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The Elect

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by haanne, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    If you can't prove what you believe drown me out...right...:naughty:You haven't and can't prove three stages or ages or whatever you call it. Your presupposition, the foundation for your argument is based on Bullingerism and not the Bible...no matter how much Scripture you quote. You've gone to a lot of workThe JW's and Mormons quote Scripture as well.You are wrongly dividing the word, this isn't personal, but if your theology hasn't been accept by any of the church fathers then you have a problem.
    They are also, in effect, saying: 1. that the first land animals and man were not created by God at the same time, namely during the 24 hours of Day Six of Creation Week, as Genesis 1 clearly states; 2. that the short age timescale in Genesis (obtained from the genealogies and other parts of the Bible, e.g. Mark 10:6) is not correct; 3. that the Curse of death in the created world was not the result of Adam’s sin, as Genesis 3 states. If pre-Adamite creatures were living and dying for hundreds of thousands/millions of years before Adam, then the connection is lost between the first Adam, who brought physical death into the world, and the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ), who brought physical resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45).12 As Adam was federal head of the entire creation, his Fall affected everything else (Romans 8:20–22). The fact is that, Biblically, all physical death has occurred since Adam’s Fall, not before. ‘As sincere as they may be, those [Christians] who espouse the pre-Adamite theory and its history of death before Adam are actually endangering the very doctrine of salvation they hold dear.’12 4. that the ‘very good’ world which God created included carnivory, despite the Genesis 1:29–30 teaching that animals and humans were originally vegetarian. The Bible tells us that Adam was the first biological man—in Genesis 1–5; Deuteronomy 32:8; 1 Chronicles 1:1; Luke 3:38; Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; 1 Timothy 2:13; and Jude 14. So, how many parts of the Bible are they willing to concede as being ‘errant’, or in need of ‘reinterpreting’, in order to accommodate the evolutionary/uniformitarian interpretation of the fossil record?

    Was Lucifer on a Pre-Adamic Earth?Notice from these two passages we see they seem to teach Lucifer was ON THE EARTH when he rebelled. God evidently placed him on earth to rule it and an angelic civilization."That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (Isaiah 14:17) M.R. Dehaan believes Lucifer was placed over an Angelic civilization on this pre-adamic earth complete with 'cities' of angels in this angelic civilization with lush vegetation.(M.R. Dehaan, GENESIS & EVOLUTION, p26-28) Notice Ezekiel 28:13-17 says Lucifer 'was' in the garden of Eden' BEFORE iniquity was found in him. Wouldn't this teach that he was in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve, possibly on a Pre-Adamic earth?"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..... from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."Some would argue that the Garden of Eden didn't exist until Genesis 2:8 when it says,"And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."Well, wait a minute....Here it says that God planted a Garden in Eden....That doesn't mean there could not have been a garden in Eden on the Pre-adamic earth too....Remember, if this 'Reconstruction' or 'RE-CREATION' view is correct, God 're-creates' and 'makes to appear again' several things....in these first chapters of Genesis.... Isaiah 14:12 says that Lucifer declared he would 'ascend above the clouds' in his rebellion to be like God. This would imply he was on the earth BELOW THE CLOUDS would it not? How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    Death cannot be construed as a benefit that God instituted in order to aid mankind or creation. Evolutionism teaches that death is part of the process that nature uses in order to continually promote each species and allow adaptation to the environment (survival of the fittest). The Bible clearly teaches that death is the result of the rebellion of Satan and Adam's sin, and not something that God created during the time period that gap theorists believe exists between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Chaulmers taught that the rebellion of Satan and his demons took place before Adam was created (a pre-adamite rebellion.) Satan's rebellion and eventual placement in Eden is actually discussed in a couple of books of the Bible, including Ezekiel: "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:13-15 KJV).To believe that a rebellious Satan was on earth prior to "day six" is in direct conflict with the following scripture: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31 KJV). If God beheld everything after day six and it was "very good," how could Lucifer have rebelled back in verses one and two? That is simply impossible, since scripture would be in conflict with itself, which is an interpretive violation. Everything would not be "very good" if sin was present in the Garden and Lucifer had already rebelled against God. The concept of a pre-adamite rebellion seems to fall apart quite rapidly upon further examination of all the scriptures associated with the fall of Lucifer. Since there could not have been a pre-adamite rebellion, Satan's actions could not have accounted for the age-long spectacle of suffering and death in the world during the geologic ages that preceded it. Thus, God would have to be responsible for the death and suffering in the pre-adamite world, but that is impossible.Gap Theory: No Support in ScriptureThe Gap Theory has been advocated by many sincere Bible teachers, but it actually involves numerous and serious fallacies. In general, contemporary biblical scholars and scientists do not accept this theory. There is no scriptural support for any of its tenets that pass the tests of sound Biblical interpretation.

    It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states.Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy”. Thus, the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of creation) was completed in six days.[1] Where is there time for a gap?(Review the creation week)It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,” we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any (nephesh[2]) animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood” because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first” man.Vegetation (photo copyrighted) (Courtesy of Eden Communications). Genesis 1:29-30 teaches us that the animals and man were originally created vegetarian. This is consistent with God's description of the creation as “very good.” How could a fossil record which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other) be described as “very good”? Thus, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam's sin. The historical event of Noah's flood, recorded in Genesis, provides an explanation for the presence of huge numbers of dead animals buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.Romans 8:22 teaches us that “we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. The fossil record shows disease, decay, and death. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.[3]The version of the gap theory that puts Satan's fall at the end of the geological ages, just before the supposed pre-Adamic Lucifer's flood, has a further problem—the death and suffering recorded in the fossils must have been God's fault. As it happened before Satan's fall, Satan and sin cannot be blamed for it.[4]The gap theory is logically inconsistent because it explains away what it is supposed to accommodate—supposed evidence for an old earth.Gap theorists accept that the earth is very old. They base this on geologic evidence interpreted with the assumption that the present is the key to the past. This assumption implies that in the past, sediments containing fossils formed at basically the same rate as they do today. This is also used by most geologists and biologists to justify belief in the “geologic column” as represented by billions of years of earth history. This geologic column has become the showcase of evolution because the fossils are claimed to show “ascent” from simple to complex forms.This places gap theorists in a dilemma. Committed to literal creation because of their acceptance of a “literal” view of Genesis, they cannot accept the conclusions of evolution based on the geologic column. Nor can they accept that the days in the Genesis record correspond to geologic periods. So they propose that God reshaped the earth and re-created all life in six literal days after “Lucifer's flood” (which produced fossils); hence the name “ruin-reconstruction.” Satan's sin supposedly caused this flood and the resulting judgment upon that sin reduced the previous world to a state of being “without form and void.”While the gap theorist may think Lucifer's flood solves the problem, this actually removes the reason for the theory in the first place. If all, or most, of the sediments and fossils were produced quickly in one massive worldwide Lucifer's flood, then the main “evidence” that the earth is extremely old (based on the assumed slow formation of the sediments) no longer exists.Also, if the world was reduced to a shapeless chaotic mess, as gap theorists propose, how could a reasonably ordered assemblage of fossils and sediments remain as evidence? Surely with such chaos the fossil record would have been severely disrupted, if not entirely destroyed. (This argument also applies to those who say the fossil record formed over hundreds of millions of years before this so-called “Lucifer's flood,” which would have severely rearranged things.)Grand Canyon (photo copyrighted) (Courtesy of Eden Communications)If “Lucifer's flood” created this, then what did Noah's flood do?(See the video: Grand Canyon: Monument to the Flood - GoThe gap theory does away with the evidence for Noah's flood.If the fossil record was formed by “Lucifer's flood,” then what did the global flood of Noah do? On this point the gap theorist is forced to conclude that Noah's flood left virtually no trace. To be consistent, the gap theorist would have to defend Noah's flood as a local event. Custance, one of the major proponents of the gap theory, did this. He even published a paper defending a local flood.[5]Genesis, however, depicts Noah's flood as a judgment for man's sin (Genesis 6). Water flooded the earth for over a year (Genesis 6:17 and 7:19-24). Only eight people, and air-breathing, land-dwelling animals with them on the ark, survived. (Genesis 7:23).Sadly, in relegating the fossil record to the supposed gap, “gappists” have removed the evidence for God's judgment on the violent pre-flood world in the graveyard of the flood. The fossils buried by the flood should warn us of God's judgment to come on sinful humans (2 Peter 3:2-14).The gap theorist ignores the evidence for a young earth.The true gap theorist also ignores evidence consistent with an age for the earth of less than 10,000 years. There is much evidence for this—the decay and rapid reversals of the earth's magnetic field; the quantity of helium in the earth's atmosphere; the amount of salt in the oceans; the wind-up of spiral galaxies; and much more.[6]The gap theory fails to accommodate standard uniformitarian geology with its long ages anyway.Today's uniformitarian geologists allow for no worldwide flood of any kind—the imaginary Lucifer's flood, or Noah's real flood. They also recognize no break between the supposed former created world and the current re-created world.Most importantly, the gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3:22-23). These passages tell us that Adam's sin led to physical death as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man's sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin. Genesis 3:22-23 tells us that if Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever, but God decreed that they should die physically because of their sin.In placing on man the curse of physical death, God provided a way to redeem man through the person of His Son Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ on the cross. who suffered the curse of death on the cross for us. “He tasted death for every man” (Hebrews 2:9). By becoming the perfect sacrifice for our sin and rebellion, He conquered death. He took the penalty that should rightly have been ours at the hands of a righteous judge, and bore it in His own body on the cross. All who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are received back to God to spend eternity with Him. That is the message of Christianity. To believe there was death before Adam's sin destroys the basis of the Christian message, because the Bible states that man's rebellious actions led to death and the corruption of the universe (Romans 8:19-22). Thus, the gap theory undermines the foundations of Christianity.Genesis records a catastrophe that destroyed all organisms that had the “breath of life in them” except for those preserved in Noah's ark. Christ refers to Noah's flood in Matthew 24:37-39, and the apostle Peter writes that, just as there was once a global judgment of mankind by water, so there will be another worldwide judgment by fire (2 Peter 3).It is more consistent with the whole framework of Scripture to attribute most fossils to Noah's flood than to resort to a strained interpretation of the fall of Satan[7] and a totally speculative catastrophe that contributes nothing to biblical understanding, or to science.Moreover, advocating death before Adam sinned contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that death came only after Adam sinned and made man's redemption necessary.
    I tried to post the links only but they were ignored.j
     
  2. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (kriss;22659)
    Why dont you show me what scripture I slipped in I gave you 2 peter 3
    If you read 2 Peter 3 as it stands, without thinking of ages, gaps, or Bullinger, you'll soon notice that Ockham's Razor works very well in this instance. There is no need to construct a super structure of previous ages.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    So another words Peter is lying Gods word is lying all science lies you can not show me anything but the church fathers you follow and words of men. You choose to deny all the scriptures because men said so forget Knowledge shall increase You have your church fathers. Well we choose our heavenly fathers words over you church fathers.http://www.christianityboard.com/katabole-t4460.html
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (J.M.;22661)
    (Kriss;22659)
    Why dont you show me what scripture I slipped in I gave you 2 peter 3
    If you read 2 Peter 3 as it stands, without thinking of ages, gaps, or Bullinger, you'll soon notice that Ockham's Razor works very well in this instance. There is no need to construct a super structure of previous ages.There is no possisble way to have an Earth to be shown as 6,000 years old.1. It is truly better for us to let the scriptures intrpret themselves.2. Like the multiple verses saying "without form and void" (Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah 4:23) proves the fact that there is the First Earth Age. Here is better "it was not created in vain" (Isaiah 45:18) fits in too because of the same Hebrew word used. We are all created at or around the same time. (souls existed at first Earth Age)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
     
  5. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    J.M.So how old do you think the earth is,and where do you think we were before we were born?
     
  6. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;22636)
    Propitiation means, “the act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.” That would mean all of God’s wrath has been appeased, propitiated sins cannot be punished, the only logical conclusion if this passage means what you say it means is universalism. Since we both know that not all are saved, that’s called heresy, then the above verse can’t be in reference to the propitiated sins of all mankind. It was common at the time of the writing of the Epistle to refer to gentiles as “the world.” “…if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be “specially” true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others “without” believing?” The word “specially” limits this verse to those “that believe.” In no sense does God save all men. Theology isn’t a group of fragments, but a logical look at what the Bible has to say, it’s not man centered either but God centered...hence the word “theo.”Glad you asked! As far as I know since “specially those that believe” is consistent with the rest of Scripture and places limits in how we understand this verse, it would mean that God is the Saviour in a very simple and providential manner. Period. By God giving us life, creation to sustain it, preserving our lives, restraining us from doing further evil, etc. and for these reasons He is the Saviour of all men but not in an everlasting sense.The Gospel is the historical proclaim of an accomplished act. Spurgeon the great Baptist preacher wrote something alone the lines of, “everyone is a Calvinist while on their knees begging God, it’s when they stand up that they have the problem.” Election is a Scriptural fact and as the Spirit leads these truths need to be learned and understood.Wow, that’s presuming just a little about my motives isn’t it? It should be crystal clear that proclaiming the death burial and resurrection of Christ to those who reject the Gospel doesn’t bother the unbeliever one bit. It’s actually bad news to the unbeliever because it hardens their hearts, they don’t care that Christ died, they hate God as the Bible tells us. I’m running out of time so I’ll quote a simple answer: Quote: "one" is not in the Greek. The word is pas which means "all" or "every." But "all" of whom? Verse 10 begins with "For" which means the following verses will explain the previous ones. In these verses the writer refers to "sons" (verse 10), "brethren" (verses 11 and 17), "children" (verses 14-15), and "the seed of Abraham" (verse 16). These terms best describe "those who are of faith," not people in general (see Galatians 3:6-16).[end quote] I see your quote and raise you one, Spurgeon: “What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man’s activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all - to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, ‘Lord, save, or we perish.’ We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, ‘I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,’ marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow.” [end quote]Thanks Jake.kriss, you're ignoring what I posted.v. 5, 6 This is written against false teachers who deny God's intervention in history, Peter sites the flood.v. 7 The word of God which predicted the flood is also telling of a future day of judgment and destruction.v. 8 God is not subject to time.v. 9 God will fulfill His promise in consuming this age.2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.I'll have to go with Ockham's razor on this one, sorry. Can you give me a list of Biblical scholars who believe this bunk? I'd like to investigate their backgrounds.*kriss, with all do respect can we stay on topic of the elect?Peace,jm
    Propitiation actually means "mercy seat." He is merciful to sinners. God is not into appeasing wrath. God is love. That does not mean He does not have wrath, the Bible is clear, He does. I do not believe in "universalism" nor do I believe in the idea that God loves only the "elect." Universalism is the teaching that all of mankind will be saved ultimately to heaven, not true, many will be lost because they reject Jesus Christ. I do believe He is the "Savior of all men," yet many reject his "gift." It is true, God is not subject to time, yet he created human beings who are subject to time, henceforth, he does love us and will respect the sanctity in which He created the seven days, evening and morning. God created "time." God is the "Saviour of all men" as the scripture states, that does not mean all "accept" Him. He gives us "freedom of will," to everyone! His desire is that all will be sanctified and perfect in Him. I believe that God wants us to be perfect in Him. I do not believe in "perfection-ISM," a legalistic type of religion. But I do believe He wants to "perfect" us according to scripture. Hebrews 6:1; Matthew 5:48. But what is perfection? "But I say unto you, Love your enemies. ... [we hate the terrorists, they are not our brethren]. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? ... do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more that others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father, which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 6:44-48. To be perfect is to actually "love" everyone! That is perfection. We do not love their actions but we love them in spite of the political wire-working of the day, democrats or republicans. In the day of Christ walking the earth, the democrat liberals were considered the Sadducee's, and the republicans were considered the "conservative Pharisee's." Let's not be fooled, both of these parties came together to murder the Son of God. Let's "dig" deeper for truth dear people.J.M. let us know something in which he is not aware of, which I studied in depth a couple of years ago concerning his statement, "one" is not in the Greek. The word is pas which means "all" or "every." But "all" of whom?" End Quote. "For ALL [pas, meaning everyone] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Being justified freely by his grace [and grace alone without faith] through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23, 24. This is a verdict of acquittal, a legal redemption, a pardon for all of mankind. When we say Yes in a genuine sanctified manner this is our experience through faith, this is justification by faith. The scripture does NOT say we are justified BECAUSE of our faith, but that we are justified "by" faith. It is the avenue which God gives us to believe in Christ Jesus. It's not because of our faith or works, but by His "grace." Eph. 2:8. No boasting is included. Yet "faith works." "Faith worketh through love." In other words, "faith is 'energeo' through love." ... faith is energized by LOVE (agape), God's love. Perhaps if we look at Rev. 3 more closely we will see that the "gold tried in the fire" is "faith and love." Faith IS building on a firm foundation of God's word, the Rock, if not, it's simply sand. Some believe that Jesus Christ saves only a special few, a subjective gospel apart from the cross. But Christ's cross is firstly objective IN HIM, for ALL! Christ came to save all mankind, yet many refuse, but how can we truly witness effectively if we believe WE ARE THE ONLY PREDESTINED ONES to be saved. This was the attitude of Israel, "I am saved because I'm the elect, and I feel it to be so." That's why they ended up killing Jesus Christ on the Cross. ... Do we witness the true or the false gospel? Can the Holy Spirit witness for you if you do not believe in His truth? There is only ONE gospel, not many variations. By the way, do we know what Babylon represents? Primarily, Babylon does not represent "secular humanism," but apostate Christianity. Have you noticed many that claim to be truth seekers who give lies? Babylon means "confusion." Are "Christians confused" about truth. Non-believers are not "confused" in the sense of the word, they just don't "believe" "period." Sorry, that's another Bible study on the word "Babylon." ....Oh Lord, we are "sinners" saved by grace, I'm guilty, and have mercy! He has predestined all, but many refuse there birthright possession such as Esau. blessings in Christ,Jake
     
  7. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    Sorry Jake, ‘mercy seat’ is only found in Hebrews 9. The three transliterated Greek words are: hilaskomai (Strongs Greek number 2433) Used in Luke 18:13 (where the RSV translates it with ‘be merciful’) and Heb 2:17 (‘to make expiation’). hilasmos (Strongs Greek number 2434) Used in I John 2:2 (‘the expiation’) and 4:10 (‘the expiation’). hilasterion (Strongs Greek number 2435) Used in Rom 3:25 (‘an expiation’) and Heb 9:5 (‘mercy seat’). Jake, you're post is logically inconsistent. If Christ is the "Saviour of all men" and all men are not saved then Christ is not the Saviour of all men. Haven't you folks ever heard that two contrary statements can not be true? :angel10:
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Saviour of the world.
     
  9. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;22711)
    Sorry Jake, ‘mercy seat’ is only found in Hebrews 9. The three transliterated Greek words are: hilaskomai (Strongs Greek number 2433) Used in Luke 18:13 (where the RSV translates it with ‘be merciful’) and Heb 2:17 (‘to make expiation’). hilasmos (Strongs Greek number 2434) Used in I John 2:2 (‘the expiation’) and 4:10 (‘the expiation’). hilasterion (Strongs Greek number 2435) Used in Rom 3:25 (‘an expiation’) and Heb 9:5 (‘mercy seat’). Jake, you're post is logically inconsistent. If Christ is the "Saviour of all men" and all men are not saved then Christ is not the Saviour of all men. Haven't you folks ever heard that two contrary statements can not be true? :angel10:
    "Logic" is a human response, (human reasoning). Christ does say He is the "Saviour of all men," He does not lie. We need not explain His words away.
     
  10. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (preciousmessage;22715)
    "Logic" is a human response, (human reasoning). Christ does say He is the "Saviour of all men," He does not lie. We need not explain His words away.
    Christ doesn't lie but that's not evern part of this topic. Do you deny that God created the laws that govern our universe? If you deny logic and reason, that's exactly what you're doing.Acts 18:4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.Our faith is reasonible, it's logical, we can't give ground to the pagans and work off of blind faith.Christian Logic
     
  11. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (thesuperjag;22713)
    John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Saviour of the world.
    Hi Jag,Nice to hear from you. .... Did you just hear J.M.'s reasoning, Christ says He is the Saviour of the world, but J.M says He is not. This is called confusion, and what happens is that the despondent and downtrodden will accept this rhetoric when pronounced without someone with spiritual discernment.
     
  12. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;22717)
    Christ doesn't lie but that's not evern part of this topic. Do you deny that God created the laws that govern our universe? If you deny logic and reason, that's exactly what you're doing.Acts 18:4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.Our faith is reasonible, it's logical, we can't give ground to the pagans and work off of blind faith.Christian Logic
    I'm not sure what that has to do with Christ's words that He is "the Saviour of all men." You denied Christ's own words, correct?
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (preciousmessage;22718)
    (thesuperjag;22713)
    John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Jag Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Saviour of the world.
    Hi Jag, Nice to hear from you. .... Did you just hear J.M.'s reasoning, Christ says He is the Saviour of the world, but J.M says He is not. This is called confusion, and what happens is that the despondent and downtrodden will accept this rhetoric when pronounced without someone with spiritual discernment.Yes Jake. What he is teaching us is damnable heresy. Not biblical. It's completely unbiblical. That's why I quoted these scriptures.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, the Saviour of the world.
     
  14. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    Christ doesn't lie but that's not evern part of this topic. Do you deny that God created the laws that govern our universe? If you deny logic and reason, that's exactly what you're doing.Acts 18:4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.Our faith is reasonible, it's logical, we can't give ground to the pagans and work off of blind faith.[url="http://www.christianlogic.com/]Christian Logic[/url]
    I have noticed that you're into "logic and reason." This is the "intellectualism" of today's theory's."For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, ... Casting down "imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God..."What is the original meaning of "imaginations?" .... LOGISMOS... Logic or reasoning, conceit. Jake
     
  15. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    Yes Jake. What he is teaching us is damnable heresy. Not biblical. It's completely unbiblical. That's why I quoted these scriptures.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, the Saviour of the world.
    Yes, fine scriptures indeed! We can now go to every unbeliever and say, "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. ... and NOW ... "Be reconciled to God, He loves you!" 2 Corinthians 5:14-21. Oh sinner, like me, do not reject His compassionate call to repentance. ... John 3:17 and 18 are great scriptures, Christ Jesus condemns no man, ... man condemns himself by rejecting Christ, therefore He has to let you go to your own devices. Jesus give us "free will" in this regard. Jake
     
  16. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    Yes Jake. What he is teaching us is damnable heresy. Not biblical. It's completely unbiblical. That's why I quoted these scriptures.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hathnot believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, the Saviour of the world.
    Jag, when you stated that "God so loved the WORLD" you have given sympathy to every man and woman on earth. That is who God is, GOD IS LOVE. We are distorting God's love when we say differently. That is the "CRUX" of the problem for those who would distort God's love for mankind, choosing only a special few. The question is, "who is God?" One writer said, "The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them." End Quote
     
  17. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    [​IMG] Jake, I can see that you're into anti-intellectual, so there is really no need to continue reading. I'll post the following for whoever is left to read it.
    1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 — "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth."2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1 Eph 1:4, etc., etc. — "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world he loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth."According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded — compare Job 38:4 etc.3 "Kosmos" is used of the world system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" — compare Matt. 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R.V.4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3:19, etc. — "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ."God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passaGen. where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody", for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc."Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29 3:16,17 6:33 12:47;1 Cor. 4:9 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.
    Three questions the freewiller's, election is based on my work of faith, can't answer.1. If God loves all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the love of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?2. If God wills for all men to be saved, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the will of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?3. If Christ shed His precious blood for all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the work of Christ on the cross have to do with anyone’s salvation? The Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. The mind is enmity [extreme hatred] against God and cannot please Him [Romans 8:7-8], this same unregenerate person cannot understand spiritual things [1 Corinthians 2:14] such as the Gospel which is a matter of the Spirit. The will of the unbeliever is to do the devil's will [John 8:44] and not God's will. The unbelievers will is held captive by the devil [2 Timothy 2:25-26] and before we believe we are children of the devil [1 John 3:10] being of the world we are controlled by the devil. We are sinners [Romans 3:23] both Arminians and Calvinists agree but only one of the two rightly sees that everyone who sins is slave to sin [John 8:34] and the whole "world" is in the power of the evil one [1 John 5:19]. It's impossible to bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing [Job 14:4] because we cannot change ourselves [Jeremiah 13:23]. Be careful of assumptions...the Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. Does God set the choice between life and death before every man without exception?Nope.Ever read Romans 9? The analogy is simple, the potter does whatever he likes with a lump of clay and the clay can say nothing about it. What the clay becomes the potter has formed it before hand to it's end. Analogy is importance to teaching what is already assumed, it doesn't prove a point, but gives the reader a different persecptive. This analogy is assuming that God has all the power over the clay to make it whatever He wants it to be, for whatever His purpose is, for glory or for wrath prepared for destruction. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: You folks would have to say no, the potter has no power...After reading over this thread there is nothing left to say. We see strawmen arguments all over the place.Some of the points raised need to be thought through, God created logic and without logic we wouldn't even be able to type back and forth because our communication is based on logic...the disordered, constant use of superlatives and pejoratives are daunting. Bravado and machismo ooze from a few of your keyboards, and I'd have to say its probably not the way in which I “approach Scripture” or the way in which anyone who disagrees with approaches Scripture, it’s off handed anti-intellectual style in the responses.So, did you read that Jag? Did you see that you and Jake are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible? Does world mean world in every instance? When a decree went out in the Gospel of Luke that the whole world would be taxed did that include every single livinging person or just those within the context of the chapter? No matter which way you slice it, you add works to salvation, it's Jesus PLUS something else that results in the sinner being saved.jm
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    [​IMG] Jake, I can see that you're into anti-intellectual, so there is really no need to continue reading. I'll post the following for whoever is left to read it.Three questions the freewiller's, election is based on my work of faith, can't answer.1. If God loves all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the love of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?2. If God wills for all men to be saved, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the will of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?3. If Christ shed His precious blood for all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the work of Christ on the cross have to do with anyone’s salvation? The Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. The mind is enmity [extreme hatred] against God and cannot please Him [Romans 8:7-8], this same unregenerate person cannot understand spiritual things [1 Corinthians 2:14] such as the Gospel which is a matter of the Spirit. The will of the unbeliever is to do the devil's will [John 8:44] and not God's will. The unbelievers will is held captive by the devil [2 Timothy 2:25-26] and before we believe we are children of the devil [1 John 3:10] being of the world we are controlled by the devil. We are sinners [Romans 3:23] both Arminians and Calvinists agree but only one of the two rightly sees that everyone who sins is slave to sin [John 8:34] and the whole "world" is in the power of the evil one [1 John 5:19]. It's impossible to bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing [Job 14:4] because we cannot change ourselves [Jeremiah 13:23]. Be careful of assumptions...the Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. Does God set the choice between life and death before every man without exception?Nope.Ever read Romans 9? The analogy is simple, the potter does whatever he likes with a lump of clay and the clay can say nothing about it. What the clay becomes the potter has formed it before hand to it's end. Analogy is importance to teaching what is already assumed, it doesn't prove a point, but gives the reader a different persecptive. This analogy is assuming that God has all the power over the clay to make it whatever He wants it to be, for whatever His purpose is, for glory or for wrath prepared for destruction. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: You folks would have to say no, the potter has no power...After reading over this thread there is nothing left to say. We see strawmen arguments all over the place.Some of the points raised need to be thought through, God created logic and without logic we wouldn't even be able to type back and forth because our communication is based on logic...the disordered, constant use of superlatives and pejoratives are daunting. Bravado and machismo ooze from a few of your keyboards, and I'd have to say its probably not the way in which I “approach Scripture” or the way in which anyone who disagrees with approaches Scripture, it’s off handed anti-intellectual style in the responses.So, did you read that Jag? Did you see that you and Jake are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible? Does world mean world in every instance? When a decree went out in the Gospel of Luke that the whole world would be taxed did that include every single livinging person or just those within the context of the chapter? No matter which way you slice it, you add works to salvation, it's Jesus PLUS something else that results in the sinner being saved.jm
    Actualy I rely on Yahshua only. For He is the Saviour of the world. Did He die for the Jews only? No. He died for the Gentiles too. He died for EVERYBODY. (I Peter 3:18) God commanded EVERYONE to repent for their sins. (Including the Kenites) (II Peter 3:9) For unbelievers can not inhereit the kingdom of God. And of course unbelievers (like the Kenites) can not understand the spiritual things because they can only rely the physical things and understanding. For us to make it through, we need the Truth. The Kenites are the reason that causes so much confusions.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Romans 3:29 - Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Saviour of the world.James 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
  19. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    [​IMG] Jake, I can see that you're into anti-intellectual, so there is really no need to continue reading. I'll post the following for whoever is left to read it.Three questions the freewiller's, election is based on my work of faith, can't answer.1. If God loves all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the love of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?2. If God wills for all men to be saved, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the will of God have to do with anyone’s salvation?3. If Christ shed His precious blood for all men, including those who receive eternal life and those who suffer eternal damnation, what does the work of Christ on the cross have to do with anyone’s salvation? The Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. The mind is enmity [extreme hatred] against God and cannot please Him [Romans 8:7-8], this same unregenerate person cannot understand spiritual things [1 Corinthians 2:14] such as the Gospel which is a matter of the Spirit. The will of the unbeliever is to do the devil's will [John 8:44] and not God's will. The unbelievers will is held captive by the devil [2 Timothy 2:25-26] and before we believe we are children of the devil [1 John 3:10] being of the world we are controlled by the devil. We are sinners [Romans 3:23] both Arminians and Calvinists agree but only one of the two rightly sees that everyone who sins is slave to sin [John 8:34] and the whole "world" is in the power of the evil one [1 John 5:19]. It's impossible to bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing [Job 14:4] because we cannot change ourselves [Jeremiah 13:23]. Be careful of assumptions...the Bible denies the ability of man to choose feely before we are born again. I just don't see how a bad tree can bear good fruit [Matthew 7:16-18] because in our natural state we are never able to come to a knowledge of truth [2 Timothy 3:7-8]. Adam's death for disobedience [Genesis 2:16-17] was passed on to us [Romans 5:12], and it is necessary for us to be quickened who were dead [Ephesians 2:1-3,Colossians 2:13]. The human heart is described as evil and wicked [Genesis 6:5,Genesis 8:21,Ecclesiastes 9:3,Jeremiah 17:9,Mark 7:21-23], loving darkness rather than light [John 3:19]. Does God set the choice between life and death before every man without exception?Nope.Ever read Romans 9? The analogy is simple, the potter does whatever he likes with a lump of clay and the clay can say nothing about it. What the clay becomes the potter has formed it before hand to it's end. Analogy is importance to teaching what is already assumed, it doesn't prove a point, but gives the reader a different persecptive. This analogy is assuming that God has all the power over the clay to make it whatever He wants it to be, for whatever His purpose is, for glory or for wrath prepared for destruction. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: You folks would have to say no, the potter has no power...After reading over this thread there is nothing left to say. We see strawmen arguments all over the place.Some of the points raised need to be thought through, God created logic and without logic we wouldn't even be able to type back and forth because our communication is based on logic...the disordered, constant use of superlatives and pejoratives are daunting. Bravado and machismo ooze from a few of your keyboards, and I'd have to say its probably not the way in which I “approach Scripture” or the way in which anyone who disagrees with approaches Scripture, it’s off handed anti-intellectual style in the responses.So, did you read that Jag? Did you see that you and Jake are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible? Does world mean world in every instance? When a decree went out in the Gospel of Luke that the whole world would be taxed did that include every single livinging person or just those within the context of the chapter? No matter which way you slice it, you add works to salvation, it's Jesus PLUS something else that results in the sinner being saved.jm
    Hi J.M.,I could not say it any better: Spiritual discernment and intellectual discernment are different things. At the highest point of the world’s intellectual advancement, it presents a picture of commotion and strife which is actually at the height of intellectualism. The propensity for making a show is one of the prominent characteristics of weak human nature.Fallen man, the weakest intelligence in the universe, is also the most boastful. The proud Nebuchadnezzar has his successors to-day, among nations as well as individuals, who desire to call the attention of the world to the great Babylon’s which they have built. But it is as true now as in his day that “Pride goeth before a fall;” for vanity is only another name for folly, and when vanity becomes so great that it must find vent in boastful displays meant only to glorify man, it is an indication that man’s folly has arisen to such a height that it must be humbled by the hand of God.The Depths of Ignorance.—“The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know, My people doth not consider,” says the Lord. Isa. i. 3. Therefore the wisdom of this world does not rise to the level of the intelligence of brutes. Yes, it sinks men below the level of brutes, when it is given full chance to develop; because when men “became vain in their imaginations,” “professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” Rom. i. 21-23." End Quote
     
  20. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    Actualy I rely on Yahshua only. For He is the Saviour of the world. Did He die for the Jews only? No. He died for the Gentiles too. He died for EVERYBODY. (I Peter 3:18) God commanded EVERYONE to repent for their sins. (Including the Kenites) (II Peter 3:9)
    I believe the Rechabites were of the people of the Kenites, and of the house of Rechab, and the Kenites were the descendants of Moses’s father-in-law. What say you Jag? Are you talking symbolically or literally? Does any race, color, or creed have the opportunity to be saved at last? Please explain. Jake
     
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