The Church is not prepared for what is to come.

[marks]

I am used to the slings and arrows of fellow believers. comes with the relationship with jesus.

Having been on internet forums for the past 25 years or so, I've seen some of that go around. I really do wonder sometimes, when people persist in increasingly bad behavior, isn't that the proof they are not true? Some seem to grow in love, and some seem to grow in hate and division. And it makes me wonder.

But I just assume they are saved if they say they are, but encourage them to grow just the same. Sometimes, it's like dragging someone kicking and screaming.

 

[marks]

Lashon hara is not good! The church needs to learn about the power of our words!

I've learned a new term today!

Yep! I see lots of that!

Much love!

 

[marks]

where the Great tribulation precedes the rapture.

I think you've called yourself "pre-wrath", is that correct? Which part of the plagues of the Revelation, if any, do you consider to be God's wrath?

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I beg your pardon, but you most definitely need discernment!
Come down from your high horse, with your secret rapture theory!
Our deliverance shall be in the SAME DAY "when" Jesus is REVEALED from Heaven in Flaming FIRE.

As for "flaming fire" please notice my quoted words of "same day", "revealed", "fire" and "when" in the following verse:

Flaming Fire- Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the [that] day when the Son of man is revealed.

Now compare that with 2 Thes. 1:7-10, paying particuliar attention to the word "when":
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that [same] day.

Q. WHEN does Jesus deliver His Saints?
A. In the SAME day that He destroys the wicked. It' a simultaneous event!

Well your not so subtle ad-hominens aside... there is a rapture and when it occurs it will not be secret! Even insulting christians like you will be snatched up!

You have made God pulling out Lot and sending judgment teh same day a doctrine for timing which is wrong.
In the same book (Genesis) God had NOah make an Ark and brought him in the ark 7 days before He started judgment raining down.

and you must not have read the end of revelation! For the lost are not punished with everlastin punishment until right before eternity is established in Rev. 20. And chapters before we see saints in heaven rejhoicing so whoever taught you this is mistaken.

Also the grammar says for in that same day refers to when Jesus is glorified in the saints not the same day as judgment is cast.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What if you are wrong? Not saying this as an insult, But would it not be better to know all the ways the events "could" unfold so that you are not caught blindsided?

Well I have jsut started teaching a course on the end times in the church I attend and I am teaching people what will take place duering the 7 year tribulation. But After 35 years of teaching and comparing numerous opinions and reioniterpretatyions, I am more convinced now that the rapture is a pre- tribulational event. It takes too much playing twister with Scripture to make the rapture either non-existent or some other time frame.

 

[David H.]

I think you've confused the gathering of Israel with the gathering of those "in Christ". So then I'd like to ask you, what is the Sheep/Goats judgment? Exactly what it says? That when Jesus comes in glory, He takes His throne, and judges the nations as described?

And I disagree with this, because Paul also confirms this in 2 Thess. 2 where he says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the day of Christ and the rapture.

You shouldn't take offense at this. I'm only trying to help you!

I Quote more scriptures than most people do on this forum to back up my positions. When the plain text of scripture does not work i resort to other arguments, much like Paul did in appealing to the temple of the unknown god, Or his use of Socratic Philosophical arguments. I am not offended at your accusations, I am merely pointing out that they are false accusations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lashon hara is not good! The church needs to learn about the power of our words!

Well the church since pentecost has been comprised of sinners saved by grace, and our flesh loves to sneak out from time to time. But I agree, words do carry weight.

 

[David H.]

Well I have jsut started teaching a course on the end times in the church I attend and I am teaching people what will take place duering the 7 year tribulation. But After 35 years of teaching and comparing numerous opinions and reioniterpretatyions, I am more convinced now that the rapture is a pre- tribulational event. It takes too much playing twister with Scripture to make the rapture either non-existent or some other time frame.

Actually, the prewrath rapture comes from a simple reading of the text, and has multiple scriptural parallels and confirmations.

 

[marks]

Well I have jsut started teaching a course on the end times in the church I attend and I am teaching people what will take place duering the 7 year tribulation. But After 35 years of teaching and comparing numerous opinions and reioniterpretatyions, I am more convinced now that the rapture is a pre- tribulational event. It takes too much playing twister with Scripture to make the rapture either non-existent or some other time frame.

I've seldom found people on forums who are interested in truly looking at the matter. Inevitably I find where they are negating or ignoring various passages of Scripture. For instance, making the Sheep/Goats judgment a parable, or allegory, or they would try to make it the same as the great white throne judgment.

One of my favorite questions for someone who, for instance, says the rapture of those "in Christ" is the same as the gathering of "the chosen" in Matthew 24, is what they think about that prophecy, the sheep/goats judgment. Because you just cannot read it as is and come away and say the church is raptured in Matthew 24.

Well, actually, I have heard explanations like that, for instance, that Jesus sends His angels to gather the chosen, which includes catching up the living and dead "in Christ", and then all of these remain with Jesus in the sky, suspended between earth and heaven, while the trumpets and bowls all play out on the earth, and the gathering for armaggedon, 6-8 months I've heard speculated.

I find it all makes such good sense as written, I don't see the slightest need to change a thing!

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Having been on internet forums for the past 25 years or so, I've seen some of that go around. I really do wonder sometimes, when people persist in increasingly bad behavior, isn't that the proof they are not true? Some seem to grow in love, and some seem to grow in hate and division. And it makes me wonder.

But I just assume they are saved if they say they are, but encourage them to grow just the same. Sometimes, it's like dragging someone kicking and screaming.

Yeah but I also know we are still iving in bodies of sin and death and from time to time our sin leaks out. If God can forgive me and overlook my sin, I need to do the same with brothers and sisters. I do tend to throw my digs in though, which is a flaw on my part!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually, the prewrath rapture comes from a simple reading of the text, and has multiple scriptural parallels and confirmations.

Well it all depends when you accept the start of teh wrath. I see it at the opening of the sixth seal when it is announced th ewrath has arrived and I believe that the first six sealsd are all pre tribulational based upon what happens, what is said and many prophecies found in the OT about the tribulation.

 

[marks]

And I disagree with this, because Paul also confirms this in 2 Thess. 2 where he says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the day of Christ and the rapture.

No answer to my question?

I think you've confused the gathering of Israel with the gathering of those "in Christ". So then I'd like to ask you, what is the Sheep/Goats judgment? Exactly what it says? That when Jesus comes in glory, He takes His throne, and judges the nations as described?

OK.

Paul also confirms this in 2 Thess. 2 where he says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the day of Christ and the rapture.

Not so. Quote the Scripture. You have to make "that day" to be "our gathering together to the Lord", and that day is the day of Christ, the day that troubled them to come. Not the rapture. You've added that, not good.

Your interpetation would have them troubled over being told the rapture has come, and is now here. But that's neither good grammar nor a good understanding of the situation. We can work through the passage together if you like. This is a common misunderstanding, but can be addressed by exegetical analysis. Now, that doesn't have to sound "intellectually cold" to you, it's just to say, IF God said it, you'll see it there in the words.

Let me know if you want to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah but I also know we are still iving in bodies of sin and death and from time to time our sin leaks out. If God can forgive me and overlook my sin, I need to do the same with brothers and sisters. I do tend to throw my digs in though, which is a flaw on my part!

I have to be careful too! But yes, that's the bottom line. We've been forgiven, so, we aren't to hold anything against anyone.

Or, in the vernacular, there but for the grace of God go I! If we can have the humility to realize that. Not just say that, everyone says that. But to really know it.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Well it all depends when you accept the start of teh wrath. I see it at the opening of the sixth seal when it is announced th ewrath has arrived and I believe that the first six sealsd are all pre tribulational based upon what happens, what is said and many prophecies found in the OT about the tribulation.

My views on the seals are quite different than most, I believe the first five are already opened though they are restrained by the restrainer. They were opened when Christ ascended to heaven as Per Revelation 5. That being said the sixth seal is the next seal to be unsealed. But before that occurs there are the Olivet precursor events to occur which include the Great tribulation, which is the culmination of the fifth seal and the number of saints to be persecuted and killed as a testimony.

What You are doing is mixing the Wrath of the Lamb with the wrath of God. The wrath of the lamb is the judgement of the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) and is the Wheat and tares judgment.... this is evidenced by the fact that those who see the Lord coming will say to the rocks to fall on them for they will know their outcome for they have been rejected by the Lamb. The actual wrath of God follows this and though closely related are not the same thing.

As for my views on these things, I have moved from being a pretribber (And I still hope they are right), to being a prewrather/mid tribber. I see the rapture in Revelation 11:18, at the last trump.

 

[marks]

Well it all depends when you accept the start of teh wrath. I see it at the opening of the sixth seal when it is announced th ewrath has arrived and I believe that the first six sealsd are all pre tribulational based upon what happens, what is said and many prophecies found in the OT about the tribulation.

The trumpets and bowls are all called plagues. In the bowls God's wrath is completed.

I see the same as you, that the first six seals are pre-trib. I think the church is raptured to be seen in heaven as the innumerable multitude. Some object to that, can say that these are martyrs from later in the vision, but I take this book very sequentially. I think this is prophetic narrative, with parenthetical passages delineated.

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

In the USA, the majority of the population still identifies as Christian, even if only marginally so. Combine that with the highest rates of gun ownership in the world and you have the perfect makings of civil warfare.
The political left, having a strong foothold in government vocally disregard the threat, saying that any insurrection is doomed to "nuclear" failure, without regarding the truth that tactical nuclear weapons are politically indiscriminate.

We don't see anything representing the USA in eschatological scripture unless this nation has become representative of Babylon the great, so I'm inclined to believe that my nation will be effectively destroyed by warfare before or during the rise of the antichrist (but we certainly do bear some resemblance to ancient Rome and possibly are the most representative of "spiritual Babylon" in this moment of time.)

Isaiah 18 is a direct Prophecy about the USA.
The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath will badly affect America, but most will survive, initially at least.

 

[amigo de christo]

For me, it's about not leaning on my bank account, and jobs coming in, instead to have that feeling of inner reliance on God Himself, that whether the bank account is there or not, God is still here, and He is my helper.

If we can have that solid inner reliance on God Himself, I think we are more free with our things.

Much love!

Thats right mark . TRUST THOU IN GOD ALONE . Yes indeed my friend . Monies come and monies go and uncertain riches
cannot be trusted in . But the GLORIOUS LORD ALONE IS TO BE TRUSTED . Let the LORD be praised my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

The trumpets and bowls are all called plagues. In the bowls God's wrath is completed.

I see the same as you, that the first six seals are pre-trib. I think the church is raptured to be seen in heaven as the innumerable multitude. Some object to that, can say that these are martyrs from later in the vision, but I take this book very sequentially. I think this is prophetic narrative, with parenthetical passages delineated.

Much love!

This seems to be right my friend . Though i am not one hundred percent sure . All i know is what i read in revelation .
that the beast comes against the lambs . But that we DO NOT GO Under the wrath of GOD HIMSELF .
Now let the glorious King be praised . In fact let all that has breath , leap up and praise the Lord . Having no fear of man
or of death . JUST HAVING ALL HOPE IN THE LORD . That whether we live , suffer or die , we have all HOPE IN THE LORD and our END IS REAL GOOD in CHRIST .

 

[Truth7t7]

Puerto Rican statehood isn't a democratic agenda and is supported by many on "both sides of the aisle", but relies more on the will of the Puerto Rican people to be joined to the nation or recover their independence. Statehood is not universally desired by Puerto Ricans whose history has been one of enslavement and exploitation, but our nation is not inclined to give up strategic positions in potential global warfare. Statehood is by far the most likely way to resolve the disenfranchisement of the Puerto Rican people under the oppression of federal policy.

That was a nice story, but it Ain't gonna happen, the democrats want to add 2 liberal senate seats with Puerto Rico to maintain liberal control, Manchin nor Sinema are going to let it happen

Yes the liberals also want DC, and to break California up into 2 or more states, all for the additional liberal senate seats to maintain control

If the democrats had it their way, they would make Guantanamo Bay a state for senate seats, with the prisoners being given citizenship

 

[amigo de christo]

I have to be careful too! But yes, that's the bottom line. We've been forgiven, so, we aren't to hold anything against anyone.

Or, in the vernacular, there but for the grace of God go I! If we can have the humility to realize that. Not just say that, everyone says that. But to really know it.

Much love!

The LORD GOD has forgiven us a moutain of sins . Let all forgive any of their trespass . Do it like JESUS taught it .
Correct those who did the wrong and when they repent , amen you have restored one . Doing all with the hope that souls are saved .
Let the glorious Lord be praised .