Truth7t7
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The Church is not prepared for what is to come.
- Thread starter David H.
- Start date
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well we could debate the seals but I do not see a profit in that. But I am a prewrather as well, but I find the timing much different. When Jesus opens the sixth seal this is proclaimed:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Also when ther sixth seal is opened, these events take place:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Which fulfills the prophecy in Joel:
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
also Paul in Thesselonians told us that the church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. Wrath in the bible from god is only in two ways: ! His anger towards sin, and 2 The 7 year tribulation which is called a timne of wrath many times in many ways in end times prophecy.
The lake of fire is never called wrath.
also the seventh trump is not the last trump Paul speakso of in corinthians. As all the feasts of Israel were types and shadows and have their ultimate fulilment either in Jesus, the church or in the Millenial kingdom, the answer lies there.
In the feast of trumpets, there is 100 trumpets blasts divided into three sections. 1. 90 blasts in quick staccato fashion. 2. 3 sets of three blasts of moderaste duration. 3. the 100th blast. the trumpeter would take his deepest breath and blow in the shofar for as long as he could. This trumpet tone is called "tekiah gedolah" in Hebrew and in English is called the great rump or the last trump. I am convinced that this is the fulfilment of the trumpet. and not the 7th trumpet of judgment blown from heaven and God pouring wrath out on the earth.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I believe there will be martyrs for the faith after the rapture and before the antichrist at the midpoint calls for all out genocide against believers and Jews.
I expect so! I expect times are going to get very bad, right up til when they become completely horrible. But I don't see the multitude being these martyrs. I see the martyrs after the rapture in . . .
Revelation 15:2 KJV
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Much love!
This is something I look at also. Trying to prooftext from "last trump" leaves one having to choose which "last trump" is being mentioned.
Something I love about the "great trump" . . . After you blow and blow and blow as loud and long as you can, and you just can't blow anymore, you give one last burst of sound, signifying God's unending grace.
Much love!
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
As JOhn hadn't written Revelation when Paul worte 1 Cor. one has to make assumptions that God revealed the 7 trumpets in Revelation to Paul before He showed them to John and that paul kept them asecretexcept for the "last trump" Its not a big deal, but it does go to being a consitent exegeter of Scripture. Paul very well knew of the last rrump fo the feast, but had no clue as to the 7 trumpets.
Exactly, going with what we know, and not with what we don't.
I've come to think that the more one holds exactly to what is written, the more they will be in agreement with those who do the same. But those who interpret allegorically, or in metaphors, these will not only disagree with the those who don't, but they will also come to many different conclusions from each other, and will not be united in their understandings.
Much love!
Marvelloustime
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Sing and cling to the glorious King.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friends, the church, christendom, and, even some GRACE believers are so throughly Confused about God's simple "milk" doctrines of salvation, water baptism, speaking in tongues, etc., thus it would follow that they would not be prepared for the events found in God's Meat Doctrines of End Times, being the same = throughly Confused about those Also... 
TOPIC: the-church-is-not-prepared-for-what-is-to-come.
Matthew 25:v. 1 to 12
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they ALL -wise and foolish- slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (NOTE: He which has not oil now, he will not have time to have it from now on)
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
See, all who went to by oil out of the time, and all who were selling it lost their souls FOR EVER, yes, FOR EVER. This will FULFILL LITERALLY FROM NOW ON.
Matthew 25:v. 1 to 12
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they ALL -wise and foolish- slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (NOTE: He which has not oil now, he will not have time to have it from now on)
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
See, all who went to by oil out of the time, and all who were selling it lost their souls FOR EVER, yes, FOR EVER. This will FULFILL LITERALLY FROM NOW ON.
Bruce Atkinson
Active Member
I'm 'late' to this discussion, but will throw in my 2 cents worth...
As Ron Nolette indicated, Paul had no clue of the 7 trumpets. So, presumably, Paul is writing in regard to the last trump during the Feast of Trumpets.
I'll use 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 8:6 to disagree with both of those ideas:
1Ths 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV)
Paul writes of the trump of God, NOT the trump blown by men, which the Feast of Trumpets is.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (KJV)
It is the angels that are holding and blowing the trumpets, not God.
So, since it can neither be the Feast of Trumpets nor the trumpets in Revelation, what is it? I'll postulate it is still a secret (aka, mystery) known only to God per Deuteronomy 29:29.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Sadly even those who hold ot the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Too many of them have used too much allegorical reinterpretation to promote crazy ideas.
An example, one saint here who is a literalist has gone off the reservation to promote America as a major cog of end times measurtements.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the threads my brother! Hope your time will be enriching and challenging!
As all the feasts though actually and literally celebrated, were types and shadows according ot Hebrews, we need to look at each feast and see its fulfilment in NT times. Nearly all authors are in near unanimous agreement for six of the seven, but the feast of Trumpets is one left with much mystery and uncertainty.
I hasve become convinced that the feast of trumpets has its fulfilment in th erapture of the church.
The feast of trumpets is also known as Rosh shanah of the Jewish New Year and starts trhe ten day period that culminates in the day of atonement.
It was a day of holy convocation and gathering at the last trump. then the next tne days were known as the days of awe!
Now this next is all my opinion and it could be anywhere from 0 to 100% right. but I believe that teh rapture will occur on the day of the blowing of the last trump in Jerusalem in the rebuilt temple. It seems very fitting (from a human perspective) For th eTemple to be dedicated and God calling the church home. As Israel blows the "last Trump" of the feast of Tishrei, The Church hears the blast of Gods Trumpet blown by possibly Michael the Archangel. Then the church is in heaven to pass through the Bema Seat Jdgment to have her bad works burned away, her good works remain, crowns issued and robes given for our wedding to Christ in Rev. 19.
with us out of the way- god pours out His wrath on the earth for teh two reasons Scripture says He has the 7 year tribulation anyway: To prepare Israel as a nation to accept Jesus as Messiah and to punish the evildoers.
It's like the whole thing with Israel. "Replacement" theologies, including that the church is part of Israel, or is the new Israel, or whatever it is, these all came about because after Israel was scrubbed from the land, people couldn't believe that God could ever bring Israel back. And they had to find some way to understand all those passages about the future of Israel, so, allegory and such.
The ideas derived from that lack of faith have interwoven through much of eschatology. I've learned to start prophecy discussions with ecclesiology.
Much love!
Keraz
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Who is the real House of Israel?
A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. A decreed period; Ezekiel 4:4-6.
In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.
In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26
The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.
If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.
Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7
In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.
God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honor.
At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.
This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27
The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14
The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.
Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.
The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 6:11-13, Zephaniah 1:1-18, +
Greetings in Christ JESUS
All are now living in the heaven which now is, as I write below, including the red Dragon, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan e engana todo o mundo, a MONSTER of 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL extremelly satanic, where the dogs remain actives.
Interpreting the above description, 7 heads are 7 mountains, and 7 kings, the 10 horns are more 10 kings, the TAIL, the prophet Isaiah reveals and explains who are the TAIL - Isaiah 56:v.10-12.
Now see, despite the extreme unfavorable environment, GOD since the beginning and over the time has protected His people, all have been blessed with many blessings despite the unfavorable environment-Ephesians 1:v.3 to 7:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
But the heavens and the earth, which are now by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men-2 Peter 3:v.7. And the world of Devil will be DISSOLVED as a whole: 2 Peter 3:v.11 - Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,-
Revelation 11:v.15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world - world of Devil - are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
Consequences?
The nations will be angry, wrathed, and GOD's wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 11:v.18
JESUS said: Luke 20:v.35-36
35 But they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world -the next world-the Kingdom of GOD-, and the resurrection from the dead-Daniel 12:v.1-3 and 2Thes.4:v.15-16-the Archangel, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
God bless
Bruce Atkinson
Active Member
I’ll further my disagreement (or lack of understanding) that the rapture will happen at the end of the Feast of Trumpets.
In particular, I’m on the fence thinking that the ‘equating’ the 7 feasts of Israel to the Church is borderline replacement theory. At a minimum, I suspect those replacement theory folks make that a significant part of their reasoning that God permanently set Israel aside in 70AD.
Note that I’m not denying one bit that the 7 feasts clearly point to Christ, our savior. Having witnessed a Messianic Jew’s presentation of 'Christ in the Passover' in church 20+ years ago, there’s no denying the feasts are a ‘giant arrow’ pointing Israel to Jesus, the Christ. They are Jewish feasts, required under Mosaic Law.
Further, if the 7 feasts were of any importance to Gentile believers during Pauls’ ministry, wouldn’t he have written about them in his letters? He clearly warned about Judaisers’ attempts to get Gentile believers ‘under the law’ and/or ‘other gospels’. His bringing the feasts of the Mosaic law would be completely contradictory to the Gospel of grace. (As I understand it, some Christians ‘celebrate’ the feasts in various ways. Isn’t that akin to their following the law?)
After much thought since my post last night, I’ll add that I believe that neither the ‘trump of God’ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 nor the ‘last trump’ of 1 Corinthians 15:52 literally indicate a physical trumpet being blown. 1 Ths 4:16 gives this hint:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV)
Jesus said His sheep know His voice. So will the Lord gently call His sheep with ‘Come hither’ while the unsaved hear only noise like happened to Saul on the road to Damascus? Or will it be more like what John heard in Revelation 1:10?
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (KJV)
Are the trump(et)s referenced by Paul actually the Lords’ voice?
I’ll further throw in that the Song of Solomon 2:8-11 suggests that the Lord will come for His bride in spring:
The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
Maybe we’ll be gone next spring?
In truth, we don’t have a CLUE as to when the rapture will occur. Like the timing of Jesus’ 2nd coming, God is keeping it a secret until it happens (Deut 29:29).
In particular, I’m on the fence thinking that the ‘equating’ the 7 feasts of Israel to the Church is borderline replacement theory. At a minimum, I suspect those replacement theory folks make that a significant part of their reasoning that God permanently set Israel aside in 70AD.
Note that I’m not denying one bit that the 7 feasts clearly point to Christ, our savior. Having witnessed a Messianic Jew’s presentation of 'Christ in the Passover' in church 20+ years ago, there’s no denying the feasts are a ‘giant arrow’ pointing Israel to Jesus, the Christ. They are Jewish feasts, required under Mosaic Law.
Further, if the 7 feasts were of any importance to Gentile believers during Pauls’ ministry, wouldn’t he have written about them in his letters? He clearly warned about Judaisers’ attempts to get Gentile believers ‘under the law’ and/or ‘other gospels’. His bringing the feasts of the Mosaic law would be completely contradictory to the Gospel of grace. (As I understand it, some Christians ‘celebrate’ the feasts in various ways. Isn’t that akin to their following the law?)
After much thought since my post last night, I’ll add that I believe that neither the ‘trump of God’ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 nor the ‘last trump’ of 1 Corinthians 15:52 literally indicate a physical trumpet being blown. 1 Ths 4:16 gives this hint:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV)
Jesus said His sheep know His voice. So will the Lord gently call His sheep with ‘Come hither’ while the unsaved hear only noise like happened to Saul on the road to Damascus? Or will it be more like what John heard in Revelation 1:10?
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (KJV)
Are the trump(et)s referenced by Paul actually the Lords’ voice?
I’ll further throw in that the Song of Solomon 2:8-11 suggests that the Lord will come for His bride in spring:
The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
Maybe we’ll be gone next spring?
In truth, we don’t have a CLUE as to when the rapture will occur. Like the timing of Jesus’ 2nd coming, God is keeping it a secret until it happens (Deut 29:29).
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