The Day Of Wrath.

[blessedhope]

And The coming day of wrath is actually a week of years, known as Daniel's 70th Week. (Dan. 9:24-27) We know that this was not already fulfilled by some event in the past, because it will be so terrible, that if God doesn't stop it Himself, no flesh would survive. When speaking this, Jesus was looking forward into time, and He stated it will be the very worst time in human history, trumping everything, even the great Noahic Flood. (Gen. 6, Matt. 24:21-22) According to Jeremiah 30:7-11, Daniel's 70th Week will serve two purposes, they are;

1. To punish and correct a rebellious nation of Israel.

2. To make an end of the nations of the world and bring an end to man's rule on the earth.

It begins with Christ's removal of His Church (1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-56), and proceeds as Christ triggers by opening, a series of judgments on the earth. It will conclude with His coming at Armageddon as He singularly destroys all the armies of the earth in one swift, terrible moment, while simultaneously casting the Antichrist and the False Prophet straight into the Lake of Fire. (Rev. 19:11-21)

The world, for the most part, sees Christ's sacrifice on Calvary's Cross as a failure and defeat. But as everyone will soon find out, that Christ, is the Stone cut without human hands, that will destroy all the kingdoms of the world all at once (Dan. 2:44-45). And then Christ's kingdom will fill the earth and He will rule and reign on the same planet He had been previously rejected, accused, beaten, and crucified in.

Christ must physically rule in the same place He was seemingly defeated in, and it is why this writer adamantly rejects the notion that Christ can only rule and reign in the unseen, spiritual realm as many of the major Eschatological positions claim. (Amillennialism, Preterism, Post-Millennialism) If Christ doesn't physically rule on the throne of David as was foretold by the Angel Gabriel (Luke 1:32-33), then Scripture has lied, since David's throne is not in Heaven, but on the earthly city of Jerusalem, Israel.

But we know Scripture has not lied, but will in fact be fulfilled at the culmination of time when Christ reenters human history to establish what the Father has already given Him from eternity past. (Psalm 2, Isaiah 2; 11, Zech. 12; 14) While the Church that Christ Himself is building (Matt. 16:20) will not be on the earth when God's judgments are being carried out, we will see and know because we will be with Christ when it happens. (Zech. 14:5, Jude 1:14, Rev. 19:14) His coming kingdom, will absolutely come.

"Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" - Revelation 11:15

 

[boldncourageous]

You state... And The coming day of wrath is actually a week of years, known as Daniel's 70th Week. (Dan. 9:24-27) We know that this was not already fulfilled... embolden mine.

Let's not start at the place where massive brainwashing has taken place, as to assume that everybody knows something about this super-scriptural teaching of man.

We know that Messiah the Prince (capitol M capitol P) came and died for the sins of the World and not for himself... Daniel 9:26.

Then, " the people of the prince (small p) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

After Jesus died, but not for Himself, history records that Titus made a covenant with the Roman Empire to end the Jewish rebellion. Titus' father became the Emperor of Rome and Titus the prince became emperor after him. The Roman-Jewish war lasted 7 years (one week). It started in 66 AD ended with the fall of Masada in 73 AD. In the middle of that week (7 years) he caused the sacrifice and oblation (offerings) to cease, by the desolation and total destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, in 70 AD. Today the sacrifice and oblation continue to be ended as prophesied in this verse. Scripture NEVER states that the temple will ever be rebuilt, nor does it state that the sacrifices and offerings will ever be allowed to continue.

Christ who became the sacrifice once and for all time, caused great a significance to happen to the physical temple at that time. The veil was ripped in two. As a result a new dispensation took place. Now our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. If Christ is seated in the thrown of your heart then you are His. However, if He is not, the thrown is vacant for another. 2 Thess. 2: 2b,3 "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." The temple is the heart of man... not some building. The building idea is the old dispensation which God Himself destroyed. The pretrib doctrine attempts to rebuild this old dispensation. Who cares that a construction project to rebuild the temple has been planned for eons... it's a distraction!

Wow! We are just getting started with you post, and haven't gotten past the first couple of lines.

A big problem with the rapture doctrine is that there is no foundational Scriptures to support the belief. The focus is the window dressings. They are all built upon assumptions. We all know.... know what? The assumptions that's been taught us by man. I'm not being mean... I'm being real!

 

[blessedhope]

And A big problem with the rapture doctrine is that there is no foundational Scriptures to support the belief>O my> how wrong you are.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Let's not start at the place where massive brainwashing has taken place, as to assume that everybody knows something about this super-scriptural teaching of man.

Records that Titus made a covenant with the Roman Empire to end the Jewish rebellion. The Roman-Jewish war lasted 7 years (one week). It started in 66 AD ended with the fall of Masada in 73 AD. In the middle of that week (7 years) he caused the sacrifice and oblation (offerings) to cease, by the desolatio and total destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, in 70 AD. Today the sacrifice and oblation continue to be ended as prophesied in this verse. Scripture NEVER states that the temple will ever be rebuilt, nor does it state that the sacrifices and offerings will ever be allowed to continue.

A big problem with the rapture doctrine is that there is no foundational Scriptures to support the belief. The focus is the window dressings. They are all built upon assumptions. We all know.... know what? The assumptions that's been taught us by man. I'm not being mean... I'm being real!

Talk about your brainwashing...
Ya know, when a commercial says a product doesn't do something bad, I know it has that affect.

1. Records do not reveal Titus making a covenant with many, and ostensibly that would be with the city as well.
2. Titus, who did destroy the city and the sanctuary some 40 years later, only points to the prince who shall come who then "prevails" a covenant with many.
3. Titus did not cease sacrifice and offering; that probably happened during the siege because the Zealots in Jerusalem were starving (and stealing people's food), so having the bread to offer, or even a lamb is doubtful.
4. Titus did not set himself up in the Temple proclaiming to be God.
5. Titus was unable to command his men to not further destroy the Temple after the Zealots started to burn it. Titus wanted to capture the Temple so as to take its treasure in for Rome as booty.
6. The FIRST Jewish Revolt, during the Pax Romana, (it didn't rate bad enough to break their time of peace) was from 67-70 A.D.
7. None of the desolations foretold for the one 'seven' can be said honestly to have happened during that first century siege, unless you're brainwashed...

So the Rapture is part of the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:31, and Paul mentions quite a bit as well in 1Th 4:16-17 and 1Co 15:51-52. John writes of the revelation of Jesus to us in Rev 14:14-16 of the Harvest, which is yet another word used for the Rapture.

Saying the Rapture is not in Scripture is therefore a man-made contrivance.

 

[keras]

There is no scripture that actually says that God will take His people to live with Him in heaven at any time. This idea is a man-made contrivance.
There are several scriptures that say live humans will never go to heaven and saying such a thing as a rapture is in the Olivet discourse, is just a false theory and none of the scriptures referenced by Marcus say, or even infer such an important event as a removal to heaven will happen.
I have posted this article before, but a repeat is in order:

Do humans ever go to heaven?
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.
Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."
All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.
The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.
Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.
Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
Christians use such terminology all the time. Preachers use it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?
The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.
There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4
Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal at Christ's return in glory, when the resurrection of the righteous saints takes place. See John 5: 25-29; 1 Cor. 15; 1Thess. 4: 16; and John 6: 37-39.

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in
another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23
Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16
Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return when the saints are resurrected. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.
Yes, again Paul says we look to, wait, hope for Christ's Return and the resurrection.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36
Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[boldncourageous]

And A big problem with the rapture doctrine is that there is no foundational Scriptures to support the belief>O my> how wrong you are.

2 Tim. 2:23 "But refuse foolish and ignorant speculation, knowing that they produce quarrels."
It is very obvious that quarrels have risen concerning this topic in the church.
If the church were to actually take a stand against speculation and assumption, the pre-trib view would cease to exist. There isn't a single argument from the doctrine that isn't birth in assumption and speculation.

For example let's consider John 14:3:
I go to prepare a place for you... Yep, we both agree He's is doing that currently.
I will come again, and receive you unto myself;... We both understand He's talking the harpazio/gathering together with Him.
that where I am, there ye may be also. We both know that He is in the clouds/air and from this point on, we are forever with Him.

Where the quarrels come is where He is going from this point. The pretrib view states emphatically that He is returning to heaven. Yet, there is no Scripture to back that claim.... therefore that claim remains an assumption*. You and I both know that there are dead saints in heaven currently, yet the view can offer no Scripture to suggest the "raptured" are there as well. Therefore, that too remains an speculation.

Scripture does, however, offers a different picture.... Acts 1:9-12.
We know that Jesus informed us that we would see Him return in the manner in which He went.
We know that Jesus left from the Mount of Olives, to the clouds, to heaven, in that order, and we are told He will return in like manner.
We know from Zech. 14:4,5 that He will return to the Mount of Olives with ALL of His saints.
If He returns in like manner, then He will return from heaven (with ten thousands of His saints (Jude 14, Rev. 19:14, 1 Thess. 3:10-13)) to the clouds (where we, which are alive and remain, meet Him in the air (Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Thess. 4:16,17)) to the Mount of Olives (with ALL of His saints Zech. 14:4,5) A trip back to heaven for the interim is total speculation and super-scriptural.

Acts 1 teaches the same view as Matt. 24. How much of the Word are you going to delete so that it no longer applies to you (If Matt. 24 is for the Jews, then Acts 1 must be also)? Peter who is call a "rock" by Jesus and told that on this rock I will build my church. Peter teaches the "church" the message of the "second coming" in 2 Peter 3:10-18, not a conjured "rapture." Then he goes on to state that from Paul's writings in the context of eschatology, people conjure up false teachings and twist the Word as they always do... then calls them "wicked."

The entirety of the pretrib doctrine is built upon assumptions, speculation, opinion and conjecture. Any Scripture used for support of it is just that "SUPPORTIVE." Supportive of assumptions, speculation, opinion and conjecture. There isn't a single foundational verse that actually exists to support the view. Yes, I made the accusation, that you now quote.... yet... my accusation remains. You have no FOUNDATIONAL Scripture to substantiate your view. The beauty of post-trib view is that you don't have to twist the Word, just take the simple truth of it.

 

[boldncourageous]

1. Records do not reveal Titus making a covenant with many, and ostensibly that would be with the city as well.
2. Titus, who did destroy the city and the sanctuary some 40 years later, only points to the prince who shall come who then "prevails" a covenant with many.
3. Titus did not cease sacrifice and offering; that probably happened during the siege because the Zealots in Jerusalem were starving (and stealing people's food), so having the bread to offer, or even a lamb is doubtful.
4. Titus did not set himself up in the Temple proclaiming to be God.
5. Titus was unable to command his men to not further destroy the Temple after the Zealots started to burn it. Titus wanted to capture the Temple so as to take its treasure in for Rome as booty.
6. The FIRST Jewish Revolt, during the Pax Romana, (it didn't rate bad enough to break their time of peace) was from 67-70 A.D.
7. None of the desolations foretold for the one 'seven' can be said honestly to have happened during that first century siege, unless you're brainwashed...

You state: "Titus did not set himself up in the temple proclaiming to be God...."

Did Titus need to do that? Absolutely not!

2 Thess. 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This verse speaks of the anti-christ. Titus was not the anti-christ. (Often the rapture doctrine confuses the 70 AD event of the destruction of the temple with a futuristic anti-christ.)

The temple was destroyed. That building was required for the old dispensation.

Today, in our dispensation, our bodies are the temple... If God is seated in your heart, then you are God's child.
To suggest (as the rapture doctrine does) that the anti-christ will be seated in a building/temple rather than our bodies is to ignore the veil that torn in two. It belittles what Christ did for us. It ignores the true temple, our bodies, and focuses on the old dispensation that has passed away through the work of the cross.
The Word of God never states that a physical temple will be rebuilt. That is an assumption and false doctrine, not to mention a distraction. The rebuilding of the temple may or may not happen, if it does, it will only be for a distraction from where the true focus lies, the hearts of men.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Where the quarrels come is where He is going from this point.

I'm going to call you on starting a quarrel.
You presume you're right, and now want to silence another.

The pretrib view states emphatically that He is returning to heaven. Yet, there is no Scripture to back that claim.... therefore that claim remains an assumption*.

Not so.

Mt 13:30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Mt 13:38 and the field is the world;

This leaves the barn as not of this world.
(Do not confuse the second Resurrection reference in verse 41 when the wicked are eliminated from the Kingdom - which encompasses both this world and the next - by being thrown into Hell.)

In John 14, Jesus promises to come back for the Church and take them to where He is going to go: Heaven.

1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (That place is IN Heaven.) 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. (In Heaven.) 4 And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." And the Father is IN Heaven.

The Great Multitude, who are gathered on the Day of the Lord (sixth Seal) are then shown before the Father's Throne in Heaven as introduced and reported by John in chapters 4 and 5.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

So there is Scriptural reference for saying our inheritance is in Heaven.

Paul makes the distinction we will have when we are lifted up and taken there as being the difference between earthly things and spiritual things.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became A living soul." The last Adam became a life- giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

To suggest (as the rapture doctrine does) that the anti-christ will be seated in a building/temple rather than our bodies is to ignore the veil that torn in two. It belittles what Christ did for us.

To suggest that a Temple cannot be built based on your faith is to ignore that the Jews don't give a flip about the book of Hebrews and your spiritual basis for seeing us as idealized temples.

 

[boldncourageous]

Saying the Rapture is not in Scripture is therefore a man-made contrivance.

The very word "rapture" for the use of eschatology was first coined by John Darby. That is a fact. The Word itself...."rapture" ....to describe "a" return of Christ.

I am in no way stating that John Darby came up with the idea of multiple returns of Christ. Rather, I am stating that he needed a word to describe "another" return than the terminology of "second coming." The word "rapture" was coined with the intent to divide the return of Christ into two.... a first, "rapture", and a second coming.

Today the word "rapture" doesn't have a solid meaning. I use it as John Darby coined it. As a conjured event 7 years prior to the second coming. Harpazio, our gathering together, with Him, ect. are all a singular event... the second coming.

 

[boldncourageous]

I'm going to call you on starting a quarrel.
You presume you're right, and now want to silence another.


Not so.

Mt 13:30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Mt 13:38 and the field is the world;

This leaves the barn as not of this world.
(Do not confuse the second Resurrection reference in verse 41 when the wicked are eliminated from the Kingdom - which encompasses both this world and the next - by being thrown into Hell.)

In John 14, Jesus promises to come back for the Church and take them to where He is going to go: Heaven.

1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (That place is IN Heaven.) 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. (In Heaven.) 4 And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." And the Father is IN Heaven.

The Great Multitude, who are gathered on the Day of the Lord (sixth Seal) are then shown before the Father's Throne in Heaven as introduced and reported by John in chapters 4 and 5.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

So there is Scriptural reference for saying our inheritance is in Heaven.

Paul makes the distinction we will have when we are lifted up and taken there as being the difference between earthly things and spiritual things.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became A living soul." The last Adam became a life- giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Wow! Did you even read what you are responding to? Try again!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The very word "rapture" for the use of eschatology was first coined by John Darby. That is a fact. The Word itself...."rapture" ....to describe "a" return of Christ.

Error! Darby, your boogie man, did not coin the term.

The word ‘rapture’ comes from the Latin word rapio. It is just the Latin translation of the Greek verb harpazo which Paul uses in 2CO 12:2, 4 and 1TH 4:17. Idiosyncrasies of translation confuse a search of the term Rapture in the English and from the underlying Greek. It is only when an intervening step of translating the Greek into Latin and then into English can it be understood from where this word came into the English lexicon.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Wow! Did you even read what you are responding to? Try again!

Do you? Try again.

Jesus returns to Heaven on the Day of the Lord delivering us, and again when He is done trampling out His Wrath - which also occurs on the Day of the Lord (first Trumpet).

Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 " I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 "I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

 

[boldncourageous]

I'm going to call you on starting a quarrel.
You presume you're right, and now want to silence another.


Not so.

Mt 13:30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Mt 13:38 and the field is the world;
Did you notice the word "First" that means that the tares are harvested/reaped first. Interesting that the wheat is removed/gathered... AFTERWARDS in this passage! Clearly not a "rapture" event, but rather the "second coming" Better scratch that Scripture as a "rapture" reference. ....the rapture event is not in the Word.

This leaves the barn as not of this world.
(Do not confuse the second Resurrection reference in verse 41 when the wicked are eliminated from the Kingdom - which encompasses both this world and the next - by being thrown into Hell.)

In John 14, Jesus promises to come back for the Church and take them to where He is going to go: Heaven.

1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (That place is IN Heaven.) 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. (In Heaven.) 4 And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." And the Father is IN Heaven. I noticed YOUR black ink... To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Of course, Jesus is currently in heaven and those who He was talking to are also there (except for Judas and the like). I imagine they are indeed enjoying those dwelling places that have been prepared for them. Those saints who have now died are with the Lord, but their physical bodies are corrupted and rotting in the grave. Jesus body never saw corruption... see Acts 2:31. However, at the resurrection, the dead saints will again have their earthly bodies. They will be changed at a moment in the twinkling of an eye. They will be changed from corruption to incorruptible bodies.... 1 Cor. 15:42-54. In heaven there aren't any earthly physical bodies. When John was told to "come up here" Immediately he was in the spirit... not a physical rapture event. The mortal will be changed to immoral, which is the same nature in which Adam had prior to the fall. Is. 65:20 speaks of this longevity. When Jesus returns and rules and reigns for 1000 years, He will have all of His saints with Him.... two types, those who were dead with incorruptible bodies, and those who hadn't not seen death with immortal bodies. If the dead hadn't received again a physical body, then they would be roaming around as a disembodied spirit or ghost.

The Great Multitude, who are gathered on the Day of the Lord (sixth Seal) are then shown before the Father's Throne in Heaven as introduced and reported by John in chapters 4 and 5.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.".....What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation....

So there is Scriptural reference for saying our inheritance is in Heaven. WoW, this response show that you didn't read my post.... Yep these are dead dudes, who's number has not yet been fulfilled. Your assumption is that these are raptured prior to the great tribulation, but no, these are those who are dead because of the great tribulation. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The rapture doctrine only has assumption, opinion, speculation and conjecture to produce their doctrine. The verb tense in this passage for "came" is ongoing and continual. In other words they are still coming. The martyrs number in the 5th seal is not yet complete as stated in Rev. 6:9-11.

Paul makes the distinction we will have when we are lifted up and taken there as being the difference between earthly things and spiritual things.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became A living soul." The last Adam became a life- giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Perishable and imperishable.... corruptible and incorruptible, the context is clearly about the physical body. One is speaking of the living and the other of the dead. Jesus physical body did not see corruption in the grave. In otherwords it did not rot and decay. Paul's speaking of the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body. The heavenly is spiritual in nature. We have a physical body and a spiritual body. To be dead and absent from the physical body is to be present in our spiritual/heavenly body and with the Lord in heaven. However, we will not all sleep/die. When He comes we will be changed. The dead will again get a physical body that doesn't rot and decay, and those who are alive and remain will get a body that is returned to the state of Adam prior to the fall. This passage is indeed worth of study, and a distinction between the dead and living needs to be observed. Do not confuse the dead with the living. Both are addressed. My question to you is, at the time of the resurrection, why all of a sudden does the dead need again a physical earthly body when their spiritual/heavenly body has been working for them so well since they died?

 

[boldncourageous]

Error! Darby, your boogie man, did not coin the term.

The word ‘rapture’ comes from the Latin word rapio. It is just the Latin translation of the Greek verb harpazo which Paul uses in 2CO 12:2, 4 and 1TH 4:17. Idiosyncrasies of translation confuse a search of the term Rapture in the English and from the underlying Greek. It is only when an intervening step of translating the Greek into Latin and then into English can it be understood from where this word came into the English lexicon.

harpazo is used 13 times in the new testament.... how true that it only refers to being taken (gathered together) to the Lord once in the Word. That doesn't change the fact that Darby needed a word to segregate the return of Christ into two and first popularized the word by using it in his book "the Secret Rapture." Your claims are starting to be annoying. You just make them without offering any proof. You cannot provide any proof to you claim that the word "rapture" was ever used prior to Darby.

 

[keras]

Good stuff, Boldandcourageous!
I have found you need to be as your name says, to argue against false teaching, as people who hold to such things, especially the 'rapture to heaven'- with its nice premise, get quite agitated and I have been verbally abused and even physically threatened when I refute such un-Biblical nonsense.

As you correctly say, those who promote a rapture to heaven, use speculation and read into scriptures inferences that are not intended. But the two best arguments against this false and Satanically inspired doctrine are:
1/ Jesus said: no one goes to heaven except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Father, I pray not that You take them out of this world, but keep them from the evil one. John 17:15
2/ What IS actually promised to all who believe in God and have accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus; is to be transported to and live in all of the holy Land, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, that will clear and depopulate the entire Middle East region. Ezekiel 34:11-31 puts it best. Psalm 69:35-36
That is our destiny and will be our great fulfilment.

An example of how determined those who hold to going to heaven, is Revelation 7:9, where a vast multitude are seen standing before the Throne........This is assumed to be in heaven, but heaven isn't mentioned anywhere in Rev 7 and the scene up till verse 8 is on earth. In Jerusalem, as confirmed by Rev 14:1.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

harpazo is used 13 times in the new testament.... how true that it only refers to being taken (gathered together) to the Lord once in the Word. That doesn't change the fact that Darby needed a word to segregate the return of Christ into two and first popularized the word by using it in his book "the Secret Rapture." Your claims are starting to be annoying. You just make them without offering any proof. You cannot provide any proof to you claim that the word "rapture" was ever used prior to Darby.

The Rapture (as it is commonly called even by Post-Trib adherents) is the gathering from all over the world (Mt 24:31 / 1Th 4:17) of those souls who are living at the time that Jesus comes with the resurrected souls from Paradise upon the clouds (1Th 3:13 / 1Th 4:16).

This happens on the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes again.

The Day of the Lord happens after the Great Tribulation.

Which itself is shortened by the sudden arrival of the "unknown" Day.

Jesus gives us the sequence of events which leads up to the Rapture in Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:15-31):

• Midpoint Abomination(s) - verse 15
• Great Tribulation - verse 22
• Sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord - verse 29
• Jesus' sign in the sky - His parousia (scrolling of the sky) - verse 30
• The gathering Harvest from the clouds - verse 31.

It matters not one whit if you think Darby coined the term. Language is defined by usage, and when you say "Rapture", everyone knows what you're talking about. People don't speak in Greek, but the word is dated to a time before Darby because it came from the Latin word for harpazo: rapio, which suggests it predates the Protestant Church since the Roman Catholic Church used Latin predominantly.

For your information: I am not Pre-Trib.
I am Pre-Wrath.

 

[keras]

For your information: I am not Pre-Trib.
I am Pre-Wrath.

And your belief that the wrath of God happens at the Return of Jesus, is where you go wrong. Revelation 15:1 totally refutes that idea, let alone the truth that the Day of the Lord's wrath happens at the Sixth Seal. Here is another prophecy speaking about that Day:

Isaiah 51:9-10 Awake, Awake! Arm of the Lord, show Your strength! Awake as You did in days of old, how You defeated the enemies in ancient times, then how You made a path through the sea for Your people.
Awake now; Lord, bring on Your judgement against the enemies that now threaten the Holy Land. Act again now, as You did in times past to save Your people and to establish them once again in the Land.

Isaiah 51:12-13 & 15 Why be worried and fearful of what may happen, of threats from oppressors and of the Lord’s wrath that makes the seas roar?
The Lord’s wrath....This is the many prophesied Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an event described by the prophets as an explosion of the sun: a terrible punishment by fire that will affect the whole earth. One result of this CME will be tremendous ocean movement, Jeremiah 51:42, ‘that makes the seas roar’, Luke 21:25, causing gigantic tsunamis. This soon to occur, blast of superheated cosmic particles will mainly strike the Middle East region, Zephaniah 2:4-5, fulfilling all the prophecies that say how the Lord will clear and cleanse His Land. Isaiah 33:10-12, Deuteronomy 32:43

Isaiah 51:17-20 Get up now My people, you have drunk the cup of the Lord’s wrath, a double disaster has struck you; havoc and ruin and who can console you? Of all the sons borne to you, there is no one to guide the people, they have all been overcome by the wrath and terrible rebuke of the Lord.
Isaiah 51:21-23 Therefore, listen to this in your affliction, you that are drunk, but not with wine. Thus says the Lord your God: I will plead My people’s cause and take from you the cup of wrath, I will hand it to the enemies, who say: Let us walk over you, we will flatten you to the ground like a road for us to trample on.
Isaiah 51:14, 16 & 11 My people, will soon be set free, they will not be confined, they will not lack food. I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand and I put My Words in your mouth. The Lord’s people, now in exile, will come back and enter Zion with shouts of triumph. Joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow flee away. Isaiah 62:10-12 Ref: REB. Some verses condensed.

Of the true descendants of Jacob, only the Lord’s righteous people, will survive His wrath, as we are told in Isaiah 17:4-6 On that Day, Jacobs glory will fade.....only the gleanings will be left. Jeremiah 6:9, Ezekiel 20:34-38
His people are ‘drunk, but not with wine’. Amos 8:11-12 explains this: In days to come, I shall send a famine on the earth, not of hunger for food, but for hearing the Word of the Lord. People will stagger everywhere, searching for the truth, but will not find it.
‘The cup of wrath, handed to the enemies’. This will be the fulfilment of Psalm 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Revelation 6:12-17 and many other verses that detail this sudden and shocking disaster to those who want to take over the holy Land.
‘I keep you covered by My hand’. Isaiah 31:5 describes how the Lord will protect Jerusalem, but there are many promises how all who call on Him will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2
‘They will gather and settle into the Promised Land’. The great Second Exodus of all the Lord’s people, whether true descendants of Abraham or those grafted in, will live in peace and security, at last fulfilling their true destiny being a ‘light to the nations’ and proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

And your belief that the wrath of God happens at the Return of Jesus, is where you go wrong.

So the guy who STILL can't get Isaiah 30:26 right, who imagines the sun is going to explode and burn a third of the earth - on a Day Isaiah says God will be healing those He has inflicted (through the desolations He has decreed) -

The guy who imagines every verse in the Old Testament to the Jews is really for the Church -

The guy who maniacally computes every space of time in the Bible on the silmile that a day is a thousand years (to God) -

Now wants to judge whether or not the first Trumpet follows the sixth Seal in Revelation chapters 7 and 8, or that after Jesus gathers the Harvest, an Angel comes out, directed by another Angel who has charge of the fire, so as to supply the blood of the Day of the Lord?

Get real.

Yes, when Jesus comes He will:

• Scroll the sky back (a dimensional rift, if you will)
• Descend as He went up
• Alight upon the Mount of Olives
• Split the Mount of Olives making a way for the Remnant Jews from Jerusalem to flee to the East (and then South).
• Muster the 144,000 to the new Mount Zion He has formed.
• Resurrect the Dead in Christ
• Come from that spiritual plane with those Holy Ones on the clouds
• Gather up the Elect who remain and are still alive
• Come on the clouds to Heaven and deliver the Great Multitude before the Father on His Throne (which is in Heaven)
• Open the seventh Seal
• - Then He will trample out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord engaging in battle first to Jerusalem
• Occupy the Temple
• Send His Army to scour the city of all who did not mourn for the abomination set up there
• Fight in the Valley of Decision
• and onward to Edom (possibly a rear guard action against those Northern forces pursuing the Remnant Jews).
• Then He returns to Heaven soaked in crimson blood having saved those He did.

And that can all happen in 24 hours.
Want Bible references? - I can back up everything I've put down here.

 

[keras]

Marcus straight back with the abuse and your belief about Isaiah 30:26. Plus your lack of understanding of what I actually do believe,
Rude comments that simply show your un-Christian attitude and the shallowness of your stance and thinking that a Bible statement like the sun shining as seven days in one, is insignificant.

You have been proved in error. You say the Lord's wrath happens at the Return. Revelation 15:1 says it is all over BEFORE the Return. Wrath is not mentioned in Rev 19.
At the Return Jesus simply disposes of the armies at Armageddon with the Sword of His Word.

Marcus says: Then He returns to Heaven soaked in crimson blood having saved those He did.
Jesus goes back to heaven after His Return? What for? Where do you get that idea? Revelation 19:13 says He COMES in blood splashed garments, not goes!
Isaiah 63:1-6 is another description of the Sixth Seal disaster.