The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

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Keraz

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Only reason you concede the two witnesses is because you have no choice.View attachment 4690

A two man only rapture.View attachment 4689
Yes: the 2 Witnesses are the only people said to go to heaven and as they are killed first, they will join all those martyrs whose souls are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-11
Then, at the Return of Jesus, which is almost immediately after they are killed, they will be resurrected to life and will reign with Jesus for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4
 

Enoch111

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...the 2 Witnesses are the only people said to go to heaven
We also have the 144,000 raptured to Heaven -- *redeemed from the earth*, *redeemed from among men*, and found singing a unique song before the throne of God in Heaven. (Rev 14).

But it gets better. There is a great multitude which no man can number, also found in Heaven before the throne of God, because they had earlier been raptured before the Great Tribulation.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... (Rev 7:9)

So you are on EXTREMELY SHAKY GROUND when you deny the Rapture and assert that the Church saints will dwell on earth. In fact, you are opposing Scripture (which is always a bad thing).
 

n2thelight

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Flesh (the human body) is NOT evil as taught by the Gnostics. There will be transformed and glorified human bodies in Heaven (in the New Jerusalem), as well as saved and righteous human beings on earth in actual bodies, when the New Earth is established (and also during the Millennium).

Christ is presently in Heaven in an actual human body which of course is glorified and glorious. And in any event there is no such thing as the *age of the flesh* which will eventually disappear.

Let me let Paul explain it to you

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

Paul is comparing our flesh body with other living things, such as a grain of wheat. When the seed is separated from its parent plant it is as naked as a new born baby. This is the body of the wheat, and this is not the grain that you see coming for in new plants next year. This seed of wheat that you set aside for the next years crop is what must die before it can raise up again in a new form. That body of wheat is gone, and that is what happens to our flesh. It must die before the new beautiful spiritual body can come forth.

The flesh body must die and be buried in the ground, for no where is it recorded that a flesh body will resurrect from the dead. Christ's body did rise again, for it paid the price for our sins for one and all times. However, when Christ's body came out of the tomb, it had to be transfigured or flesh man simply could not see Him.

The body of the wheat or of flesh that dies and is planted in the ground is not the same body that springs forth into new life. It is the Spiritual body that ascends to be with the Father, not the flesh. Again the subject is the physical body.

When you plant any seed, flowers, corn, or wheat, there is an embryo deep inside of the body of that plant. As the body of the parent plant decays, it feeds this little embryo that is deep within that seed or kernel of corn. Then when the water, and temperature, and soil are just right, then that embryo springs forth into new life, and a new plant is formed. That is exactly as it is with our flesh body, the old flesh body must die before the new life of our new spiritual of soul body can come forth. The time that it takes for the new spiritual life to come from the death of the old flesh body is instant.

The instant that the flesh body dies, the soul and spirit body is present with the Lord that gave it in the first place. The flesh decays back into the elements of the earth that it is made of, and your soul returns to the Father. Paul could not have made it more simpler than the using of a grain of wheat in comparison to our flesh bodies. Just as all of nature functions, so it is with man.


I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

1corin15
 

CoreIssue

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Yes: the 2 Witnesses are the only people said to go to heaven and as they are killed first, they will join all those martyrs whose souls are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-11
Then, at the Return of Jesus, which is almost immediately after they are killed, they will be resurrected to life and will reign with Jesus for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

The second coming is 3 1/2 years after they die and are raptured.
 

Keraz

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The second coming is 3 1/2 years after they die and are raptured.
Revelation 11:2-3....for 42 months the Gentiles will trample the holy city....My two Witnesses will prophecy for those 1260 days. Obviously the Witnesses are in Jerusalem during the time of the gentiles. Which is the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
So you are on EXTREMELY SHAKY GROUND when you deny the Rapture and assert that the Church saints will dwell on earth. In fact, you are opposing Scripture (which is always a bad thing).
Your 'shaky ground' is in believing something that Jesus specifically said was impossible:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10
 

CoreIssue

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Yes: the 2 Witnesses are the only people said to go to heaven and as they are killed first, they will join all those martyrs whose souls are kept under the heavenly Altar. Revelation 6:9-11
Then, at the Return of Jesus, which is almost immediately after they are killed, they will be resurrected to life and will reign with Jesus for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

Does not say that

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breathb]">[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
 

n2thelight

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Two resurrections


The first is not a one day event. It includes the two witnesses at mid trib and all the saints that die during the MK.


There's no blessing for those in the second resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya]">[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


Revelation 20:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Do you understand what the resurrection is?
 

Enoch111

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Let me let Paul explain it to you
No need. Resurrection means that the same body which died will be brought to life. At the same time, it will not be an ordinary body. It will be a perfect, sinless, glorified body, radiating light, and free of earthly limitations. Hence a "spiritual body" (not a spirit being).
 
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n2thelight

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No need. Resurrection means that the same body which died will be brought to life. At the same time, it will not be an ordinary body. It will be a perfect, sinless, glorified body, radiating light, and free of earthly limitations. Hence a "spiritual body" (not a spirit being).

Flesh returns back to dust from where it came from,period.So are you not understanding what Paul says?
 

CoreIssue

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Dying in the flesh unsaved does not mean your soul is doomed,only those in Christ will live forever

Bible is quite clear. Live once then judgment.... Is the new Jerusalem or the lake of fire for eternity. No other options.

Depends on how you define life. If you mean conscience, feeling, thinking and such everyone bows forever.

If you mean in the biblical application of with God or without God, then only the saints live forever.
 
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n2thelight

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Bible is quite clear. Live once then judgment.... Is the new Jerusalem or the lake of fire for eternity. No other options.

Depends on how you define life. If you mean conscience, feeling, thinking and such everyone bows forever.

If you mean in the biblical application of with God or without God, then only the saints live forever.

That's when one needs to understand the purpose of the millennium ,no one will be judged in ignorance
 

CoreIssue

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That's when one needs to understand the purpose of the millennium ,no one will be judged in ignorance

I understand the purpose of the millennium kingdom. It is not a second chance.

You act like there one set standard on how people are judged. The Bible makes it very clear there is not. Some are judged by the law of conscious, some by the Mosaic law, some by grace and some by the new covenant when it comes in force.
 

n2thelight

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I understand the purpose of the millennium kingdom. It is not a second chance.

You act like there one set standard on how people are judged. The Bible makes it very clear there is not. Some are judged by the law of conscious, some by the Mosaic law, some by grace and some by the new covenant when it comes in force.

No it's not a 2nd chance however some some didn't have a first chance.