Before we go any further, you need to get down the basics first..The Barrd said:The Barrd does understand
1. Bread and wine represent the body and the blood of Jesus.
2. Demons have not accepted salvation and never will.
- ATP
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Before we go any further, you need to get down the basics first..The Barrd said:The Barrd does understand
Hi Butch. Good to see you again. How can we lose our salvation when the seed of God remains in us forever..Butch5 said:It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can't lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
What demon that you know of has accepted Jesus as Savior after the fall Barrd?The Barrd said:The Barrd does understand that God's Holy Angels once enjoyed His favor. They once lived with Him in Heaven. They once were His intimate friends. No human has ever been as close to God as Lucifer once was. If anyone could ever claim that he was secure in God's love, surely it was Lucifer....most beautiful of the angels.
And yet, there was a rebellion in Heaven....Lucifer fell...God cast Him out of Heaven...and he took fully a third of the Holy Angels with him.
You did know that Satan was once one of God's most loved angel, didn't you?
And where is he now?
The "expand on" was with your view of different hermeneutics. I am seeking clarity in what you meant through that statement.OzSpen said:I'm not sure what you want me 'to expand' on. Would you please clarify?
I don't think I'm on target with your last paragraph. I'm not of the view that God zaps people with unconditional election and they are IN the kingdom, NEVER to be excluded. That's not what happened with the Philippian jailer according to Acts 16:30-31 (ESV): 'Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”'. They did not say, 'Just leave it to God/Jesus; he decides if you are ever going to be saved'. No, these evangelists said, '(You) believe in the Lord Jesus....' As I understand soteriology, there is no salvation without the human responsibility of believing'. However, you and I know that salvation is of the Lord - from the Lord.
I find a better biblical emphasis than unconditional election to be that found in Titus 2:11 (ESV): 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. This does not promote universalism, BUT it proves how God's saving grace is universal - is available to all. This is in contrast to Calvin's limited grace. I'll see if I can find this in Calvin's commentary online (I have it in a secondary source). Too often I've left CyB while composing a piece and when I returned, what I'd written had disappeared into the ethereal cloud.
Here it is:
Calvin's commentary on Titus 2:11 states of this phrase:
I find this to be an abominable piece of eisegesis. Calvin, a very accomplished commentator, has made 'all men' refer NOT to all individual men [meaning all human beings] but to individual classes of people and those in various ranks of life, including the race of slaves.
This is as bad a piece of exegesis that I've read anywhere as he makes 'all men' = some slaves and some from other classes and ranks in life. This is what happens when a commentator allows his predisposed presupposition (God's grace cannot be extended to all, but only to the elect) to intrude into his interpretation. Thus exegesis of this phrase in Titus 2;11 has become eisegesis in the hands of a Reformed Calvinist, the founder of the movement.
Oz
It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.Butch5 said:It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can't lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
As this doctrine came out of the Sardisean church age so the Lord gave his two cent in on this one...justaname said:It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.
This passage is about false prophets Barrd. We can clearly see that the godly are believers and the unrighteous are non believers. Notice it says the day of judgment here...2 Pet 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.The Barrd said:2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...
I never said that the bread and wine represent anything else, ATP.ATP said:Before we go any further, you need to get down the basics first..
1. Bread and wine represent the body and the blood of Jesus.
2. Demons have not accepted salvation and never will.
- ATP
YIKES!rockytopva said:Believe in OSAS and you will have a liscence even to murder! On John Calvin toasting Michael Servetus....
"Neither God nor his Spirit have counselled such an action. Christ did not treat those who negated him that way." - Italian poet Camillo Renato on the Servetus execution
"To kill a man is not to protect a doctrine, but it is to kill a man." - French humanist Sébastien Chateillon on the Servetus execution
"I consider it a serious matter to kill men because they are in error on some question of scriptural interpretation, when we know that even the elect ones may be led astray into error." - Michael Servetus
In which John Calvin counters... "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin
It seemed like Calvin himself would pay for such criminal deeds in this life (not to mention what awaits him in eternity) as his health receded in his fifties.
Fatally ill, and with blood flowing from his mouth, the 54 year-old pastor-theologian was carried to Saint Pierre in a chair. He was a man acquainted with pain. He suffered from terrible hemorrhoids, asthma, kidney stones, pulmonary tuberculosis, and gout. Fever was a consistent companion, and now he had ruptured blood vessels in his lungs due to his violent coughing spells. This same month he wrote of his tribulations to the doctors of Montpellier:
"But at that time [20 years ago] I was not attacked by gout, knew nothing of the stone or the gravel, was not tormented with the gripings of colic nor afflicted with piles nor threatened with haemorrhages. At present all these enemies charge me like troops. As soon as I recovered from a quartan fever, I was taken with severe and acute pains in my calves, which, after being partly relieved, returned a second and then third time. At last they turned into a disease of the joints, which spread from my feet to my knees. An ulcer in the haemorrhoid veins long tortured me ..." - John Calvin
You had said John 6:47 is figurative language. That is false Barrd.The Barrd said:Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Now, I could post the entire passage, but it is very long...and you won't read it all anyway. What is happening here is that Jesus is talking about what we now call the eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which He says is His body and His blood, and further says that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no part with Him.
Understandably, this idea confused and upset many of His disciples...and who can blame them? As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
Anyway, I am not the only one with a weak stomach. Evidently, many of His disciples were also sickened by this idea...and they didn't seem to think He was speaking figuratively:
Oh, you mean these guys:ATP said:This passage is about false prophets Barrd. We can clearly see that the godly are believers and the unrighteous are non believers. Notice it says the day of judgment here...2 Pet 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
Matt 10:15 NIV Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
John 5:29 ESV and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 11:24 NIV Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Rom 2:5 NIV But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
- ATP
The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. This verse also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.The Barrd said:Oh, you mean these guys:
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The ones who had escaped the pollutions of the world...that would be sin....through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ....there is no other escape. Yet the got tangled back up in sin again, and over come....and they are worse off now than they were before? Before what, then, ATP?
The ones who had once known the way of righteousness, but who turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them? Are those the people you are talking about?
The ones that God, through the mouth of His Apostle, compares to dogs returning to their vomit? Or to pigs who were washed returning to wallowing in filth?
These are obviously apostates, ATP.
In case you still don't know what that word means, it means that they had hold of faith, but they lost it.
Obviously you did not read the entire post.ATP said:You had said John 6:47 is figurative language. That is false Barrd.
Good, now that we have it settled, once we believe we have eternal life Barrd. Justification only comes once. What are we believing in Barrd Rom 10:9-10 NIV, John 6:47 NIV?The Barrd said:Obviously you did not read the entire post.
I don't know why I even waste my time with you, I honestly don't.
As you probably know, there are Catholics who firmly believe that the bread and wine actually do become real flesh and blood...an idea that makes me nauseous. Of course, I believe that He was talking figuratively.
If you can't figure out that I was referring to the idea that the bread and wine were actually real flesh and blood, there is no more to say.
I know you can read, ATP....you carefully read every word that other OSASers type.
Is it just me you pull this silly charade with?
First of all, I don't recognize Gill, whoever he is, as any kind of authority. Why should I? Did he walk with Jesus? Is his name anywhere in the Bible?ATP said:The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. This verse also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.
2 Peter 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.
2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.
2 Peter 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.
2 Peter 2:20 NIV Escaped / Just like any man that escapes sin. If he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
Augustine was among the first to affirm this doctrine...perseverance of the saints...rockytopva said:As this doctrine came out of the Sardisean church age so the Lord gave his two cent in on this one...
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." - Revelation 3:5
So scripturally eternal security is granted to him 'who overcometh.' In which the Lord repeats over and over in scripture...
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13
Well, I don't know about you, but I've spent the last 53 years of my life following a Jewish carpenter called Jesus the Christ.ATP said:Good, now that we have it settled, once we believe we have eternal life Barrd. Justification only comes once. What are we believing in Barrd Rom 10:9-10 NIV, John 6:47 NIV?