaches us we are souls not that we have souls.

Sounds like Kingdom Hall to me.