The answer of hell and its origins

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The Learner

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Nope, nowhere in 1 Peter 3:19 does it say these spirits are souls and neither does it say that Jesus preached to these spirits in Hades (the grave). Since the disobedience of these spirits is linked with the time of Noah, they're the angelic sons of God who left their original dwelling place in the heavens and took up living with women. (Genesis 6:1-4) At 2 Peter 2:4, 5 Peter refers to them as “angels that sinned.” They are spoken of as “spirits in prison” because their punishment included a form of restraint, being forever debarred from their original place among the faithful angels. The words of Jude confirm that only a message of condemnatory judgment could be directed to these fallen angels: “The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place [God] has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6)

God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4)

As these descriptions relate to spirit creatures, it is evident that the “pits of dense darkness” and “eternal bonds” are not literal. These expressions simply convey to us a picture of restraint, a condition of debasement separated from all divine enlightenment.

There is no Scriptural basis for concluding that these disobedient angels are in a place like the mythological Tartarus of Homer’s Iliad, that is, in the lowest prison where Cronus and the other Titan spirits were said to be confined. The apostle Peter did not believe in any such mythological gods. So there is no reason to conclude that his use of the Greek expression ‘throwing into Tartarus’ even hinted at the existence of the mythological place referred to by Homer some nine centuries earlier. In fact, in Greek the expression ‘throwing into Tartarus’ is only one word, a verb, tartaroo. It is also used to mean debasing to the lowest degree.

At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the debased spirit creatures are referred to as “spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” So the Bible makes it plain that after the Flood the “angels that sinned” came under a form of restraint. There is no Biblical indication that they were able to materialize and take up visible activity on earth after the Flood. So it logically follows that the restraint under which they came made it impossible for them to take on flesh again.
1 Peter 3:19
King James Version
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

WE
His spirit went and gave his message to people's spirits who were in prison.
WYC
For which thing he came in Spirit, and also to them that were closed together in prison;
PHILLIPS
If it is the will of God that you should suffer it is really better to suffer unjustly than because you have deserved it. Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And I cannot help pointing out what a perfect illustration this is of the way you have been admitted to the safety of the Christian “ark” by baptism, which means, of course, far more than the mere washing of a dirty body: it means the ability to face God with a clear conscience. For there is in every true baptism the virtue of Christ’s rising from the dead. And he has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.


What poor translation are you reading friend? The spirits are persons.
 

The Learner

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So what, Just because some people in the past said something I agree with doesn't necessarily make it wrong because you or some other imperfect human beings say what they said isn't true. People should not blindly follow anyone, and like I said I know for a fact Jesus wasn't encouraging self-multilation here at Matthew 18:8, 9.
The application to be made at Matthew 18:8, 9 is stated in Colossians 3:5-7: “Deaden, therefore, your body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. In those very things you, too, once walked when you used to live in them.” So, the proper course is, not to mutilate oneself, but to deaden one’s body members toward sin.(1 Corinthians 9:27)
So just as you don't take the cutting off the foot or hand literally or pluck out the eye literally, you don't take the fires of gehenna as being literal.
What about the Watchtower using a Spiritualist to justifly NWT mistranslations? I already posted about him.
 

The Learner

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I would bet that you / KH takes NT salvation literally. Maybe not. Whatever Kingdom Hall doesn't like in the Bible is not literal. Do you know that Luke 16 is even in the NWT? They both died but were very much alive. They did not "cease to exist" as Kingdom Hall twists the Scripture! I'm sure the rich man wishes he wasn't still alive! Perhaps like those whom you have convinced that there is no "everlasting fire" as Jesus warned. How many have you convinced that there is no "everlasting fire"? There will be BLOODY hands on Judgment Day!

NWT Luke 16 “Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in the Grave he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot,
Isaiah 14:1-11
Complete Jewish Bible
14 For Adonai will have compassion on Ya‘akov — he will once again choose Isra’el and resettle them in their own land, where foreigners will join them, attaching themselves to the house of Ya‘akov. 2 Peoples will take and escort them to their homeland, and the house of Isra’el will possess them in the land of Adonai as male and female slaves. They will take their captors captive and rule over their oppressors. 3 Then, when Adonai gives you rest from your suffering and trouble and from the hard service imposed on you, 4 you will take up this taunt-song against the king of Bavel:

“At last the oppressor is stilled,
his arrogance is ended!
5 Adonai has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which furiously struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
angrily beating down nations
with relentless persecution.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet.
They break into song.
8 The cypresses rejoice over you,
with the cedars of the L’vanon —
‘Now that you are laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.’

9 “Sh’ol below is stirred up
to meet you when you come.
It awakens for you the ghosts of the dead
who were leaders on earth;
it makes all the kings of the nations
arise from their thrones.
10 They all greet you with these words:
‘Now you are as weak as we are,
you have become like us!
11 Your pride has been brought down to Sh’ol
with the music of your lyres,
under you a mattress of maggots,
over you a blanket of worms.’
 

The Learner

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Anyone who says that Jesus didn't die for mankind are believing and stating a lie. Jesus did die for mankind. So if anyone says Jesus didn't stop existing as a living person then you're admittng as a person Jesus didn't stop living as a person so you're denying he died. It's those who deny Jesus died for mankind who will not get everlasting life. People have to believe that the True God sent his only begotten Son to the world of mankind, that the only begotten Son died or sacrificed his life for mankind and three days later God resurrected his only begotten son from the dead. Exercising fait in all this is how a person gets everlasting life.
If Jesus was not God then his sacrifiice would only be good for the first person to accept, believe in him.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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1 Peter 3:19
King James Version
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

WE
His spirit went and gave his message to people's spirits who were in prison.
WYC
For which thing he came in Spirit, and also to them that were closed together in prison;
PHILLIPS
If it is the will of God that you should suffer it is really better to suffer unjustly than because you have deserved it. Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And I cannot help pointing out what a perfect illustration this is of the way you have been admitted to the safety of the Christian “ark” by baptism, which means, of course, far more than the mere washing of a dirty body: it means the ability to face God with a clear conscience. For there is in every true baptism the virtue of Christ’s rising from the dead. And he has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.


What poor translation are you reading friend? The spirits are persons.
Yes Angels are spirits so they are persons. I didn't say they were not persons. But Peter wasn't teaching that there was a actual place called Tartarrus. Tartarrus represents a condition not a actual place that literally exists.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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What about the Watchtower using a Spiritualist to justifly NWT mistranslations? I already posted about him.
I let people believe what they want to believe. I found that people don't even believe there own Bible translation, so I'm not concerned what they think of other Bible translations. So you go ahead and post what you want about the watchtower, you don't even believe your own translation.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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If Jesus was not God then his sacrifiice would only be good for the first person to accept, believe in him.
If a person believes that Jesus wasn't God they would be going by what their Bibles are stating about the truth of Jesus Christ. The scriptures have always stated that God sent his only begotten Son to the world of mankind, that it was the only begotten Son of God that died for mankind and that it was the Only True God who resurrected the only begotten Son of God from the dead three days after his death. It's those who exercises faith in these things who will get everlasting life.
 
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Jack

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Yes Angels are spirits so they are persons. I didn't say they were not persons. But Peter wasn't teaching that there was a actual place called Tartarrus. Tartarrus represents a condition not a actual place that literally exists.
I don't think Kingdom Hall will allow Barney to answer questions. Their own NWT says they are WRONG!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I don't think Kingdom Hall will allow Barney to answer questions. Their own NWT says they are WRONG!
We know that when the apostles used the word Tartarus he wasn't teaching that those who worshipped false Gods who believed in a place like Tartarus, that such a place actually literally existed.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures, its used as a prisonlike abased condition into which the disobedient angels of Noah’s day were cast. At 2 Peter 2:4, the use of the verb tartaroo (to “cast into Tartarus”) does not signify that “the angels who sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus (that is, an underground prison and place of darkness for the lesser gods). Rather, it indicates that they were abased by God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Darkness also marks their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels. It is not the same as “the abyss” spoken of at Revelation 20:1-3.
 

The Learner

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Yes Angels are spirits so they are persons. I didn't say they were not persons. But Peter wasn't teaching that there was a actual place called Tartarrus. Tartarrus represents a condition not a actual place that literally exists.
prison means place
 

The Learner

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If a person believes that Jesus wasn't God they would be going by what their Bibles are stating about the truth of Jesus Christ. The scriptures have always stated that God sent his only begotten Son to the world of mankind, that it was the only begotten Son of God that died for mankind and that it was the Only True God who resurrected the only begotten Son of God from the dead three days after his death. It's those who exercises faith in these things who will get everlasting life.
Myself and others have already posted the texts that all three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are God raised Jesus.
 

The Learner

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We know that when the apostles used the word Tartarus he wasn't teaching that those who worshipped false Gods who believed in a place like Tartarus, that such a place actually literally existed.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures, its used as a prisonlike abased condition into which the disobedient angels of Noah’s day were cast. At 2 Peter 2:4, the use of the verb tartaroo (to “cast into Tartarus”) does not signify that “the angels who sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus (that is, an underground prison and place of darkness for the lesser gods). Rather, it indicates that they were abased by God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Darkness also marks their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels. It is not the same as “the abyss” spoken of at Revelation 20:1-3.
Tartarus, the infernal regions of ancient Greek mythology. The name was originally used for the deepest region of the world, the lower of the two parts of the underworld, where the gods locked up their enemies. It gradually came to mean the entire underworld. As such it was the opposite of Elysium, where happy souls lived after death. In some accounts Tartarus was one of the personified elements of the world, along with Gaea (Earth) and others. According to those accounts, Tartarus and Gaea produced the monster Typhon

In ancient Greek mythology, Tartarus was a horrible pit of torment in the afterlife. It was lower than even Hades, the place of the dead. According to the Greeks, Tartarus was populated by ferocious monsters and the worst of criminals.

The Greek word Tartarus appears only once in the entire New Testament. Second Peter 2:4 says, “God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to [Tartarus], putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.” Most English versions translate tartarus as “hell” or “lowest hell.” The word Tartarus can be defined as “the deepest abyss of Hades.”

Another place in Scripture that mentions sinning angels is Genesis 6:1–4 where “the sons of God” took control of human women and their progeny. According to Jude 1:6, some angels “abandoned their proper dwelling” in the heavens. For this crime, God cast them into Tartarus where they are held “in pits of gloom” (AMP) for a later judgment. It seems that Tartarus was what the demons feared in Luke 8:31.

Peter’s mention of Tartarus is in the context of condemning false teachers. Those who secretly introduce heresy into the church will suffer a fate similar to that of the angels who sinned—they will end up in Tartarus. The Lord does not tolerate those who lead His children astray (Matthew 18:6).

NOT the same context, this chapter speaks of humans, the demons.

1 Peter 3

J.B. Phillips New Testament

A word to married Christians​

3 1-6 In the same spirit you married women should adapt yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they do not obey the Word of God they may be won to God without any word being spoken, simply by seeing the pure and reverent behaviour of you, their wives. Your beauty should not be dependent on an elaborate coiffure, or on the wearing of jewellery or fine clothes, but on the inner personality—the unfading loveliness of a calm and gentle spirit, a thing very precious in the eyes of God. This was the secret of the beauty of the holy women of ancient times who trusted in God and were submissive to their husbands. Sara, you will remember, obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. And you have become, as it were, her true descendants today as long as you too live good lives and do not give way to hysterical fears.
7 Similarly, you husbands should try to understand the wives you live with, honouring them as physically weaker yet equally heirs with you of the grace of eternal life. If you don’t do this, you will find it impossible to pray properly.

Be good to each other—and to all men​

8-12 To sum up, you should all be of one mind living like brothers with true love and sympathy for each other, generous and courteous at all times. Never pay back a bad turn with a bad turn or an insult with another insult, but on the contrary pay back with good. For this is your calling—to do good and one day to inherit all the goodness of God. For: ‘He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile: let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil’.

Do good, even if you suffer for it​

13-16 After all, who in the ordinary way is likely to injure you for being enthusiastic for good? And if it should happen that you suffer “for righteousness’ sake”, that is a privilege. You need neither fear their threats nor worry about them; simply concentrate on being completely devoted to Christ in your hearts. Be ready at any time to give a quiet and reverent answer to any man who wants a reason for the hope that you have within you. Make sure that your conscience is perfectly clear, so that if men should speak slanderously of you as rogues they may come to feel ashamed of themselves for libelling your good Christian behaviour.
17-22 If it is the will of God that you should suffer it is really better to suffer unjustly than because you have deserved it. Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And I cannot help pointing out what a perfect illustration this is of the way you have been admitted to the safety of the Christian “ark” by baptism, which means, of course, far more than the mere washing of a dirty body: it means the ability to face God with a clear conscience. For there is in every true baptism the virtue of Christ’s rising from the dead. And he has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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prison means place
Then you're teaching that these false gods the Greeks believed in and that Tartarrus actually and literally existed. But these false gods the Greeks believed in didn't actually literally exist so neither did Tartarrus literally exist.

Peter used the word tartarrus to represent a prisonlike abased condition into which the disobedient angels of Noah’s day were cast. At 2 Peter 2:4, the use of the verb tar·ta·roʹo (to “cast into Tartarus”) does not signify that “the angels who sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus (that is, an underground prison and place of darkness for the lesser gods). Rather, it indicates that they were abased by God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Darkness also marks their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels.