The Bible is more a record of those who "know", than those who "believe."

[Stranger]

No... You are combining those whom God has separated for a time, clearly identifying them as different. You cannot redefine what God has defined...nor can you redefine the definition of each even by use of common language. You are not being honest.
It does not say that "believers" "know", but rather that those who have "received" "anointing" "know." Perhaps you would do better to define the difference between one who "believes" that has not received the Holy Spirit, and one who has received the Holy Spirit - neither of whom have "seen."
So you say...which is not true in the way that I have presented it to you. When Paul "saw" a light for heaven shine around him and "heard" the voice of Christ, he did indeed see and hear. But others, filled with the Holy Spirit or not, whom did believe him...did NOT see or hear as Paul had. This is just one example - but you cannot deny it...and yet seem to insist upon doing so, against the word of God. You too kick against the goads.

Oh? (2Cor. 1:21-22) " Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

As you can see, Paul puts the Corinthian believers as 'anointed' as he and the apostles. And what a group they were. But yet they were anointed. Thus your attempt to make the 'anointed' in (1John 2:20,27) as pertaining to the 'knowers' is unscriptural. Even the carnal believers in the Corinthian Church were anointed. All believers know. All believers have been anointed. You're not special.

As for your example of Paul, Paul was not journying with believers. He was with unbelievers. So why should they hear? They certainly were not filled with the Holy Spirit. Your example fails.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Oh? (2Cor. 1:21-22) " Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

As you can see, Paul puts the Corinthian believers as 'anointed' as he and the apostles. And what a group they were. But yet they were anointed. Thus your attempt to make the 'anointed' in (1John 2:20,27) as pertaining to the 'knowers' is unscriptural. Even the carnal believers in the Corinthian Church were anointed.

There you go again, reading into things what is not there. Paul did not say they were "anointed" but "sealed." He only said they were a party to their (Paul's) anointing. "Sealed" in this context, means they were "preserved" for a future time.

All believers know.

A contradiction in terms.

All believers have been anointed.

Not according to Christ.

You're not special.

Not according to Christ.

As for your example of Paul, Paul was not journying with believers. He was with unbelievers. So why should they hear? They certainly were not filled with the Holy Spirit. Your example fails.

I was not speaking of whom he traveled with, but of those who believe his story. Do you believe his story? Because, if you do - he saw and heard - but YOU did not. Are you going to tell me that because you "believe" him, you too saw and heard what he saw and heard? Be honest.

 

[Stranger]

There you go again, reading into things what is not there. Paul did not say they were "anointed" but "sealed." He only said they were a party to their (Paul's) anointing. "Sealed" in this context, means they were "preserved" for a future time.

A contradiction in terms.

Not according to Christ.

Not according to Christ.
I was not speaking of whom he traveled with, but of those who believe his story. Do you believe his story? Because, if you do - he saw and heard - but YOU did not. Are you going to tell me that because you "believe" him, you too saw and heard what he saw and heard? Be honest.

Indeed Paul did say the Corinthian believers were anointed. "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

So, out of these four acts of God, which ones are you saying do not pertain to the Corinthian believers?

Oh, so you are special. Well you may think so.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

Indeed Paul did say the Corinthian believers were anointed. "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Again...you are reading into it.

Paul is speaking of being 'sealed', as a future "guarantee", by the "same God" who "anointed" Paul. It's all there, you're just running it all together when you have no business doing so.

Read the whole book...he is lovingly chastising those to whom he had preached, with sorrow...because they were not acting as anointed...because they weren't: "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." ...because they weren't (not reconciled to God - not anointed).

 

[Stranger]

Again...you are reading into it.

Paul is speaking of being 'sealed', as a future "guarantee", by the "same God" who "anointed" Paul. It's all there, you're just running it all together when you have no business doing so.

Read the whole book...he is lovingly chastising those to whom he had preached, with sorrow...because they were not acting as anointed...because they weren't: "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God." ...because they weren't (not reconciled to God - not anointed).

No, I'm not reading into it. I am reading it. (1Cor. 1:21-22) The believers with Paul receive the anointing, the sealing, and the earnest of the Spirit.

Just like the believers in (1John 2:20) " But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."

Just like in (1John 2:27) " But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:

All believers receive the anointing, and the Spirit, and 'know'.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

i'm not sure how you are going to remedy the differences in semantics here tbh. All of the relevant terms mean something different to everyone, it seems.

 

[ScottA]

No, I'm not reading into it. I am reading it. (1Cor. 1:21-22) The believers with Paul receive the anointing, the sealing, and the earnest of the Spirit.

Just like the believers in (1John 2:20) " But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."

Just like in (1John 2:27) " But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:

It is YOU who are putting these two scriptures together as if they were the same. They are not.

All believers receive the anointing, and the Spirit, and 'know'.

Only in time. Meanwhile, God gives [different] gifts:

"4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Corinthians 12

Read. Believe: "Different", "same", "different", "same" [individually], but one body. All are not the same (as you say), but are one body. Repent, and stop saying they are the same.

 

[Stranger]

It is YOU who are putting these two scriptures together as if they were the same. They are not.
Only in time. Meanwhile, God gives [different] gifts:

"4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Corinthians 12

Read. Believe: "Different", "same", "different", "same" [individually], but one body. All are not the same (as you say), but are one body. Repent, and stop saying they are the same.

You were not talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit. You were talking about those who 'believe' and those who 'know'. I am not denying their are different gifts of the Spirit. I am denying your claim that there is a difference in those who believe and those who know.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

You were not talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit. You were talking about those who 'believe' and those who 'know'. I am not denying their are different gifts of the Spirit. I am denying your claim that there is a difference in those who believe and those who know.

Stranger

Of course I was talking about the Holy Spirit...that is the difference I have been pointing to.

Among believers, some have the Holy Spirit and some do not. Some know the truth of God via the Holy Spirit, and those who don't have the Holy Spirit do not. Some have that greater relation with God, meaning they are His, and some do not...or at least not yet. That day may come quickly or in time, or not at all. Even the demons "believe." So belief is not salvation or any guarantee of access to knowing God. It is only by the Holy Spirit, which some say they have, and do not. To whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you."

So, even knowing God does not make salvation and the anointing of the Holy Spirit a given.

 

[Stranger]

Of course I was talking about the Holy Spirit...that is the difference I have been pointing to.

Among believers, some have the Holy Spirit and some do not. Some know the truth of God via the Holy Spirit, and those who don't have the Holy Spirit do not. Some have that greater relation with God, meaning they are His, and some do not...or at least not yet. That day may come quickly or in time, or not at all. Even the demons "believe." So belief is not salvation or any guarantee of access to knowing God. It is only by the Holy Spirit, which some say they have, and do not. To whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you."

So, even knowing God does not make salvation and the anointing of the Holy Spirit a given.

You are really changing your story...for the worse. What a lie that is. All believers have the Holy Spirit. (Rom.8:9) "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

From where comes this desire to elevate yourself among believers.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

You are really changing your story...for the worse. What a lie that is. All believers have the Holy Spirit. (Rom.8:9) "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

From where comes this desire to elevate yourself among believers.

Stranger

I will not call you a liar, as you have called me. But you either don't know how to read or something...'cause that statement is qualified with a BIG "if"...and then you completely ignore and deny the last part of the verse.

We're done here.

 

[Stranger]

I will not call you a liar, as you have called me. But you either don't know how to read or something...'cause that statement is qualified with a BIG "if"...and then you completely ignore and deny the last part of the verse.

We're done here.

A big 'if' is all over your statements.

Yeah, I have heard that before.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

PUBLIC NOTICE:

THIS TOPIC WAS ESTABLISHED TO OFFER ASSURANCE TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE BUT HAVE NOT SEEN (OR HEARD, OR HAD THE SKIES OPEN UP FOR THEM). JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE BY FAITH ALONE, ARE ALL THE MORE BLESSED. BUT YOU SHOULD KNOW AND HAVE THE ASSURANCE THAT THERE ARE THOSE AMONG YOU WHOM GOD HAS CHOSEN, WHO HAVE SEEN, OR HEARD, OR WITNESSED SIGNS AND WONDERS...AS DIRECT, FIRST HAND WITNESSES...FOR YOUR BENEFIT. WE DO NOT "BELIEVE' BY "FAITH" ALONE, BUT "KNOW" OF GOD AND CHRIST AS A MATTER OF ESTABLISHED FACT - FROM GOD. THAT IS OUR WITNESS, OUR GIFT, AND OUR BURDEN, WHICH WE GLADLY TAKE UP FOR ALL. THIS IS THE METHOD THAT GOD HAS CHOSEN TO USE SINCE THE PROPHETS OF OLD.

AS YOU CAN SEE, EVEN HERE THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE NOTHING BETTER THAN TO KILL THE PROPHETS, AS IT IS WRITTEN. BUT TAKE HEART - THEY TOO ARE A WITNESS (UNTO THEMSELVES). GOD IS GOOD, AND JUST, AND IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS PROVIDENCE OVER THE OUTCOME OF ALL THAT HE HAS PLANNED. WE ARE IN HIS HANDS - NOT IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO ATTACK. GOD IS THE VICTOR. IT IS FINISHED.

WE KNOW.

 

[DPMartin]

Well it can be a dilemma in terms. One can believe there is a God, but not know God. But one can’t believe God, and not know Him.

One can’t believe what he is never exposed to, or heard of, or seen. Therefore, if the revelation of the Word of God never comes to someone that it is of God, then they can't believe the Word of God is true, or even the Truth of God. Hence the issue is the difference between believing God, of which one would have to receive the revelation from to know, and believing that there is a God, without knowing God.


The fact is, revelation is knowing and knowing is the acknowledgement thereof, but if one doesn’t believe what is revealed (such as Jesus walking amongst His people and they didn’t believe) then one most certainly doesn’t know.

 

[ScottA]

Well it can be a dilemma in terms. One can believe there is a God, but not know God. But one can’t believe God, and not know Him.

One can’t believe what he is never exposed to, or heard of, or seen. Therefore, if the revelation of the Word of God never comes to someone that it is of God, then they can't believe the Word of God is true, or even the Truth of God. Hence the issue is the difference between believing God, of which one would have to receive the revelation from to know, and believing that there is a God, without knowing God.


The fact is, revelation is knowing and knowing is the acknowledgement thereof, but if one doesn’t believe what is revealed (such as Jesus walking amongst His people and they didn’t believe) then one most certainly doesn’t know.

Yeah, thanks. This was never meant to be a thread for debating the terms among fellow followers of Christ. But rather, to make the distinction between other competitive "belief" systems - to say that Christianity is the exception, and is backed by "known" facts witnessed first-hand by real people...and that it's not just another dreamy eyed religion. Not all who are coming into Christianity know things for certain, and some never do. But for the sake of those who do not yet know but believe, we who have come to know, can say with assurance that we "know" of what we speak.

 

[ScottA]

Perhaps, we could here from those who "know" and have experience God first-hand, the way in which they came to "know."

For me, it was like Paul on the road to Damascus. But I also know there are those who have come to know God by other miracles, some audibly, some with signs and wonders, and others by the tender mercies of God in tears. The scriptures tell of many, there are perhaps more that are unwritten and maybe close to home.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Would it matter if the disciples were not saved until Pentecost? They did not receive the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit and thus eternal life until Jesus was no longer with them and had ascended to the Father. It is the Father that sends the promise to all those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.....16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That way, the disciples that have seen Him, can join with other believers that they have received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ, because Jesus had ascended to the Father to not receive that specific promise at their salvation in sight of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul was not saved when he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, but later on, he had received sight and the promise of the Holy Ghost at his salvation. So Paul also can share in that testimony as he was the one giving that epistle to the believing Galatians above.

 

[ScottA]

Would it matter if the disciples were not saved until Pentecost? They did not receive the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit and thus eternal life until Jesus was no longer with them and had ascended to the Father. It is the Father that sends the promise to all those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.....16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That way, the disciples that have seen Him, can join with other believers that they have received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ, because Jesus had ascended to the Father to not receive that specific promise at our salvation in sight of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul was not saved when he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, but later one, he had received sight and the promise of the Holy Ghost at his salvation. So Paul also can share in that testimony as he was the one giving that epistle to the believing Galatians above.

Yeah, great point(s).

The apostles and even disciples of that time had the Bridegroom, so essentially that means the same thing (as receiving the Holy Spirit).

As for Paul, he saw and heard in person and in spirit, making his position more than belief, but rather knowledge obtained first hand.

 

[DPMartin]

Perhaps, we could here from those who "know" and have experience God first-hand, the way in which they came to "know."

For me, it was like Paul on the road to Damascus. But I also know there are those who have come to know God by other miracles, some audibly, some with signs and wonders, and others by the tender mercies of God in tears. The scriptures tell of many, there are perhaps more that are unwritten and maybe close to home.

but again; Paul believed there was a God but didn't know God, but once the Lord revealed Himself to Paul. Paul believed God and that is required to know God. the difference you are talking about is. to believe there is a God, or, to believe God. to believe there is a God isn't to know, to believe God (via His Word made flesh in the world we now know as Jesus Christ the Son of God) is to know.

 

[ScottA]

but again; Paul believed there was a God but didn't know God, but once the Lord revealed Himself to Paul. Paul believed God and that is required to know God. the difference you are talking about is. to believe there is a God, or, to believe God. to believe there is a God isn't to know, to believe God (via His Word made flesh in the world we now know as Jesus Christ the Son of God) is to know.

It is pretty obvious that Paul was completely up on all the news and happenings surrounding Jesus, and did not believe. Then chronologically, he would have instantly by his supernatural experience come to "know" that he had been all wrong about Jesus, and right then and there he called him Lord. So, yes, he "believed" there was a God prior to that experience. But that was not "knowledge", but rather "belief", and only became knowledge once his belief was confirmed.