The Covering Dynamic

[rwb]

Are you familiar with the many OT prophecies concerning the regathering of Israel to the promised land?

Much love!

Please show them. I don't find prophesy concerning a regathering of an ethnic people to the promised land after the promised Messiah has come???

 

[marks]

There are only two kinds of people at the gathering. They are the sheep on Christ's right or the goats on His left. This is inclusive of ALL the nations that have ever existed or ever shall exist upon the face of the earth throughout time. Those on His right hand are blessed of the Lord, and receive the Kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. Those on His left hand are told "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" When we consider the whole context of Matthew we find those on His right hand are those who in their lifetimes who have done good, and those on His left hand are those who throughout their lifetimes have done evil. When all mankind is gathered before God in judgment we shall be either the righteous on His right hand, or the wicked on His left. There is no other separation between the chosen for eternal life, and the nations who remain in unbelief.

The sheep and the goats are determined by their works concerning Jesus's brothers. So you have three groups of people, the sheep, the goats, and Jesus' brothers. Agree?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you familiar with the many OT prophecies concerning the regathering of Israel to the promised land?

I asked you a question first. I don't want to have a discussion where I am the only one who answers questions. If you are implying something about Matthew 24:31 based on your understanding of OT prophecies, that's one thing. But, don't try to say that we should accept the exact words of prophecies and then tell us how Matthew 24:31 should be interpreted when the exact words of Matthew 24:31 do not match what you're saying it means.

 

[rwb]

The sheep and the goats are determined by their works concerning Jesus's brothers. So you have three groups of people, the sheep, the goats, and Jesus' brothers. Agree?

Much love!

Sorry, but I find only two groups or kinds of people, with the sheep representing those who have done good during their lives and the goats as those who have done evil.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

one of the many reasons why pre-trib dispensationalism is a terrible belief system. They make up things that are not taught in scripture anywhere.

OK, I resemble that remark; so which of The ( almost 100 } Scriptures I used in my own study are:

Made Up and "not taught in Scriptures anywhere"?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

The implication being that "studying and believing God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided"
for His Approval is:

"a terrible belief system"?

Amen.

 

[Helen]

Very true, and in the rapture there is nothing that says He does this in front of the world.

So I fully agree, He came to earth once as a baby, born to die, and once as a King, to rule in power. Of course, Jesus had been here before. He visited Abraham, at the very least.

There is a terrestrial realm and celestial realm. Jesus comes to gather us to Him into the celestial realm while the earth-dwellers are being tested and proven. God took Enoch into the celestial realm. God took Elijah into the celestial realm. Why prohibit God from taking others into the celestial realm, if that is what He intends to do?

Much love!

Good one …

 

[marks]

Please show them. I don't find prophesy concerning a regathering of an ethnic people to the promised land after the promised Messiah has come???

Please be patient to read through the full passages I've posted here.

Ezekiel 39:22-29 KJV
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:17-28 KJV
17) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19) And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20) And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

And it goes on still from there.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

This is a direct parallel passage to the sheep/goats passage. "I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem", that means to restore them from their captivity. He will also gather the nations to judge them, concerning what they did concerning Israel.

Jeremiah 31:33-40 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch was taken by God and he will return to finish his witness against the fallen angels = Revelation
Elijah will join him.

These are the only two Prophets of God that were taken off the earth 'alive'.

Or Elijah is Enoch returned from heaven. Elijah has come several times. Once with Moses. Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses of the OT. There are 4 witnesses, not just 2. 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks.

Was Moses dead on the mount of Transfiguration?

 

[marks]

I asked you a question first. I don't want to have a discussion where I am the only one who answers questions. If you are implying something about Matthew 24:31 based on your understanding of OT prophecies, that's one thing. But, don't try to say that we should accept the exact words of prophecies and then tell us how Matthew 24:31 should be interpreted when the exact words of Matthew 24:31 do not match what you're saying it means.

This is preparatory to my answer. We are so far apart in how we read and understand the Bible. These things don't exist in a vacuum. The answers are in a number of places.

By the same measuer, you cannot show that the Matthew 24 prophecy includes those who are "In Christ", which is what the rapture concerns.

The dead "in Christ" will rise first, then we who are alive and remain, (that is, those "in Christ") will be caught up (raptured) with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Where in Matthew 24 tells us that this gathering is those who are "in Christ"? It doesn't.

But I don't think that kind of an argument is valid or useful myself.

I don't mind endeavoring to answer your question, but it's not just a matter of whether this or that word was used.

And this doesn't mean we don't hold to the exact words. Take, "elect", for example. God chose Israel from among all the other nations. Paul hadn't been saved, the only ones being addressed were the Jews, the chosen nation from among all the others. The chosen, and the nations. The Jews, and the Gentiles.

The Jews, Jesus' ethnic brothers, and the gentiles, divided left and right based on their works as concerning whether they cared for the needs of the Jews or not.

This is of course right after the devil goes to war against the woman, and the remnant of her seed. So while the dragon is trying to destroy Jesus' brothers, Here's the question for the gentiles. Will you risk your own life to care for God's chosen people in the face of the beast?

Much love!

 

[Keturah]

@marks @Spiritual Israelite @Keturah

Let us continue to walk in peace and the Holy Spirit, not give ourselves to personal jabs and remember that we are joyfully bound together in His Grace and Mercy.

Good Nite Brothers n Sisters in Christ

Hello David,

I don't think I have responded to this thread except by affirmation of statements made by posters through emojis......& watching

However I do understand what you are trying to express.....
We walk " IN THE LIGHT" of the spiritually revealed word of God as it is illuminated. Therefore, I get the term " covering".

If any claim to have FULL REVELATION of God's word, & walk "PERFECTLY" in it then I can & do question their statements!

Differences on theologies or interpretations other than salvation, such as the second coming, sinless perfection, self-righteousness, ect. ect. ARE IMPERFECT TO ME & up to individuals!

We ALL walk according to walking & being led of the Spirit, WHO IS PERFECT, but we are not. The flesh is in constant war with the Spirit & OUR spirit is willing but OUR flesh is weak, therefore we walk imperfectly !

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

NIV? That's going to be a problem. To many "loose" and interpretive translations.

Oh brother. Is this going to devolve into a KJV vs. NIV debate? The Bible was not originally written in English. Neither the KJV nor the NIV are perfect, but they are both good translations. I use both. With that said, I see Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come in the KJV version of the passage as well. Except that he's called "Elias" there. That is the main reason I quoted the NIV. It's annoying to me that the KJV calls him "Elias".

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Is this saying anything different than what it's saying in the NIV translation? No, not at all. In each translation, Jesus is saying that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come. There's a reason why Jesus said "if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.". He knew that people like you would have trouble accepting that. But, we should always accept what Jesus teaches.

Matthew 17:10-12 KJV
10) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Elijah's ministry is not complete. "Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things." Did he? Restore all things? Or did they kill him first?

First of all, why did you not quote Matthew 11:11-14 where Jesus explicitly said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come?

And why did you not highlight where Jesus said in Matthew 17:12 "I say unto you, that Elias is come already"? That should be our starting point. Jesus said Elijah already came and gave no indication that he failed to finish what he came to do. You talk often about taking things for exactly how they are written. How are you doing that here? You're saying "Elijah's ministry is not complete". Where did Jesus say that? The concept of Elijah having to come yet again to finish his job after he already came is not indicated in the text at all.

Accepting what Jesus said, which is that Elijah already came, should make us think a bit harder about what it means for Elijah to "restore all things" instead of taking that literally to mean literally restoring literally all things. So, let's look at the original prophecy to see what Elijah was supposed to come and do since that should give us insight into what things needed to be restored.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

I would assume that you understand that the messenger referenced in Malachi 3:1 is Elijah.

So, what Elijah was supposed to do is prepare the way for the Lord and "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers". Did John the Baptist fail to accomplish this? No!

Look at this passage:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The angel talking to John the Baptist's father Zechariah said that John would turn "many of the children of Israel...to the Lord their God". Did he fail to do that? No! He did just that. And the angel also said regarding John the Baptist: "he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

As you can see the angel quoted Malachi 4:5-6. Did John fail to "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". No, he did not. He did turn many to the Lord while he prepared the way for Jesus. He restored many people's relationships with God through his powerful preaching. That is what he came to do. When it says he was to come to restore all things it's talking about restoring all things related to what he was sent to do, not restoring literally all things. That is the context of the prophecy.

Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Do you think God will fulfill this prophecy concerning Elijah?

He already did as I explained above.

To me this is the same lines as with Jesus Himself. They killed John, and they killed Jesus. Had they received Jesus as Messiah, they would have accepted John as the bridegroom, preparing the bride.

Scripture indicates that Jesus accomplished everything He came to do. That's why one of the last things Jesus said while He was on the cross was "It is finished". That was not dependent on what people did in response. He finished what He came to do. Likewise, John the Baptist, the Elijah to come, accomplished everything he came to do.

Just like Jesus. He did come, and they killed Him. He's coming again, and will be wed to His bride. Elijah, in John the Baptist, he was sent from God, and they killed him. He will be sent again, and will prepare the bride.

He shall come, and he has come, Jesus said both of these. The NIV kind of obscures that.

No, it doesn't, but that's all I'm going to say about that. I'm not going to get into a NIV vs. KJV debate with you. Especially when I use both and don't find one to be superior to the other. Neither are perfect, as I said.

I find that to be the case in that translation in many places, so I don't use it. I prefer the more literal translations, not interpretive.

"shall restore all things" is from a Future Tense verb, still yet to happen, even though John the Baptist was already dead.

And yes, I believe that exactly as written. Do you?

Can you please stop the "exactly as written" arguments? You don't even follow that consistently yourself. If you follow what Jesus said about the Elijah to come exactly as written then you would believe that Elijah has already come to do what he was sent to do, but you don't believe that. So, I can't take your "exactly as written" arguments seriously.

But, to answer your question, I do take it exactly as written in terms of the tense. Jesus was not giving a new prophecy there about something that would happen in the future. Do you understand that? He was referencing an OT prophecy. So, what He was saying is that, yes, the prophecy does say that Elijah would come to restore all things. But then He clarified that Elijah had already came in the person of John the Baptist.

 

[David in NJ]

Hello David,

I don't think I have responded to this thread except by affirmation of statements made by posters through emojis......& watching

However I do understand what you are trying to express.....
We walk " IN THE LIGHT" of the spiritually revealed word of God as it is illuminated. Therefore, I get the term " covering".

If any claim to have FULL REVELATION of God's word, & walk "PERFECTLY" in it then I can & do question their statements!

Differences on theologies or interpretations other than salvation, such as the second coming, sinless perfection, self-righteousness, ect. ect. ARE IMPERFECT TO ME & up to individuals!

We ALL walk according to walking & being led of the Spirit, WHO IS PERFECT, but we are not. The flesh is in constant war with the Spirit & OUR spirit is willing but OUR flesh is weak, therefore we walk imperfectly !

i included your name because of the witness of the Holy Spirit inside you just as you demonstrated here in your post.

So, please take this as a compliment and a blessing AND a Thank You

 

[marks]

The Day of the Lord is not just one day, but is the whole Messianic age of God's grace.

Yes, there seems to be a lot of debate over what the Day of the LORD encompasses. Isn't the Day of the Lord a day of darkness? Something not to be desired?

Isaiah 13:9 KJV
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremiah 46:10 KJV
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Amos 5:18-20 KJV
18) Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19) As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oh brother. Is this going to devolve into a KJV vs. NIV debate?

No. I just prefer more literal translations, particularly in these sorts of discussions. I myself like the King James, based on many years of comparisons to numerous other translations and manuscripts. But I'm not King James only, I use lots of interlinears, I refer to several different translations.

But when you compare this passage in the NIV to the Greek text, or to other more literal translations, there are some difference which I think change the sense of the passage.

I like NASB, HCSB, LITV, Young's, EMTV, and of course KJV. These are my favorites. I think the NLT (2nd edition, not the 1st) is a good "thought for thought" translation, or "dynamic equivalancy". But as a stand-alone, it loses a lot, and should be read alongside a literal version.

Please try not to read into my words more that what I'm actually saying. I'm just saying, if you are quoting from the NIV, it's not going to show all the information a more literal and less interpretive translation will show. And that passage from Matthew is a good example.

Much love!

 

[Keturah]

i included your name because of the witness of the Holy Spirit inside you just as you demonstrated here in your post.

So, please take this as a compliment and a blessing AND a Thank You

Thank you for your faith in my testimony. Blessings upon you & your household, brother!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is preparatory to my answer. We are so far apart in how we read and understand the Bible. These things don't exist in a vacuum. The answers are in a number of places.

How about this then. Can you please stop the "exact words" arguments already? You don't interpret Matthew 24:31 according to the exact words written there, you interpret it according to your understanding of OT prophecies. Right? If you're going to use this "exact words" argument then be consistent with it. Otherwise, stop using it. The fact of the matter is that not all prophecies are just spelled out for us in a straightforward way. So, please stop acting as if that is the case.

By the same measuer, you cannot show that the Matthew 24 prophecy includes those who are "In Christ", which is what the rapture concerns.

Of course. Things aren't always spelled out for us so we all use other scripture to help us understand any given verse or passage. It's called interpreting scripture with scripture.

However, if you look at the parallel passage to Matthew 24:29-31 from Mark 13 then you can see similarities to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 in terms of who are the ones being gathered. I will explain what I mean by that.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that it talks about the elect being gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". So, they are being gathered from both heaven and earth. Now, let's look at this:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice in verse 14 that it says those who sleep in Jesus will be with Him when He comes. That's the dead in Christ. That is something Paul had already alluded to a little bit earlier in his letter:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

So, this is the gathering of the elect from heaven that Jesus talked about in the Olivet Discourse. The souls of the dead in Christ will be coming with Him and will unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. The gathering of the elect from the earth are those who are alive and remain along with the resurrected dead in Christ.

The dead "in Christ" will rise first, then we who are alive and remain, (that is, those "in Christ") will be caught up (raptured) with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Where in Matthew 24 tells us that this gathering is those who are "in Christ"? It doesn't.

But I don't think that kind of an argument is valid or useful myself.

You are making what is called an argument from silence. I could use this type of argument to say that Matthew 24:29-31 is a different coming of Christ than is described in Revelation 19:11-21 since they don't have all the same details. Would you find that to be a valid argument?

Not every passage that relates to the second coming of Christ has all the same details. That is obvious. So, just because one passage has details not found in another doesn't mean they can't be related.

Also, in NT scripture "the elect" refer to those who are in Christ. I can give you examples if you need that, but I will assume you already know this.

And this doesn't mean we don't hold to the exact words. Take, "elect", for example. God chose Israel from among all the other nations. Paul hadn't been saved, the only ones being addressed were the Jews, the chosen nation from among all the others. The chosen, and the nations. The Jews, and the Gentiles.

The Jews, Jesus' ethnic brothers, and the gentiles, divided left and right based on their works as concerning whether they cared for the needs of the Jews or not.

This is of course right after the devil goes to war against the woman, and the remnant of her seed. So while the dragon is trying to destroy Jesus' brothers, Here's the question for the gentiles. Will you risk your own life to care for God's chosen people in the face of the beast?

You completely lost me here. Are you somehow not aware that both Jew and Gentile Christians are the elect? God's chosen people...do you not think you are one of them? I know I am.

Who do you think Paul was referring to here:

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Do you not think you are among God's elect that no one make any charge/accusation against?

 

[marks]

It's annoying to me that the KJV calls him "Elias".

I know what you mean. That's the KJV being faithful to the Greek, since that's how the Koine Greek names Elijah. So rather than substitute the name to which we all know it refers, it remains faithful to the NT text in saying Elias. That's one of the reasons I like this translation, it doesn't try to "fix" the text.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As an idealist of course you don't see the point. Paul clearly pointed out the reality of his generation, and idealism does not always work out in reality. Then you get offended when we say you are being offensive. The ideal result is that the Jews and Gentiles would equally join hands and get along with each other in Christ.

But Paul pointed out that the Jews were branches cut off, and that the fulness of the Gentiles would come in. Not that the Gentiles had a seperate relationship with God. You are missing the point that the Jews would be blinded and have a harder time, just like the Gentiles were formerly blinded and had a hard time in the OT. Not that it was totally impossible for both since Abraham until now. The connection in the OT was physical because it revolved around the economy of the Law. But salvation, grace , and faith have never changed since God punished Adam and Eve. The working out of Salvation was now internal and individual, instead of corporate and outward.

It is called the Gentile church because Israel is blind, just like it was the Israel church in the OT, because the Gentiles were blind. Both could enter freely at all times. If the Gentile church today referred to Israel as dogs like the Jews considered Gentiles to be in Paul's day, the admonition would still be the same, that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. No one should be looked down upon as a dog.

The point about no difference between Jews and Gentiles was not something new, God introduced as a phenomenon. That was a reprimand to those who think they see a distinction when none exists. We can call it the Gentile church without distinction, if you can call the church spiritual Israel without distinction, since Jacob. The church was never about a physical dead flesh connection. It was how God had a relationship with those willing to "crucify" Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church has always been a Gentile harvest. Israel was supposed to change the world. They had their ups and downs. Israel was the caretaker of the field. Now all have been made caretakers. But there was never a distinction in who the harvest was.

As an idealist you miss the point in this verse:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Is that not the nation of Gentiles? Not a nation of specific Gentiles. Jesus said it would be taken from Israel and given to Gentiles. You call that spiritual Israel. I just see that as now Gentiles are the caretakers not just Israel. Thus a Gentile church, no longer of Israel. But as caretakers, not the harvest. The harvest has always been both Israel and Gentiles.

Again, there is no such thing as a Gentile church. The church consists of both Jew and Gentile believers as is stated in scripture many times. Scripture says Jew and Gentile believers are "one body" (Eph 2:16;4:4) and "fellowheirs" (Eph 3:6) with Israelite believers. Everything you're saying here contradicts that. The kingdom of God was not taken completely away from Israel and given to the Gentiles as you're saying. It was only taken away from Israelite unbelievers like the Pharisees and scribes and given to Israelite and Gentile believers only. You are trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as "one body" and "fellowheirs". You should not be doing that.

 

[rwb]

Please be patient to read through the full passages I've posted here.

Ezekiel 39:22-29 KJV
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:17-28 KJV
17) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19) And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20) And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

And it goes on still from there.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

This is a direct parallel passage to the sheep/goats passage. "I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem", that means to restore them from their captivity. He will also gather the nations to judge them, concerning what they did concerning Israel.

Jeremiah 31:33-40 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Much love!

As a nation Israel went into captivity for 70 years just as the prophets were told they would. Their captivity ended just as the prophet foretells it would, and Jerusalem and the Temple were re-built. This is not prophesy to come, but is historical record of prophesy that was fulfilled. After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, there is no prophesy that speaks of the ethnic people, called Israel being gathered together again by God on this earth. In fact the New Testament indicates that God is now, since the coming of Christ, gathering together His people who are neither Jew nor Greek, but are the Israel of God to be His holy people called Christians.

According to Acts the prophesy of Joel began to be fulfilled with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. And his prophetic words will be finished when Christ comes again when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know what you mean. That's the KJV being faithful to the Greek, since that's how the Koine Greek names Elijah. So rather than substitute the name to which we all know it refers, it remains faithful to the NT text in saying Elias. That's one of the reasons I like this translation, it doesn't try to "fix" the text.

I was already aware of that. I'm not even saying it was wrong for them to do that as if I'm saying they translated something wrongly there. No, I'm just saying that it annoys me personally since his name was not Elias, but was Elijah. It's just a personal preference to see him being referenced as Elijah instead of Elias.