The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[WPM]

They were not believers prior to the Second Coming.

Where does it say that in the text? Your opinion doesn't cut it.

 

[Behold]

Romand 5:9. """Much more then, being now justified by Jesus's shed blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God has not appointed the born again to Wrath"

What is the Tribulation?
Its the DAY of Wrath.
What is Hell and the Lake of fire? Its God's WRATH against sin and unbelief.
John 3:36

See those 2 "Wrath's of God".

No born again believer is appointed to face those, as we wont be in the Grt Trib, and there is no born again believer in Hell.

 

[WPM]

Romand 5:9. """Much more then, being now justified by Jesus's shed blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God has not appointed the born again to Wrath"

What is the Tribulation?
Its the DAY of Wrath.
What is Hell and the Lake of fire? Its God's WRATH against sin and unbelief.
John 3:36

See those 2 "Wrath's of God".

No born again believer is appointed to face those, as we wont be in the Grt Trib, and there is no born again believer in Hell.

2+2=4, not 22.

You really do not get this. You're just relaying classic Pretribulation error. The great tribulation is the persecution of antichrist against the Church. The wrath of God is from God at the end and destroys all the wicked.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Where did Jesus teach that - it is the Jews who are grafted into the vine that repopulate the earth ... with any post-rapture Christians that have survived the Great Tribulation and wrath of God"? What you reference is Romans 11 that speaks about an olive tree. You do not seem to know the difference.

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that the "Millennial Kingdom is ... a covenant with Israel (the bloodline from the tribes)? Why do you keep forcing your beliefs on the sacred text?

That is an early post. What's wrong, you can't respond to post #113 so you disregard it and pull up an older post. A typical tactic used by those who are in denial. Bypass, create a diversion ... cowardly.
Jesus is the Word. Revelation is the unvealing of Christ. You distort that, and pretend it all means something else.
I'll answer this older post if you respond to #113.
Question: Of the list of words taken from Revelation 20 that I gave _ in post #113 _ tell us all what they symbolically mean?

 

[WPM]

That is an early post. What's wrong, you can't respond to post #113 so you disregard it and pull up an older post. A typical tactic used by those who are in denial. Bypass, create a diversion ... cowardly.
Jesus is the Word. Revelation is the unvealing of Christ. You distort that, and pretend it all means something else.
I'll answer this older post if you respond to #113.
Question: Of the list of words taken from Revelation 20 that I gave _ in post #113 _ tell us all what they symbolically mean?

You are so petty and infantile. You are oozing bitterness and frustration. Grow up. I disagree with your conclusions in #113. It is just Premillennialist dogma. Can I remind you? The subject of this thread is the early church fathers. You are totally ducking around the issues.

 

[covenantee]

Exactly.

The unbelievers that are alive at the return of Jesus mistreat the brethren of Jesus(Jews) per Ez 38.

Mark 3
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

No mention of Jews.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You seem to be misrepresenting the early Chiliasts, just because they do not agree with you. The fact is, they had a deeper revelation of Old and New Testament truth than most believers today. They had a broad, thorough and compelling understanding of many biblical truths. They were forced to know their beliefs because of the stiff opposition they endured from all sides. It is clear that the early Chiliasts had a clearer view of eschatological truth than most modern Premils.

Well your conclusions are interesting. Seeing how the gentile churches most likely did not have but at best but a few OT scrolls. But they have deep knowledge of the OT!! amazing. After the first generation of Jewish believers died off, there was little contact with Jews as the supermajority of the church was gentile! People di dnot have bibles in their homes. and most churches did not have many of the epistles and gospels in circulation. It would take months and years to recopy the manuscripts and then further months and years to get a copy into another region, then repeat teh months and years etc.

Well now you are just vomiting opinion and fact.

Did you interview these early fathers to know the depths of their eschatology or are you spitballing?

And as for modern views? Well for the average pew sitter I would agree. Many are poor student5s of the word and know more about Jenkins and Le Hayes trib series than serious escatological studies.

But having studied escatology diligently for over 45 years now, I would say a have a fair grasp! I have taught it for decades and studied many church fathers opinions both ancinet and modern. But I take them with the grain of scripture salt.

And for the record, I agree with some, and disagree with others either in whole or in part. They are not the inspired writers of SCripture. They were commentators.

I bet you disagree with many premil scholars. because they disagree with you! So that is just a silly argument. I can bring one author who is probably the 20th and 21st centuries greatest bible student and he shatters amillenialism and covenant theology which is the undergirding of amillenial human reasoning.

He is a born again Jew. the son of a rebbe who himself was studying to be a rebbe. He speaks and writes and read both in Hebrew and Koine Greek and knows both Jewish history and culture as well as the early church in the fiorst 2 centuries.

Once again Eschatology was very low on the totem pole. they were defending agains tGreek philosophy, Roman philosophy, ten waves of intense persecution. internal fighting like in Corinthians and doctrinal issues like the great Arian heresy which was carried on for a season by origen.

The early chruch fathers are precious and dear saints, but they had their own doctrinal issues.

 

[WPM]

Well your conclusions are interesting. Seeing how the gentile churches most likely did not have but at best but a few OT scrolls. But they have deep knowledge of the OT!! amazing. After the first generation of Jewish believers died off, there was little contact with Jews as the supermajority of the church was gentile! People di dnot have bibles in their homes. and most churches did not have many of the epistles and gospels in circulation. It would take months and years to recopy the manuscripts and then further months and years to get a copy into another region, then repeat teh months and years etc.

Well now you are just vomiting opinion and fact.

Did you interview these early fathers to know the depths of their eschatology or are you spitballing?

And as for modern views? Well for the average pew sitter I would agree. Many are poor student5s of the word and know more about Jenkins and Le Hayes trib series than serious escatological studies.

But having studied escatology diligently for over 45 years now, I would say a have a fair grasp! I have taught it for decades and studied many church fathers opinions both ancinet and modern. But I take them with the grain of scripture salt.

And for the record, I agree with some, and disagree with others either in whole or in part. They are not the inspired writers of SCripture. They were commentators.

I bet you disagree with many premil scholars. because they disagree with you! So that is just a silly argument. I can bring one author who is probably the 20th and 21st centuries greatest bible student and he shatters amillenialism and covenant theology which is the undergirding of amillenial human reasoning.

He is a born again Jew. the son of a rebbe who himself was studying to be a rebbe. He speaks and writes and read both in Hebrew and Koine Greek and knows both Jewish history and culture as well as the early church in the fiorst 2 centuries.

Once again Eschatology was very low on the totem pole. they were defending agains tGreek philosophy, Roman philosophy, ten waves of intense persecution. internal fighting like in Corinthians and doctrinal issues like the great Arian heresy which was carried on for a season by origen.

The early chruch fathers are precious and dear saints, but they had their own doctrinal issues.

Please address the subject above if you are interested in engaging on this subject.

 

[covenantee]

I can bring one author who is probably the 20th and 21st centuries greatest bible student and he shatters amillenialism and covenant theology which is the undergirding of amillenial human reasoning.

We can bring 17 centuries of historical defenders of the true faith who demolish any and all purveyors of modernist racialist futurist premillennialitis.

Be our guest.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Please address the subject above if you are interested in engaging on this subject.

I did you just don't like my answer.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You are so petty and infantile. You are oozing bitterness and frustration. Grow up. I disagree with your conclusions in #113. It is just Premillennialist dogma. Can I remind you? The subject of this thread is the early church fathers. You are totally ducking around the issues.

You are avoiding showing us all what those words symbolically mean to you.
These are the key words of Revelation 20.
Amillennialism says this chapter is symbolic ... you even said modt of Revelation was. Why don't you show us what it all really means? I'll remove what my definitions are.

Lets have your symbolic meanings of the key words in Rev. 20?

* Blessed and holy
* first resurrection
* priests
* reign with Him
* Satan
* prison
* nations
* Gog and Magog
* war
* like the sand of the seashore
* saints
* the beloved city
* fire came down from heaven
* lake of fire and brimstone
*the beast
* false prophet
* tormented day and night
forever
* great white throne
*Him
* the book of life
* dead judged
* the sea
*Death
* Hades
* the lake of fire
* the second death

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romand 5:9. """Much more then, being now justified by Jesus's shed blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God has not appointed the born again to Wrath"

What is the Tribulation?
Its the DAY of Wrath.
What is Hell and the Lake of fire? Its God's WRATH against sin and unbelief.
John 3:36

See those 2 "Wrath's of God".

No born again believer is appointed to face those, as we wont be in the Grt Trib, and there is no born again believer in Hell.

What is the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9? That can be seen from what Paul said earlier in the chapter.

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The wrath that Paul was talking about has to do with the sudden and unexpected mass destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord from which "they will not escape". So, he was not talking about the great tribulation as you believe, he was talking about the final wrath of God that will come on the day of the Lord.

Why is it that "they will not escape" on the day of the Lord (with "they" being unbelievers)?

Peter made it clear as to why they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Obviously, it would be impossible to escape fire coming down on the entire earth. So, this is the wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to. It has nothing to do with not being appointed to be on the earth during a time of great tribulation, but rather has to do with the day Christ returns and sends down His final wrath upon the entire earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please address the subject above if you are interested in engaging on this subject.

He has clearly not done any research whatsoever on the subject of this thread, so it is impossible for him to engage the subject. So, what does he do instead? He tries to derail the thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But having studied escatology diligently for over 45 years now, I would say a have a fair grasp!

Of what? I'm pretty sure you are wrong about almost everything (if not everything) when it comes to eschatology.

I have taught it for decades and studied many church fathers opinions both ancinet and modern. But I take them with the grain of scripture salt.

That's too bad that you've taught false doctrine for that long.

I can bring one author who is probably the 20th and 21st centuries greatest bible student and he shatters amillenialism and covenant theology which is the undergirding of amillenial human reasoning.

LOL. Please. I don't know who you're talking about, but he has nothing on Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Jude and James who all taught amillennialism.

 

[WPM]

You are avoiding showing us all what those words symbolically mean to you.
These are the key words of Revelation 20.
Amillennialism says this chapter is symbolic ... you even said modt of Revelation was. Why don't you show us what it all really means? I'll remove what my definitions are.

Lets have your symbolic meanings of the key words in Rev. 20?

* Blessed and holy
* first resurrection
* priests
* reign with Him
* Satan
* prison
* nations
* Gog and Magog
* war
* like the sand of the seashore
* saints
* the beloved city
* fire came down from heaven
* lake of fire and brimstone
*the beast
* false prophet
* tormented day and night
forever
* great white throne
*Him
* the book of life
* dead judged
* the sea
*Death
* Hades
* the lake of fire
* the second death

I think the whole Premillennial argument depends upon believing that Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19 in fulfilment, rather than commencing another parallel or camera-view.

· The angel is symbolic of Christ.
· The key is symbolic of authority.
· The chain is symbolic of restrainment.
· The dragon / serpent is symbolic of the Devil.
· The binding is symbolic the condition of restraint
· The abyss is symbolic of that place of restraint.
· The 1,000 years is symbolic of ‘a long period of time’.
· Gog and Magog is a symbol of the wicked.
· The camp of the saints is symbolic of the Church.

 

[Truther]

We teach it because itis biblical and not derived from believers 50-200 years removed from the original writings. Eschatological passages were hidden until we grew near then end as God told Daniel.

Millenialists believe in the literal translation of the bible and we see a first resurrection before the 1,000 years start and a second resurrection after teh 1000 years are over.

We see in the bible God fulfilling HIS unconditional promises to Israel and giving them their covenanted Kingdom. Revelation only tells us how long that kingdom lasts before eternity sets in.

If you look at the writings of the early church fathers, eschatology was very low priority in the order of subjects. Why? Because the second, third and fourth centuries were very hard on the church as more and more gentiles were being added and philosophies crept in to pollute the pure doctrines of Scripture.

YOu also need to remember that the early church had not easy access to the OT( not even synagogues had the entire OT scrolls). So much information about teh end times and the kingdom was unknown to many church scholars who were gentiles.

The fact is, the Apostles were told by Jesus that "it is not for you to know" regarding the fulfilling of His reign over future Israel per Acts 1.

The preterist denies this statement altogether, saying that they ended up knowing it for themselves.

Preterists teach God lied to the fathers AND the disciples.

 

[Truther]

Quote it and show the parallel, if you can.

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...


18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;


This is right before Jesus returns.

 

[WPM]

We can bring 17 centuries of historical defenders of the true faith who demolish any and all purveyors of modernist racialist futurist premillennialitis.

Be our guest.

Why not 20 centuries?

 

[WPM]

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...


18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;


This is right before Jesus returns.

That is not a parallel. I suspect you know that by the time it took you to manufacture this.

 

[Truther]

Mark 3
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

No mention of Jews.

The Jews are not his brethren?

He was not from one of the 12 tribes?