The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil
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Timtofly
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Lol. You are stirring the pot. You obviously do not even understand what ad hominem is. Me exposing your lack of hermeneutics or hard evidence is not ad hominem.
If you have an answer give it, if not admit it or stop derailing.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you have no defined facts, then what is your point about the Millennium? You are the one describing the Millennium in your own miserable opinion. Since you deny the Millennium, all you can do is throw your own carnal dirt on the Holy set apart Day of the Lord.
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
That is the reason for the Day of the Lord. Yet Jesus has to clean up all the mess first. That is what the tribulation is for.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Of course. You have nothing to support your thesis. That is why you must run. This is the Premil MO.
Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France) (AD 150)
Irenaeus is in rock-solid agreement with the general assessment of Justin, which is not surprising, since they both held similar eschatological beliefs and ministered around the same era in history. The earliest Chiliast writers all tended to be on the same page on most of their views. In keeping with his fellow early Millennialists, Irenaeus emphasized the current realized eschatology of the messianic kingdom. This was a standard fundamental and emphasized position of that position.
Irenaeus highlights the Lordship of Christ exercising all power over all the universe and all mankind – friend or foe. To him, Jesus is a current sovereign king, who rules over all things. He also taught:
According to Irenaeus, Christ currently exercises “dominion … over all creation.” Here He employs the Old Testament passage in Psalm 110:1 to impress His point. What is more, His enemies have been made subject onto him right now through His victorious earthly ministry. This early writer confirms that our Lord has already defeated all His enemies. He demonstrates the fact that Christ reigns in majesty and glory at the right hand of majesty today over His adversaries. He is king over the kings and kingdoms of the earth. He is Lord and reigns over all principalities and powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. He exercises sovereign kingly power over all His enemies until He makes them His footstool. There is nothing that is not under his feet. Jesus Christ is presented to be Lord! He is in control of all things and rules over all things.
Everything about the Old Testament Messianic prophecies is shown by these early Millennialists to be current and heavenly. They are exhibited repeatedly to be occurring now in this intra-Advent period (also known as the “last days”). This cuts across the Premillennialist fixation with postponing Christ’s reign upon the throne of David to some supposed future earthly millennial kingdom after the second coming.
Irenaeus repeats his position in Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 10:5:
There is no ambiguity or doubt from this early writer when the fulfillment of Christ’s Messianic reign relates to. This truth is routinely emphasized in Chiliast writings. Christ sitting at the right hand of majesty is deemed here to be equivalent to Him reigning over His enemies.
He further adds:
Irenaeus demonstrates that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind during the intra-Advent period. He holds the key or authority of David. He is indeed Israel’s king. The Old Testament prediction of Christ taking David’s throne is being fulfilled from the throne room of heaven today. Jesus is reigning in power and glory. To this ancient writer, sitting upon the throne of David means Jesus has dominion over all things. He stresses how Jesus Christ holds all power (without qualification). He is a sovereign monarch. Jesus either causes or permits – as He is God and He is sovereign. He shows how the powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David in Revelation 3:7 proves that this is referring to His current kingly authority.
Irenaeus joins Justin in applying the parallel messianic predictions of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 to the time period in between the Lord’s First Advent and His Second Advent. He shows how this triggered the great Gospel expanse. This is carefully connected by the ancient writer
Like Justin, Irenaeus applies the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 2 to the current intra-advent period. He saw the peace that was promised as a spiritual peace that emanates from one encountering Jesus Christ. He saw the great commission as running in tandem with Christ’s Messianic reign in heaven. This was seen to relate to not just Israel but the people of God throughout the nations. This was not a racial expectation relating to ethnic Israel as many modern Premillennialists expect in the future. Once again, the sovereign rule is carefully linked to the ingathering of the nations in this text. The Gentiles that are coming to Christ are shown to be the inheritance of the Lord.
Irenaeus is in rock-solid agreement with the general assessment of Justin, which is not surprising, since they both held similar eschatological beliefs and ministered around the same era in history. The earliest Chiliast writers all tended to be on the same page on most of their views. In keeping with his fellow early Millennialists, Irenaeus emphasized the current realized eschatology of the messianic kingdom. This was a standard fundamental and emphasized position of that position.
[T]he angel said, when bringing good tidings to Mary: “He shall he great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto Him the throne of His father David” acknowledging that He who is the Son of the Highest, the same is Himself also the Son of David. And David, knowing by the Spirit the dispensation of the advent of this Person, by which He is supreme over all the living and dead, confessed Him as Lord, sitting on the right hand of the Most High Father (Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 16:3).
Irenaeus highlights the Lordship of Christ exercising all power over all the universe and all mankind – friend or foe. To him, Jesus is a current sovereign king, who rules over all things. He also taught:
God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord … And this [text following] does declare the same truth: Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Your kingdom is a right sceptre. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Your God, has anointed You (Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 6)
According to Irenaeus, Christ currently exercises “dominion … over all creation.” Here He employs the Old Testament passage in Psalm 110:1 to impress His point. What is more, His enemies have been made subject onto him right now through His victorious earthly ministry. This early writer confirms that our Lord has already defeated all His enemies. He demonstrates the fact that Christ reigns in majesty and glory at the right hand of majesty today over His adversaries. He is king over the kings and kingdoms of the earth. He is Lord and reigns over all principalities and powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. He exercises sovereign kingly power over all His enemies until He makes them His footstool. There is nothing that is not under his feet. Jesus Christ is presented to be Lord! He is in control of all things and rules over all things.
Everything about the Old Testament Messianic prophecies is shown by these early Millennialists to be current and heavenly. They are exhibited repeatedly to be occurring now in this intra-Advent period (also known as the “last days”). This cuts across the Premillennialist fixation with postponing Christ’s reign upon the throne of David to some supposed future earthly millennial kingdom after the second coming.
Irenaeus repeats his position in Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 10:5:
[T]owards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God; confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your foes Your footstool.
There is no ambiguity or doubt from this early writer when the fulfillment of Christ’s Messianic reign relates to. This truth is routinely emphasized in Chiliast writings. Christ sitting at the right hand of majesty is deemed here to be equivalent to Him reigning over His enemies.
It is thus indicated that, after His passion and ascension, God shall cast down under His feet all who were opposed to Him, and He shall be exalted above all, and there shall be no one who can be justified or compared to Him (Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter XXXIII:13).
He further adds:
[D]oes the Lord also say: “All things are delivered to Me by My Father;” manifestly by Him who made all things; for He did not deliver to Him the things of another, but His own. But in all things [it is implied that] nothing has been kept back [from Him], and for this reason the same person is the Judge of the living and the dead; “having the key of David: He shall open, and no man shall shut: He shall shut, and no man shall open” … receiving power over all things from the same God who made all things by the Word … that even as the Word of God had the sovereignty in the heavens, so also might He have the sovereignty in earth … that He might have the pre-eminence over those things which are under the earth … and that all things, as I have already said, might behold their King (Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 20:2).
Irenaeus demonstrates that Christ is exercising His Davidic kingship over mankind during the intra-Advent period. He holds the key or authority of David. He is indeed Israel’s king. The Old Testament prediction of Christ taking David’s throne is being fulfilled from the throne room of heaven today. Jesus is reigning in power and glory. To this ancient writer, sitting upon the throne of David means Jesus has dominion over all things. He stresses how Jesus Christ holds all power (without qualification). He is a sovereign monarch. Jesus either causes or permits – as He is God and He is sovereign. He shows how the powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David in Revelation 3:7 proves that this is referring to His current kingly authority.
Irenaeus joins Justin in applying the parallel messianic predictions of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 to the time period in between the Lord’s First Advent and His Second Advent. He shows how this triggered the great Gospel expanse. This is carefully connected by the ancient writer
They used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight. If therefore another law and word, going forth from Jerusalem, brought in such a [reign of] peace among the Gentiles which received it (the word), and convinced, through them, many a nation of its folly, then [only] it appears that the prophets spoke of some other person. But if the law of liberty, that is, the word of God, preached by the apostles (who went forth from Jerusalem) throughout all the earth, caused such a change in the state of things, that these [nations] did form the swords and war-lances into ploughshares, and changed them into pruning-hooks for reaping the grain, [that is], into instruments used for peaceful purposes, and that they are now unaccustomed to fighting (Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 34:4).
Like Justin, Irenaeus applies the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 2 to the current intra-advent period. He saw the peace that was promised as a spiritual peace that emanates from one encountering Jesus Christ. He saw the great commission as running in tandem with Christ’s Messianic reign in heaven. This was seen to relate to not just Israel but the people of God throughout the nations. This was not a racial expectation relating to ethnic Israel as many modern Premillennialists expect in the future. Once again, the sovereign rule is carefully linked to the ingathering of the nations in this text. The Gentiles that are coming to Christ are shown to be the inheritance of the Lord.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Like I said above: how about discussing the Op, instead of all these are distractions.
The six thousand years of history theory is not in the Bible. It has come from your teachers.
Then present it here and defend it, if you are confident it can stand scrutiny.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You evidently read my thread on the Millennial Kingdom on August 16, 2022 because in the 3rd post by Econoclast, you put up a "like" to his post. Marty Fox got involved, Mark's, Curtis and others, but you remained silent on the subject. Had your chance - then chickened out. Not even a "Buk, buk,, bukaa" or "cockadoodle doo" from you!
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I am not chasing every thread on this forum. I do not have the time. If you are confident with what you believe on this matter then present it. If not, do not. You obviously are not.
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