The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

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Ronald David Bruno

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I am not chasing every thread on this forum. I do not have the time. If you are confident with what you believe on this matter then present it. If not, do not. You obviously are not.
I did. We don't copy our threads and paste them all over the forum, we just share it this way:
The Millennial Kingdom

There are forum rules against just redistributing the same threads/topics all over the place.
Just curious, are you a Democrat? You remind me of a typical Democrat/ liberal who avoids the issues, who does not really want to debate them, avoids them and just wants to put out their own junk. Like the main stream media too. Biden and Harris avoid the problems at the border, inflation, recession and are in denial as if these problems don't exist. They avoid debates, the issues and resort to attacking their opponents with fabricated lies. Democrats are destroying the country. ARE YOU ONE?
Or will not be transparent? Come on, let's hear a cookadoodle doo.. That would explain the wall/gulf between our views. It is an alternate reality, where up is down, right is wrong, good is evil. Isaiah warned us about these times, prior to the Great Tribulation.
 

WPM

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I did. We don't copy our threads and paste them all over the forum, we just share it this way:
The Millennial Kingdom

There are forum rules against just redistributing the same threads/topics all over the place.
Just curious, are you a Democrat? You remind me of a typical Democrat/ liberal who avoids the issues, who does not really want to debate them, avoids them and just wants to put out their own junk. Like the main stream media too. Biden and Harris avoid the problems at the border, inflation, recession and are in denial as if these problems don't exist. They avoid debates, the issues and resort to attacking their opponents with fabricated lies. Democrats are destroying the country. ARE YOU ONE?
Or will not be transparent? Come on, let's hear a cookadoodle doo.. That would explain the wall/gulf between our views. It is an alternate reality, where up is down, right is wrong, good is evil. Isaiah warned us about these times, prior to the Great Tribulation.

All your false charges, chides, avoidance, ad hominem and name-calling expose how bereft you are of actual biblical evidence, how unable you are to rebut strong Scripture, how bitter you are against Amils and how frustrated you have become. Rather than fighting Scripture, it is time to yield to it. You will then find that round pegs go into round holes, not square ones.
 
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covenantee

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I did. We don't copy our threads and paste them all over the forum, we just share it this way:
The Millennial Kingdom

There are forum rules against just redistributing the same threads/topics all over the place.
Just curious, are you a Democrat? You remind me of a typical Democrat/ liberal who avoids the issues, who does not really want to debate them, avoids them and just wants to put out their own junk. Like the main stream media too. Biden and Harris avoid the problems at the border, inflation, recession and are in denial as if these problems don't exist. They avoid debates, the issues and resort to attacking their opponents with fabricated lies. Democrats are destroying the country. ARE YOU ONE?
Or will not be transparent? Come on, let's hear a cookadoodle doo.. That would explain the wall/gulf between our views. It is an alternate reality, where up is down, right is wrong, good is evil. Isaiah warned us about these times, prior to the Great Tribulation.
This is a Christian forum, not a political forum.

Are you aware of that?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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All your false charges, chides, avoidance, ad hominem and name-calling expose how bereft you are of actual biblical evidence, how unable you are to rebut strong Scripture, how bitter you are against Amils and how frustrated you have become. Rather than fighting Scripture, it is time to yield to it. You will then find that round pegs go into round holes, not square ones.
Lol ... getting under your skin? I asked if you were a liberal Democrat, because I come
up against the same kind of wall with them. You did not deny it.
You failed to discern all the scriptures I presented, avoided the study I shared ... talk about avoidance. You need ti ask yourself I'm "I born again? Do I know what that means?
The Holy Spirit guides us and reveals to us TRUTH. If you don't have the Spirit, you will at best have a siperficual understanding of a cripture and be led astray by false doctines, which Amillennialism is. Your thread is prolix and without substance. I'm not frustrated at all, peaceful and calm ... bored actually with your dribble and wondering if I accidently opened up a window into the Twilight Zone and have been communicating with someone on the other side of the universe. You are a liberal aren't ya? It just makes sense.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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This is a Christian forum, not a political forum.

Are you aware of that?
Yes, just curious though. It's a conundrum, this division that the world is experiencing and I see dysfunctional parallels in all areas in life, religion and politics. Good vs. Evil, Right vs. Left, etc. I see a communicational disconnect with Non-Trinitarians, Amillennialist as I do with Democrats. This division and corruption is due to our spirituality.
 

WPM

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Lol ... getting under your skin? I asked if you were a liberal Democrat, because I come
up against the same kind of wall with them. You did not deny it.
You failed to discern all the scriptures I presented, avoided the study I shared ... talk about avoidance. You need ti ask yourself I'm "I born again? Do I know what that means?
The Holy Spirit guides us and reveals to us TRUTH. If you don't have the Spirit, you will at best have a siperficual understanding of a cripture and be led astray by false doctines, which Amillennialism is. Your thread is prolix and without substance. I'm not frustrated at all, peaceful and calm ... bored actually with your dribble and wondering if I accidently opened up a window into the Twilight Zone and have been communicating with someone on the other side of the universe. You are a liberal aren't ya? It just makes sense.

Yea, right! You come across as a very peaceful and gracious person, not. Why are online Premils so angry and full of ad hominem? It is clearly frustration at not having any answers. Your approach only serves to expose your position. It enhances Amil.
 

WPM

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Yes, just curious though. It's a conundrum, this division that the world is experiencing and I see dysfunctional parallels in all areas in life, religion and politics. Good vs. Evil, Right vs. Left, etc. I see a communicational disconnect with Non-Trinitarians, Amillennialist as I do with Democrats. This division and corruption is due to our spirituality.

It is you and your fellow Premils that have no biblical support your your faulty opinion of Rev 20. You duck around the issues constantly. You have zero corroboration. You have to twist the sacred text, and you know it. You have one string to your guitar. It is boring and monotonous: "what saith Rev 20!"
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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It is you and fellow Premils that have no biblical support your your faulty opinion on Rev 20. You duck around the issues constantly. You have zero corroboration. You have to twist the sacred text, and you know it. You have one string to your guitar. It is boring and monotonous: "what saith Rev 20!"
REVELATION 20 IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. THERE IS NO SYMBOLISM IN THERE!
Your view is wrong. Most of Revelation should be as well. We receive a blessing from it. I feel blessed. Don't see how you can turn it into some abstract symbolic message or think most of it happened and feel blessed by that.
 

WPM

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REVELATION 20 IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. THERE IS NO SYMBOLISM IN THERE!
Your view is wrong. Most of Revelation should be as well. We receive a blessing from it. I feel blessed. Don't see how you can turn it into some abstract symbolic message or think most of it happened and feel blessed by that.

Not true. The opposite is the truth. Revelation is the most symbolic and figurative book in the Bible. Premils habitually spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual.

It is a symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture. What is more: you have zero corroboration to support a literal interpretation of this metaphoric portrayal.

Is the key mentioned in Rev 20:1 a metal door key?

No.

Is the chain mentioned in Rev 20:1 an iron chain?

No.

Is the dragon in Rev 20:2 a literal physical dragon?

No.

Is the serpent in Rev 20:2 a literal physical serpent?

No.

Is the 1,000 yrs a literal 1,000 yr period?

No.

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!
 

WPM

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No, I said the goats are probably the unbelievers that attacked and assisted the attack on the Jews at Ez 38. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

With this type of hermeneutics you could make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.
 
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Marty fox

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Not true. The opposite is the truth. Revelation is the most symbolic and figurative book in the Bible. Premils habitually spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual.

It is a symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture. What is more: you have zero corroboration to support a literal interpretation of this metaphoric portrayal.

Is the key mentioned in Rev 20:1 a metal door key?

No.

Is the chain mentioned in Rev 20:1 an iron chain?

No.

Is the dragon in Rev 20:2 a literal physical dragon?

No.

Is the serpent in Rev 20:2 a literal physical serpent?

No.

Is the 1,000 yrs a literal 1,000 yr period?

No.

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!

Fantastic descriptions in this post.

Now let’s take the futurist literal interpretation of the verse below and see if it’s even possible.

Revelation 20:3
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The above verse proves that a literal interpretation is impossible how can there be a literal bottomless pit? Why wouldn’t it just say he was cast into a pit?
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Not true. The opposite is the truth. Revelation is the most symbolic and figurative book in the Bible. Premils habitually spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual.

It is a symbolic passage in the most figurative setting in Scripture. What is more: you have zero corroboration to support a literal interpretation of this metaphoric portrayal.

Is the key mentioned in Rev 20:1 a metal door key?

No.

Is the chain mentioned in Rev 20:1 an iron chain?

No.

Is the dragon in Rev 20:2 a literal physical dragon?

No.

Is the serpent in Rev 20:2 a literal physical serpent?

No.

Is the 1,000 yrs a literal 1,000 yr period?

No.

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!
Okay, some symbolism. But a key is a spiritual key to open a spiritual lock so thisis literal. Where did it say metal key? And where did you get Iron chain? Made that up too. And Satan has many names, serpent is one. Lucifer was beautiful, but then then Gid changed him to look like a serpent/dragon. If we saw him, the creature would be quite scary, not beautiful as he once was. So yes, he has a literal appearance of a serpent/ dragon.
As for prisoners in Hades having ability to do anything but suffer torment, no. It is not like an earthly prison.
Fyi, here is a list of words that are to be taken literally in Revelation 20:
* the dead (souls who have passed away)
* the thousand years
* Blessed and holy
* first resurrection
* priests
* reign with Him
* Satan (devil, dragon, sepent ... has many names)
* prison (Tarturus, Abyss, Pit)
nations
* Gog and Magog - (name of a fallen angel prince/place)
* war
* like the sand of the seashore (Opps, found one, symbolism here = large number)
* saints
* the beloved city (Jerusalem)
* fire came down from heaven
* lake of fire and brimstone (hell)
*the beast (another name for Satan)
* false prophet ( Antichrist)
* tormented day and night
forever (for ages)
* great white throne
*Him
* the book of life
* dead judged
* the sea (oops, more symbolism meaning all the billions of souls)
*Death (destruction, end of life)
* Hades (a place of darkness wherethe dead souls are imprisoned awaiting final judgment, the underworld)
* the lake of fire (hell)
* the second death (the end of existence)
 

Truther

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With this type of hermeneutics you could make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.
It is a fact that the goats are those that mistreated the brethren of Jesus.
 

WPM

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It is a fact that the goats are those that mistreated the brethren of Jesus.

That is not what you said. You said:

"the goats are probably the unbelievers that attacked and assisted the attack on the Jews at Ez 38."
 

Truther

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That is not what you said. You said:

"the goats are probably the unbelievers that attacked and assisted the attack on the Jews at Ez 38."
Exactly.

The unbelievers that are alive at the return of Jesus mistreat the brethren of Jesus(Jews) per Ez 38.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It is particularly challenging at the best of times trying to comprehend the various vicissitudes of the early Church teachings. Most of that is because we try to examine their theology through the lens of our modern theological norms. What adds to the complexity and perplexity is the fact that these ancient writings can be quite ambiguous, inconsistent and illogical at times. That is why the overall subject requires much deep, diligent and laborious study expended upon it in order to put all the multifaceted theological dots together accurately. It is only then that we can properly and precisely discern the ancient landscape, see a definite pattern and establish where these ancient writers were coming from. What may surprise many, as they survey the early religious map, is that there was a remarkable commonality of thinking across the eschatological spectrum in regard to their expectation of the nature of the world to come. In fact, whatever angle you look at it from, the prevailing beliefs of the early Chiliasts and early Amillennialists were similar on many core issues.

Both main positions believed that:

· Sin and sinners will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Mortals and mortality will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Satan and his demons will be destroyed at the second coming.

The future millennium the early Chiliasts anticipated was a perfect unspoiled arrangement devoid of the awful results of the Fall. This is altogether different to that which is advocated by modern-day Premillennialists, who see all the bondage of corruption continuing after Jesus comes in all His majestic glory. Sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, and Satan and his minions can all be found in the Premillennialist age to come. In fact, these increase gradually over the course of their millennium to the degree that Satan is able to mobilize a gargantuan army of followers to surround Christ and the saints before the great white throne.

So, if early Chiliast theology was in fact as we describe it (and it was), when then did they believe Jesus would reign over His enemies? After all, modern-day Premillennialists across-the-board teach that that occurs in their future millennium.

The ancient Patriarchs on all sides taught that Christ was currently reigning over His enemies in this existing age. They held that there was nothing that was not under His sovereign power. They saw that rule coming to an end at the return of Christ (which they understood as “the consummation”), when all of His enemies would be finally and eternally destroyed. This is another evidence of the similarity between them and early Amillennialists.

The early Chiliasts anticipation was completely different to that which modern-day Premils hold today. Early Chiliasts envisioned a future millennial age that would be devoid of the wicked, corruption and sin. We have many explicit statements from them that describe an all-consummating return of Christ. Ironically, many of the Scriptures that modern Premils present to justify the bondage of corruption continuing on the future earth are used by ancient Chiliasts to relate to the kingly reign of Christ in our age and the ongoing great commission. We have statement after statement that show a victorious Christ exercising supreme sovereign authority – both in heaven and on earth – ever since His coronation, after defeating every enemy of man and God. Christ is king. He rules over both creation and His new creation. Dr. Stephen Seamands submits: “The early Christians believed that when Jesus ascended into heaven he had been installed and exalted as King, reigning as Lord of all.”

As we analyze the evidence, we see many passages that are traditionally used by Premillennialists today to support their doctrine, and then contrast these with how the ancients viewed them, we see a very different mind-set and an alternative application to what is widely accepted within Millennialist circles. Messianic passages like Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 2, Micah 4 and Isaiah 66 that most commentators agree relate to the kingly reign of the anointed One during the Messianic period are applied to the here-and-now rather than a millennial period after the second coming. This is not insignificant.

The ancient Chiliasts taught a realized theology. They saw the First Advent as the defeat of Satan and his minions. They taught that Christ vanquished every opponent of righteousness through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. These early writers recognized, that regardless of the exploits of Israel’s ancient leaders (prophets, priests, kings, and judges,), they were imperfect and simply preparatory to the coming perfect prophet, priest, king, and judge who was the eternal personification of peace. They believed and taught that the Messiah brought peace to His subjects after His great conquest. They equated the peace described in Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 with that which believers experience when they encounter Christ during the intra-Advent period.

They believed that this supernatural peace comes through the success of the Gospel going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. The evidence of this was said to be seen in the Gentiles turning to Christ in significant numbers. Like modern Amillennialists and Postmillennialists, they had a very positive estimation of the accomplishments of the great commission upon the Gentile inhabitants of the globe. That was because they were seeing the fruit of the Gospel expanse to village after village, town after town, city after city, and nation after nation, with their own eyes.

Early Church Chiliast writers viewed this current age as the glorious Messianic reign of Christ over His enemies. This was the triumphant result of His earthly labors. They were consistent in connecting the reign of Christ upon His heavenly throne over the His enemies (since His coronation) with the going forth of the Gospel to the nations through the great commission. One is seen to facilitate the other. These early Millennialists believed that Christ’s enemies were now under completely subjection to His will. This in turn facilitated the free flow of the Gospel out to the nations. In their writings, there is absolutely no doubt about the starting point, and finishing point, of Christ’s Messianic reign. It began at the First Advent and ends at the Second Advent.

We teach it because itis biblical and not derived from believers 50-200 years removed from the original writings. Eschatological passages were hidden until we grew near then end as God told Daniel.

Millenialists believe in the literal translation of the bible and we see a first resurrection before the 1,000 years start and a second resurrection after teh 1000 years are over.

We see in the bible God fulfilling HIS unconditional promises to Israel and giving them their covenanted Kingdom. Revelation only tells us how long that kingdom lasts before eternity sets in.

If you look at the writings of the early church fathers, eschatology was very low priority in the order of subjects. Why? Because the second, third and fourth centuries were very hard on the church as more and more gentiles were being added and philosophies crept in to pollute the pure doctrines of Scripture.

YOu also need to remember that the early church had not easy access to the OT( not even synagogues had the entire OT scrolls). So much information about teh end times and the kingdom was unknown to many church scholars who were gentiles.
 
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WPM

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If Rev. 20 was the only reference in the entire Bible of a Millennial Kingdom, I would believe it literally; bit there are many relative scriptures which I presented that you are in denial about. You take most of Revelation and distort it into some symbolic allegory. You read it and I suppose drift off into some abstract realm that you probably got from guys like Hank Hanagraff. Most of Revelation is to be taken literally. FURTHERMORE THE MISTAKE YOUR ILK KEEPS MAKING IS whatever little you take literally ( and don't symbolize), apparently happened already.
Newsflash: Revelation 6 is happening right now.


It doesn't, but this is not the only MK scripture. Need to go over that list I gave, you are in denial.



I recently did a study on thus subject but I doubt you will take it seriously.
The Millennial Kingdom



Christians who enter into the MK are not phonies. What happens within the 1000 year period is children are born, born into sin and so must learn, believe, receive the Lord and though it will be a Christian world, filled with the knowledge of God, the rebellious nature flares up. It doesn't take long. Look at Israel's history. Even without Satan to tempt them and with the Lord ruling, people want to go their own way. So it is not those who entered into the Kingdom in the beginning, who know, believe and love the Lord that turn away; it is a portion of those born during this period.

Where did Jesus teach that - it is the Jews who are grafted into the vine that repopulate the earth ... with any post-rapture Christians that have survived the Great Tribulation and wrath of God"? What you reference is Romans 11 that speaks about an olive tree. You do not seem to know the difference.

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that the "Millennial Kingdom is ... a covenant with Israel (the bloodline from the tribes)? Why do you keep forcing your beliefs on the sacred text?
 

WPM

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We teach it because itis biblical and not derived from believers 50-200 years removed from the original writings. Eschatological passages were hidden until we grew near then end as God told Daniel.

Millenialists believe in the literal translation of the bible and we see a first resurrection before the 1,000 years start and a second resurrection after teh 1000 years are over.

We see in the bible God fulfilling HIS unconditional promises to Israel and giving them their covenanted Kingdom. Revelation only tells us how long that kingdom lasts before eternity sets in.

If you look at the writings of the early church fathers, eschatology was very low priority in the order of subjects. Why? Because the second, third and fourth centuries were very hard on the church as more and more gentiles were being added and philosophies crept in to pollute the pure doctrines of Scripture.

YOu also need to remember that the early church had not easy access to the OT( not even synagogues had the entire OT scrolls). So much information about teh end times and the kingdom was unknown to many church scholars who were gentiles.

You seem to be misrepresenting the early Chiliasts, just because they do not agree with you. The fact is, they had a deeper revelation of Old and New Testament truth than most believers today. They had a broad, thorough and compelling understanding of many biblical truths. They were forced to know their beliefs because of the stiff opposition they endured from all sides. It is clear that the early Chiliasts had a clearer view of eschatological truth than most modern Premils.
 

WPM

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Exactly.

The unbelievers that are alive at the return of Jesus mistreat the brethren of Jesus(Jews) per Ez 38.

Quote it and show the parallel, if you can.
 
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