The Carnal Christian

[Netchaplain]

Upon encountering the title of this article one’s first thought might seem negative about it, but with all who become “born again” there is a period of growth that involves learning in the Word of God about the “old man,” which is the sin nature first seen in Adam and Eve, then in the entirety of their progeny—mankind (Rom 5:12-19). Upon rebirth the soul becomes “spiritually minded,” due to the imparting of the Spirit of God and the new nature (new man); and the old man continues to become more obviously identifiable so that we can continue to be taught by it—through the contrast of it with the new man!

Thus, it’s our position in Christ that will mature our walk in Christ, as the carnality will be seen to progressively decrease, as our spirituality increases, thereby maturing from a carnal Christian to a spiritual Christian (1Co 3:1); which within the last few generations requires much time due to the multitude of errant Biblical doctrines, resulting (in my opinion) from the lack of fundamental spiritual-growth-centered teachings (and just not enough Word-time reading and studying).

Thus there now coexists two natures in the soul of the believer, the old man and the new man; and through these both God’s school of godliness is taught, by which those reborn will all “be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom 8:29), and thereby “grow up into Him in all things” (Eph 4:15).

All believers will pass through the “babe-in-Christ” stage (1Co 3:1), for though Christ is in you at rebirth, He is in not yet “formed in you” (Gal 4:19), that is, “unto a perfect man” (mature-in-Christ Eph 4:13), which concerns our “walk” or lifestyle. Redemption-wise believers are complete in Christ, which the lifestyle will manifest more all the time of what we already are in Christ.

As long as we are presently earthly bound we can never be completely free of carnality, which always remains to some degree or another, due to the indwelling of the old man; but this has no effect on our fully redemptive position in Christ, only on our growth in the strength of our faith. “Through faith,” grace came to us, and it is through the strengthening of our faith (only via the studying of Word of God by His Spirit) that we are able to “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ” (2Pe 3:18).

 

[Episkopos]

Thus there now coexists two natures in the soul of the believer, the old man and the new man;

I agree with the OP in principle but for a few important points.

When a person is born anew by the Spirit...OLD things are passed away. That means that everything is different...including the passing of the old man. Who we once were....the old man...is no longer a historic reality. So then from then on the battle is between the carnal man and the spiritual man or the outer and inner man...the flesh and the Spirit. Paul never uses the term "old man" again after conversion.

As long as we are presently earthly bound we can never be completely free of carnality, which always remains to some degree or another, due to the indwelling of the old man;

This is just plain false. We can overcome all things through Christ. The power of Christ and HIS death in us keeps the natural man powerless so that the inner man can rise up by the grace of God. We can be spotless. The blood of Christ does not partially cleanse us from sin. Jesus died to eradicate ALL sin in us.

Those who have not experienced this power (grace) of resurrection life have not yet experienced the power of the cross of Christ. Paul says ...no longer I.... all that is natural is crucified...dead to sin.

Is Christ a minister of sin? Of course not. Those who preach that sin is in Christ...by claiming to be in Christ and yet walking in the flesh...will be judged.

If one abides in Christ that one cannot sin. There is no sin IN Christ. You can't be both in sin and in Christ.

So they who say they abide in Him and sin are liars.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, good post. a few things

and through these both God’s school of godliness is taught

Who's better equipt to teach us about Evil, than the one who created it.

and I agree with the struggle of the old man, the apostle Paul had it too, the answer, Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Paul was saved).
Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

PICJAG.

 

[Netchaplain]

I agree with the OP in principle but for a few important points.
When a person is born anew by the Spirit...OLD things are passed away. That means that everything is different...including the passing of the old man. Who we once were....the old man...is no longer a historic reality. So then from then on the battle is between the carnal man and the spiritual man or the outer and inner man...the flesh and the Spirit. Paul never uses the term "old man" again after conversion.

Hi and always appreciate your replies and comments! I suspect we mean the same thing, but to clarify what I mean by "the old man" is the sin nature, which continues to indwell the believer. Though believers "are not in the flesh" (old nature - Rom 8:9), yet it is in them (Rom 7:17, 20), and by the "new nature" (Col 3:10) the Spirit directs us in our hearts and minds to "live after" Him and not after it (Rom 8:5). This answers to the "passing of old things" (2Co 5:17), which means the passing of the desires of living after the old man (which doesn't mean the impossibility of living without sinning).

This is just plain false. We can overcome all things through Christ. The power of Christ and HIS death in us keeps the natural man powerless so that the inner man can rise up by the grace of God. We can be spotless. The blood of Christ does not partially cleanse us from sin. Jesus died to eradicate ALL sin in us.

True, Christ cleansed believers from their sin, and this permanently suffices our guiltless position in Him, but does not remove nor kills the old man. It is written that the "old man is crucified" (Rom 6:6), but it is never said to be dead. We are "dead" to it (Rom 6:2, 11) but this only involves freedom from its "damnation" (Rom 8:1) and its "dominion" (Rom 6:14), and to me being loosed from its dominion means it can no longer cause us to desire after it, i.e. "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26).

This is the point Paul was making concerning being a "captive to the law of sin" (Rom 7:23), meaning when believers sin it is always against their will to do so (unlike before when it was our will or desire). Believers progressively live by the new nature more than the old, and I think this is seen in 1Jhn 3:9:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." That which is in us being "born of God" is the "seed," or new nature, thus we, in or after our new nature "cannot sin." Paul mentioned this in the phrase "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Rom 7:25). "I myself refers to him in his new nature ("seed"), and "with the flesh" means the old nature. I believe the instruction here is that believers do not seek to live after the old nature, which is the main point of desiring after God, and is manifested via the Spirit's opposition to the sin nature (Gal 5:17), and God's "work" in us (Phl 2:13).

God's blessings to your family!

 

[APAK]

Very well said NC...and for further scripture..

1Co 3:1 Spiritual Growth
And I, brothers, can not speak to you as spiritual people, but as carnal people, as infants in Christ.

1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not with solid food. For you were not yet able to bear it; no, not even now are you able.

1Co 3:3 For you are still carnal. For whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are you not carnal and do you not walk after the manner of men?

Rom 6:5 " For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. "

Rom 6:6 " Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin. "

Rom 6:7 For he that has died is set free from sin.


Eph 4:23 But you, being renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Eph 4:24 put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Eph 4:25 Therefore, putting away falsehood, each one of you speak the truth with his neighbour. For we are members one of another.

Eph 4:26 In your anger, do not sin! Do not let the sun set while you remain angry.

'Crucified' in scripture here and other areas can mean dying or dead. The tense is all important I believe the intend here was to mean, dying, not completely dead yet. s you said, that old sin nature is not eradicated yet.

@Netchaplain this is great OP for all to hear over again. Many I suspect might still have the incorrect conception of sinning against the new will of the new man inside a believer. And it is not counted as sin in the eyes of the Father. Thank his name, indeed for allowing us to be reseeded if you will, in his will through Christ's spirit..pun intended.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Netchaplain]

Addressing the OP, good post. a few things

Who's better equipt to teach us about Evil, than the one who created it.

and I agree with the struggle of the old man, the apostle Paul had it too,

I was replying to Episkopos with about the same here which you've posted, and thanks for your encouragement! I would go as far to say that our old man (sin nature) is not much different than the Enemies, making it his main ally (Jhn 8:23, 38, 41, 42, 44).

 

[marks]

Hi @Netchaplain,

There seems to be some confusion among some that when God says to the Christians in Corinth, who are allowing and causing division, "are you not carnal?", that this is creating some new "classification" of Christians, that is, there is the "Carnal Christian", and there is the "Spiritual Christian".

But is sounds like you are more talking about this in terms of, we start off more carnal, and become more spiritual, are we on the same page here?

For all I hear about "two natures", I tend to more think of "two people", namely "old mark" and "new mark". Old mark was born from my earthly parents, and is a descendant from Adam. New mark is born from God, and is a descendant of God.

Old mark is described as a body that possesses personality, emotion, and volition, and all of these are corrupted by sin, ruled by that corruption.

New mark is described as a righteous and holy creation of God, who occupies old mark's body alongside old mark.

Old mark is what is called the outer man, the flesh, the old man, and has the mind of the flesh.

New mark is what is called the inner man, the new creature, the new man, and has the mind of Christ.

Old mark is me, but not born again.

New mark is the new me having been born again.

Old mark always and only sins.

New mark always and only does righteousness.

Old mark sounds like me in my thoughts. But new mark is me.

I can know which is which by learning the Bible. That which does not agree is old mark. That which agrees is new mark.

Old mark has neither strength nor authority to exert his will over new mark. New mark has all power and authority to extert his will over old mark.

What is often called progressive sanctification, or in this case, the carnal becoming spiritual, is, to me, new mark getting better at denying old mark access to the body, i.e., not letting old mark type this post, but making sure new mark is doing it.

Nothing good lives in old mark. But new mark is just that - new.

Your thoughts? Are we on the same page here?

Much love!
mark

 

[Netchaplain]

'Crucified' in scripture here and other areas can mean dying or dead. The tense is all important I believe the intend here was to mean, dying, not completely dead yet. s you said, that old sin nature is not eradicated yet.

Hi Brother and thanks for your encouraging support! This is a significant comment concerning "crucified," as it is said in the sense that is continuing, We in our "new man" left the Cross, but the "old man" is still on it, being restrained from dominating the believer. For how can one still be crucified after one has died. We have died to it, but it is not dead to us! The Majority Text reads "is crucified," not was crucified (Rom 6:6 - KJV and Webster's Bible).

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Netchaplain]

There seems to be some confusion among some that when God says to the Christians in Corinth, who are allowing and causing division, "are you not carnal?", that this is creating some new "classification" of Christians, that is, there is the "Carnal Christian", and there is the "Spiritual Christian".

But is sounds like you are more talking about this in terms of, we start off more carnal, and become more spiritual, are we on the same page here?

Yes, all who are reborn can see their desires and lifestyles concerning sin progressively changing, as none are reborn and are instantly mature spiritually. But the guilt issue isn't in the sinning but in the intentions, wherein believers always "will to do" God's "pleasure" (Phl 2:13), even while they desire not to sin.

For all I hear about "two natures", I tend to more think of "two people", namely "old mark" and "new mark". Old mark was born from my earthly parents, and is a descendant from Adam. New mark is born from God, and is a descendant of God.

Old mark is described as a body that possesses personality, emotion, and volition, and all of these are corrupted by sin, ruled by that corruption.

New mark is described as a righteous and holy creation of God, who occupies old mark's body alongside old mark.

Old mark is what is called the outer man, the flesh, the old man, and has the mind of the flesh.

New mark is what is called the inner man, the new creature, the new man, and has the mind of Christ.

Old mark is me, but not born again.

New mark is the new me having been born again.

Old mark always and only sins.

New mark always and only does righteousness.

Old mark sounds like me in my thoughts. But new mark is me.

I can know which is which by learning the Bible. That which does not agree is old mark. That which agrees is new mark.

Old mark has neither strength nor authority to exert his will over new mark. New mark has all power and authority to extert his will over old mark.

What is often called progressive sanctification, or in this case, the carnal becoming spiritual, is, to me, new mark getting better at denying old mark access to the body, i.e., not letting old mark type this post, but making sure new mark is doing it.

Nothing good lives in old mark. But new mark is just that - new.

Your thoughts? Are we on the same page here?

Much love!
mark

Yes, we are in agreement, but I want to point out something I believe may help for now. The "old man" has nothing to do with the physical body because it is the sinful nature of man. Flesh has two primary definitions: 1) the physical body 2) the sin nature of man.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) - look at definition IV

 

[APAK]

Hi Brother and thanks for your encouraging support! This is a significant comment concerning "crucified," as it is said in the sense that is continuing, We in our "new man" left the Cross, but the "old man" is still on it, being restrained from dominating the believer. For how can one still be crucified after one has died. We have died to it, but it is not dead to us! The Majority Text reads "is crucified," not was crucified (Rom 6:6 - KJV and Webster's Bible).

God's blessings to your Family!

Copy that NC...in agreement, again and not surprised.
(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (KJV)

(2Co 3:18) And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (ESV)

The old sin nature of the flesh is crucified overhead, and still kicking a bit, though destined to die.
It is a work in progress and progress it is, as I have felt it and seen it in my life and my spouse...APAK

 

[Episkopos]

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." That which is in us being "born of God" is the "seed," or new nature, thus we, in or after our new nature "cannot sin." Paul mentioned this in the phrase "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Rom 7:25). "I myself refers to him in his new nature ("seed"), and "with the flesh" means the old nature. I believe the instruction here is that believers do not seek to live after the old nature, which is the main point of desiring after God, and is manifested via the Spirit's opposition to the sin nature (Gal 5:17), and God's "work" in us (Phl 2:13).

So you are saying that Christ lives a sinful life through us. But Christ is not a minister of sin. You have ignored my statements based on there being no sin IN Him. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to agree with the gnostic notion that you can be sinful and without sin at the same time. A person can go back and forth...but not be both pure and impure simultaneously.

You have misunderstood Paul. If you live by the flesh...you will die. But you believe you are saved in spite of this.

You are not understanding the power of God...of grace...that causes us to live by HIS resurrection power. But then all the ministry of today is powerless and lacking understanding. Otherwise it would not be tolerated. It is the itching ears that make ministries today. It is very sad.

 

[marks]

Yes, all who are reborn can see their desires and lifestyles concerning sin progressively changing, as none are reborn and are instantly mature spiritually. But the guilt issue isn't in the sinning but in the intentions, wherein believers always "will to do" God's "pleasure" (Phl 2:13), even while they desire not to sin.



Yes, we are in agreement, but I want to point out something I believe may help for now. The "old man" has nothing to do with the physical body because it is the sinful nature of man. Flesh has two primary definitions: 1) the physical body 2) the sin nature of man.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) - look at definition IV

Hi NC,

I understand that most people look at it that way. But I'm not convinced. And personally, I find that thinking of the "old man", the flesh, as the original creation of "me" is a very useful model. And it's also what I think the Bible portrays.

Here's how I think of this.

There are things my physical body wants, such as food, and sex, and comfort, you know, all that. There are things my "mind" wants, security, affirmation, stimulation, actualization, all that. And the original me, my body with it's wants, my mind with it's wants, in none of these did I look to God, either to receive from Him, or to honor Him in how I met these wants, or even whether I should have. It was all outside of faith, therefore it was all self-serving, and therefore sin.

And it will continue on this way until destroyed.

There is then the new me, who, when my body gets hungry, and wants to steal to eat, or wants to eat to excess, the new me denies that, since it's not what God wants. But an appropriate appetite, that I'll allow. Lusts for other than my wife? Deny.

The desire rests in my biology. The mind of the flesh as a low morality. But the mind of Christ is to preside over the lusts of the flesh, and is even to preside over every thought, making sure that they all obey Christ. Because not all do. The thought of the flesh mind are the ones I have to subjugate.

So my body has wants, but I keep it on a leash.

Much love!
mark

 

[Netchaplain]

So you are saying that Christ lives a sinful life through us. But Christ is not a minister of sin. You have ignored my statements based on there being no sin IN Him. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to agree with the gnostic notion that you can be sinful and without sin at the same time. A person can go back and forth...but not be both pure and impure simultaneously.

You have misunderstood Paul. If you live by the flesh...you will die. But you believe you are saved in spite of this.

You are not understanding the power of God...of grace...that causes us to live by HIS resurrection power. But then all the ministry of today is powerless and lacking understanding. Otherwise it would not be tolerated. It is the itching ears that make ministries today. It is very sad.

I understand why you're reasoning this way, but it appears our understanding differs in all this. Living by the sinful nature means you are still desiring to follow it instead of the Spirit of God (not suspecting you though). One can "live in the Spirit" and not yet learn to "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 5:25), which takes time and study of His Word. The evidence of walking in the Spirit is most seen in the love we have towards one another, regardless of our understanding of Biblical doctrine, because this is what doctrine is all about.

 

[Episkopos]

I understand why you're reasoning this way, but it appears our understanding differs in all this. Living by the sinful nature means you are still desiring to follow it instead of the Spirit of God (not suspecting you though). One can "live in the Spirit" and not yet learn to "walk in the Spirit" (Gal 5:25), which takes time and study of His Word. The evidence of walking in the Spirit is most seen in the love we have towards one another, regardless of our understanding of Biblical doctrine, because this is what doctrine is all about.

But there is a keeping power of God one enters into immediately when we put on Christ. This is not a maturity issue...which also exists of course....but a PURITY issue. Holiness IOW.

There is an event when God visits us...just like in the book of Acts. Whereby we are clothed with HIS righteousness to walk in HIS power. This is not something gradual...but sudden. It is a baptism of the Spirit and fire.

From that we are translated into His presence...to walk in His life.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi NC,

I understand that most people look at it that way. But I'm not convinced. And personally, I find that thinking of the "old man", the flesh, as the original creation of "me" is a very useful model. And it's also what I think the Bible portrays.

Here's how I think of this.

There are things my physical body wants, such as food, and sex, and comfort, you know, all that. There are things my "mind" wants, security, affirmation, stimulation, actualization, all that. And the original me, my body with it's wants, my mind with it's wants, in none of these did I look to God, either to receive from Him, or to honor Him in how I met these wants, or even whether I should have. It was all outside of faith, therefore it was all self-serving, and therefore sin.

And it will continue on this way until destroyed.

There is then the new me, who, when my body gets hungry, and wants to steal to eat, or wants to eat to excess, the new me denies that, since it's not what God wants. But an appropriate appetite, that I'll allow. Lusts for other than my wife? Deny.

The desire rests in my biology. The mind of the flesh as a low morality. But the mind of Christ is to preside over the lusts of the flesh, and is even to preside over every thought, making sure that they all obey Christ. Because not all do. The thought of the flesh mind are the ones I have to subjugate.

So my body has wants, but I keep it on a leash.

Much love!
mark

To me the body is an object or thing, e.g. car, pencil, shoe, etc. and thus cannot incur sin but only be used to commit sin. It's the spirit and soul that incurs sin, and the body is subject to them. If the body is sinful it could not be said to be "holy" and the "temple of God" (1Co 6:19).

 

[Netchaplain]

But there is a keeping power of God one enters into immediately when we put on Christ. This is not a maturity issue...which also exists of course....but a PURITY issue. Holiness IOW.

There is an event when God visits us...just like in the book of Acts. Whereby we are clothed with HIS righteousness to walk in HIS power. This is not something gradual...but sudden. It is a baptism of the Spirit and fire.

From that we are translated into His presence...to walk in His life.

I believe we are fully redeemed in our spirit and soul at the point of rebirth (does not admit in degrees), thus receiving salvation does not require any type of progression, only manifesting this truth is via a progressively maturing walk. Salvation isn't from the walk, but the walk is from salvation. It's okay if we disagree and understand differently, because it only limits fellowship with one another, which is the point of salvation.

 

[Netchaplain]

Copy that NC...in agreement, again and not surprised.
(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (KJV)

Wanted to point out that the intention of the "body of sin" is in reference to the sinful nature (old man), e.g. it is said to be a "body" with its members (Col 3:5), and its "deeds" (Rom 8:13).

 

[APAK]

But there is a keeping power of God one enters into immediately when we put on Christ. This is not a maturity issue...which also exists of course....but a PURITY issue. Holiness IOW.

There is an event when God visits us...just like in the book of Acts. Whereby we are clothed with HIS righteousness to walk in HIS power. This is not something gradual...but sudden. It is a baptism of the Spirit and fire.

From that we are translated into His presence...to walk in His life.

Have you considered that we are being baptized in Christ and immersed into him constantly, until we eventually emerge out ourselves, out, into glory and immortality, in the future. So we 'put on Christ' as being immersed in him today and walk in this immersion, in sanctification. This 'covering' or baptism is not a one time act as as most Christians perform as their profession and allegiance and symbolism of dying with Christ and rising with his to new life. It is a constant covering to become more like Christ, of 'dying and rising,' as we continue to 'kill off the old man.' We carry our cross as Christ, until we 'drop' dead....reaching the end of our race to our own finish line...

Just saying...

APAK

 

[marks]

But there is a keeping power of God one enters into immediately when we put on Christ. This is not a maturity issue...which also exists of course....but a PURITY issue. Holiness IOW.

There is an event when God visits us...just like in the book of Acts. Whereby we are clothed with HIS righteousness to walk in HIS power. This is not something gradual...but sudden. It is a baptism of the Spirit and fire.

From that we are translated into His presence...to walk in His life.

Here again I'll still say that I believe this happens when one is born again, but that we're not experienced in living this way, and we oftentimes don't believe that we can, so we don't.

But I truly believe that every born again Christian has received everything needed to live righteous and holy.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

To me the body is an object or thing, e.g. car, pencil, shoe, etc. and thus cannot incur sin but only be used to commit sin. It's the spirit and soul that incurs sin, and the body is subject to them. If the body is sinful it could not be said to be "holy" and the "temple of God" (1Co 6:19).

Hi NC,

I think this is the majority opinion, at least from those I've heard express a view.

Romans 6, I think, lends itself well to that view also, in that we are to present our members not as instruments of sin, but as instruments of righteousness.

But then, I could argue, as I do, that the presentation of our body parts (literal meaning) to sin is our default position.

We're told to not present our body as a tool for sin because it's what we've literally always done, not being able to stop it.

But then if we are not talking about the body wherein sin dwells, what is the "sin nature", and where does sin live? (Ala Romans 7)

Much love!
Mark