The creation of Eve

[bbyrd009]

Jesus still has a body. He didn't escape his flesh - this is a gnostic concept

hmm, got any Scripture for this? ty

 

[ScottA]

I thought it may be wise to let Christ speak for himself about his flesh that you believe he doesn't have.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

John 20:24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymusa], one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

This subject you have stumbled with is a very serious one. You have first belittled the importance of Eves creation and then you have erred in reference to one of the cornerstone understandings about Christ. I think you should re-examine the foundations of your understanding about God's word;

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The verses are good, but apparently you do not understand them.

1. Christ coming in the flesh, was a matter of "lowering" Himself. That is not the end game, however. Our confessing his coming, is our "belief" in Him and his plan for our salvation.
2. Christ showing himself as having been crucified showing the holes, etc. is proof of his "coming in the flesh." But it is not proof of him "going to the Father." God is spirit...and if you do not believe that Christ went to the Father "in spirit", then you do not believe that he went at all. In other words - of course he "came in the flesh", but it is also true that [of course] he also "went" in the spirit.
3. Transcending from our fallen fleshly state into the spirit of God - is our "reconciliation." Without it, there is no reconciliation: We must be born again of the spirit of God...we must put off the old man and become a new creation.

 

[aspen]

hmm, got any Scripture for this? ty

I can't think of a specific verse at the moment, but I know it is significant that Jesus was raised from the dead in the flesh. It disproves Gnosticism - doubting Thomas' account was included in the Gospels to make this point. Paul also speaks about receiving new bodies.

 

[bbyrd009]

I can't think of a specific verse at the moment, but I know it is significant that Jesus was raised from the dead in the flesh. It disproves Gnosticism - doubting Thomas' account was included in the Gospels to make this point. Paul also speaks about receiving new bodies.

so, reincarnation?

i mean, if transfiguration is interpreted literally

 

[aspen]

so, reincarnation?

No. I do not see any evidence of Reincarnation - the closest crazy idea I can see is that we are actually in Purgatory, right now. It explains past life ideas and supports Universalism

Note: 'crazy idea' part of the post, BoL

 

[bbyrd009]

how can Jesus have flesh, if we are the Body of Christ? I'm skeptible lol

 

[bbyrd009]

No. I do not see any evidence of Reincarnation - the closest thing crazy idea I can see is that we are actually in Purgatory, right now. It explains past life ideas and supports Universalism

Note: 'crazy idea' part of the post, BoL

to that i would say that whenever or wherever you are, for the entire rest of your conscious existence, it will always be "right now," even then; and we are told that we cannot even imagine the future, one day at a time, etc.

as for purgatory now, there is a baptism of fire, surely.
Meshak, Shadrach, and Abed-nego etc.
faith must be refined with fire, testing.

it's easy to have faith when things are good, right?

 

[aspen]

to that i would say that whenever or wherever you are, for the entire rest of your conscious existence, it will always be "right now," even then; and we are told that we cannot even imagine the future, one day at a time, etc.

Agreed

 

[aspen]

how can Jesus have flesh, if we are the Body of Christ? I'm skeptible lol

Yeah, its a mystery. I think it is all way beyond our comprehension. Fun to think about though.

We are the body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. Lots of paradox when truth is beyond understanding that's for sure

 

[ScottA]

Jesus still has a body. He didn't escape his flesh - this is a gnostic concept

Don't be too quick to call names...

Yes, Jesus has a body - we are his body. But we "do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain."

As for "escaping" the flesh - He did not escape, but lowered Himself, died, and rose from the dead. We, if we are in the flesh, are the dead. But if alive, we are alive in the spirit.

 

[aspen]

Don't be too quick to call names...

Yes, Jesus has a body - we are his body. But we "do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain."

As for "escaping" the flesh - He did not escape, but lowered Himself, died, and rose from the dead. We, if we are in the flesh, are the dead. But if alive, we are alive in the spirit.

Categorizing a doctrine for what it is, is not name calling.

The word 'flesh' in the NT means 'worldly', it does not refer to our material body.

 

[ScottA]

Categorizing a doctrine for what it is, is not name calling.

The word 'flesh' in the NT means 'worldly', it does not refer to our material body.

What is your point then - that "Jesus didn't escape the 'world?'"

 

[KBCid]

Absolutely! He is risen...meaning, transcended from the flesh to be the same as God the Father: God is spirit. But do not think of that as less, but more. Because, God is fully capable to manifest in any form...but to lower Himself again - never!

Are we reading the same book?

1 Cor 15:12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Maybe Christ's own words will open your eyes;

Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son

It's going to be downright interesting to hear how you could possibly twist the above scriptures to mean what you are asserting.

Do you not understand what resurrection means? What is dead? only the body is dead, spirit cannot die.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Christ's dead body was brought back to life because Christ was given the power to be a life giving spirit.


1 Cor 15:45 "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

It should also be noted that if Christ's body... Genetic body did not resurrect then God could not keep this promise;

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

 

[aspen]

What is your point then - that "Jesus didn't escape the 'world?'"

My point is equating 'flesh' with our material bodies is a gnostic concept - that's it. Jesus didn't escape anything - he remained separated from flesh/worldliness, his entire life; yet he was also a perfect lover of all people - even calling himself 'son of man' (a regular guy)

 

[ScottA]

Are we reading the same book?

1 Cor 15:12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Maybe Christ's own words will open your eyes;

Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son

It's going to be downright interesting to hear how you could possibly twist the above scriptures to mean what you are asserting.

Do you not understand what resurrection means? What is dead? only the body is dead, spirit cannot die.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Christ's dead body was brought back to life because Christ was given the power to be a life giving spirit.


1 Cor 15:45 "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

It should also be noted that if Christ's body... Genetic body did not resurrect then God could not keep this promise;

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

Apparently not. You are reading the words, and I am not. But the words are spirit, and do not speak of glorifying the flesh, but of redeeming us from it.

 

[ScottA]

My point is equating 'flesh' with our material bodies is a gnostic concept - that's it. Jesus didn't escape anything - he remained separated from flesh/worldliness, his entire life; yet he was also a perfect lover of all people - even calling himself 'son of man' (a regular guy)

What's that got to do with Christ not building a corruptible temple?

 

[KBCid]

Apparently not. You are reading the words, and I am not.

Nice, you completely skipped answering anything in the post. Which essentially ends any form of constructive discussion since you assert you do not follow God's instruction;

Matt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

"That man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.--Not here alone, but throughout the Law, as in the Gospel, we are taught that life is to do the will of God. Our Saviour called that "My meat." What the visible means of subsistence may be is a secondary matter. Man's life is to do the will of God: "My commandments, which, if a man do, he shall even live in them." "He that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
But the special interest of these words arises from our Lord's use of them in the hour of temptation. He also was led forty days (each day for a year of the Exodus) in the wilderness, living upon the word of God. At the end of that time it was proposed to Him to create bread for Himself. But He had learnt the lesson which Israel was to learn; and so, even when God suffered Him to hunger, He still refused to live by His own word. He preferred that of His Father. "And the angels came and ministered unto Him." It is noticeable that all our Lord's answers to the tempter are taken from this exhortation upon the Decalogue in Deuteronomy 6-10."
Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

 

[bbyrd009]

My point is equating 'flesh' with our material bodies is a gnostic concept - that's it.

hmm, i always assumed that that is exactly what was meant, but i guess i see your point, if Jesus had flesh but did not sin.

 

[aspen]

hmm, i always assumed that that is exactly what was meant, but i guess i see your point, if Jesus had flesh but did not sin.

Interesting huh?

I tend to think Paul is equating 'flesh' with the 'Old Man', we are called to overthrow......our ego is the ultimate idol if we allow it to rule over us. And it is a cruel overlord.

 

[ScottA]

Nice, you completely skipped answering anything in the post. Which essentially ends any form of constructive discussion since you assert you do not follow God's instruction;

Matt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

"That man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.--Not here alone, but throughout the Law, as in the Gospel, we are taught that life is to do the will of God. Our Saviour called that "My meat." What the visible means of subsistence may be is a secondary matter. Man's life is to do the will of God: "My commandments, which, if a man do, he shall even live in them." "He that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
But the special interest of these words arises from our Lord's use of them in the hour of temptation. He also was led forty days (each day for a year of the Exodus) in the wilderness, living upon the word of God. At the end of that time it was proposed to Him to create bread for Himself. But He had learnt the lesson which Israel was to learn; and so, even when God suffered Him to hunger, He still refused to live by His own word. He preferred that of His Father. "And the angels came and ministered unto Him." It is noticeable that all our Lord's answers to the tempter are taken from this exhortation upon the Decalogue in Deuteronomy 6-10."
Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

I asserted no such thing - you simply misunderstand [again].

And...it is not okay to counter one scripture against another. I quoted Jesus saying that his word "is spirit." My only assertion was that that is why we do not agree...because you are looking at the scriptures in word only, and not discerning them spiritually.

But if you want to go back and restate any points you have, I would be happy to discuss them with spiritual discernment.