That's your problem then. And you wonder why I said you attack the Bible? You just did it.
The Bible
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tomwebster
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- Dec 11, 2006
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So what do you think a "just" God is going to do with those that choose not to love Him? Choose to disobey Him?
Oh! I disagree with your OP.
He is certainly not going to 'spank an infant' (punish His creation that simply didn't 'get it' on in life) - a Just God is going to treat the unredeemed as sick. Since the unredeemed cannot be in the presence of a Holy God - they will have to be separated. Hell is the place He will send them - it will be horrible, but at least they can exist there.
Tell me why you disagree?
Do you believe that God drowned everyone on Earth but 8 to make an example?
2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
I believe the point of those stories were:
1. Cultural identity
2. God's omnipotence
3. Motivation for morality
Whether the stories actually happened is not important to me, nor was it important to the ancient Jews and Christians. People who lived before the Enlightenment probably never asked if it really happened - we think about the world so differently today. I seriously think asking if it really happened is sort of like wondering what Adam actually named the animals.
So do I believe that God wiped out all of humanity (except 8) because they offended Him or vengefully cast down angels into Hell and burned up Sodom and Gomorrah because the people sinned like people still do today? I believe all of those things happened, but humanity attributed it to God and assigned wrathful intentions. To believe that God treated His enemies (even to imagine that God was petty enough to call His broken creation enemies) so poorly is inconsistent with His character.
In fact, it would be immoral to worship a god with such inconsistent and vengeful morality. I would not ask my kids to hold to a higher moral standard than I was willing to live by - and God is much greater than a human father, child relationship.
"Eat from the tree and die".
Seems like he explained it in pretty freaking simple terms we could "get" and yet we still spat in his face.
Then who do you attribute it to?
"Then the LORD said to Noah, "For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground."
Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
You are comparing yourself, a sinner, to the omnipotent God of the Bible. Jesus believed the Genesis Flood account, but of course He was there.
Luke 17:26-30 (NKJV)
[sup]26 [/sup]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
[sup]27 [/sup]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
[sup]28 [/sup]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
[sup]29 [/sup]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
[sup]30 [/sup]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Oh yeah, Jesus also believed the burning of Sodom account. He was there too.
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You really think that Adam and Eve ate the fruit to spite God?
Like I said before, I think the events happened - I believe God allows catastrophes to occur, but I believe the people added the wrathful intentions to the events. The OT reads just like all ancient documents:
1. Natural disaster occurs
2. People believe their behavior or lack of behavior has angered the gods - in this case God
3. God must be punishing us for our evil ways.
I certainly believe they were right about God being all powerful, but petty, vengeful, and full of wrath - no way.
Honestly, it sounds like you clearly don't believe the Bible.
Hebrews 10:30-31 (NKJV)
[sup]30 [/sup]For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
[sup]31 [/sup]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I believe the Bible is a record of God's people. I believe the human behavior in the OT should be read as a cautionary tale because if it is read as a guide to morality it ends up promoting the 'ends justifying the means'. I believe God did everything possible to communicate with His people throughout the OT, but most of His people could not break out of their dualistic thinking - 'God hates me / God loves me based on my behavior' - long enough to really get what He was saying and it took Jesus coming to Earth, ministering, and dieing for us before we understood how God really wants to relate with us. Once again, I believe the OT and NT are inspired, but limited by human limitations. At the same time, I think the Bible is written exactly the way God wants it to be written - yet it only gives us a glimpse of who He is and how to be open to the beginning of a justified and sanctified relationship with Christ. The rest - the majority of our sanctification occurs in our heart and interactions with our neighbors as Christ teaches us to be citizens of Heaven. The Bible is more of a sign pointing to an active relationship with Christ than an ends to a mean - if that makes sense.
So, based on my believe that the Bible is a signpost to an active relationship of sanctification - the details do not matter as much as the larger picture of the stories, parables, and history, It is not that I have a hard time believing in the miracles Jesus performed (for example), but I am more interested in how they can help me love in the highest capacity possible. I guess I just have a different focus than a lot of people here.
I am not interested in memorizing and providing the 'right' answer to theological questions as I am in grasping the larger picture and applying it to my relationship with God and my neighbor
I do not believe in a literal translation of the Bible in most cases, because it is so limiting. A literal translation only ministers to the brain and only after considerable mental gymnastics to make it all fit and serious moral compromises
What is your point? Please state clearly if you believe the Genesis Flood and the burning of Sodom actually happened.
I think you are most concerned that I provide the 'right' answer than a well thought out response. I already answered your question in a previous post. Also, I added to the last post I wrote after you responded.
"So do I believe that God wiped out all of humanity (except 8) because they offended Him or vengefully cast down angels into Hell and burned up Sodom and Gomorrah because the people sinned like people still do today? I believe all of those things happened, but humanity attributed it to God and assigned wrathful intentions. To believe that God treated His enemies (even to imagine that God was petty enough to call His broken creation enemies) so poorly is inconsistent with His character."
Jesus believed the story of the Flood was a useful story to make His point. It is the same with S&G. Whether it actually happen is irrelevant to the ancient world - it is only important to our post-Enlightenment minds. We are taught to only value facts.
How would you classify killing all the men, women, children, and life on earth?
As MERCY?
Did Peter speak of the "general picture" or did he speak to the complexities of Scripture and tell people to study them?
2 Peter 3:16, "There are some things in them that are hard to understand"
What other way would the Bible be delivered to us? God can't pen his mind to us- we couldn't understand it.
Just as for the same reason Jesus didn't stay in heaven and be killed in heaven... God made it visible to man in a way we could understand it.
Jesus cited the Genesis Flood and burning of Sodom because they happened. He was there.
You've already admitted he caused it. And now you seemingly backtrack again. So I will ask two questions- answer both.
1) Did God send the flood?
2.1) If the flood was sent by God, what is it characterized as? Wrath, mercy, pixie dust?
2.2) If the flood was not sent by God, explain these passages.
"Then the LORD said to Noah, "For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot outfrom the face of the ground."
Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
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