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The Elect

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by haanne, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    Thank you for the reply Jake, I appreciate the effort put forth as it allows us to continue this dialog. (preciousmessage;22312)
    Hi J.M. I have read your reply on predestination. Basically the idea is "He loved and died only for a special group known as "the elect." The idea is that God has predestined some people to be saved; and because this is His "sovereign will," not even they can thwart what He has purposed to do.
    It's my understanding that nothing can thwart what God wants to do, if they can, God is not sovereign. My last post contained a sprinkling of Scripture that would suggest God does not need the permission of His creation to accomplish His plan, I'll add a few more to consider.Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Even the heathen who denies God is being ruled in the iniquity, Psa 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?When someone objected to this teaching Paul replied, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
    The gospel is good news if you are one of the lucky ones; but the others? Too bad.
    Orthodox Christianity, Bible believing Christianity, teaches and believes that God knows all things, this is called omniscience. One author put it this way, "God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn." A popular argument often put forward is that God elects unto salvation based on the foreknowledge of mans faith, and it's believed by the one offering this idea that it somehow takes God off the hook for the mass of mankind that rejects the Gospel. If is God omniscient [all knowing, never learning] as Biblical Christianity has always believed, then God created a mass of people that He knew would never accept the Gospel, and would only be created for hell. God would also know that a mass of mankind would never hear the Gospel to have the chance to accept it and they "...who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." Jude 4 In other words, "God created the wicked for the day of evil" Prov. 16:4
    The very last page of the bible contradicts this distorted view, "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come" And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." "Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth!" I would have to get off the "end of the earth" not to get that invitation. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" None of us has come from the planet Mars; it must be that He takes away my sin.
    Who are they who thrust? Who are they that desire God? You begin by begging the question, it's a very humanistic presupposition, that being, man wants to seek or desire God. That man thrusts after God. This simply cannot be supported with Scripture:Rom 3:10-23 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;What in Paul's description of man makes you think that man seeks God? Verse 11 clearly states that man does not seek God. In fact Paul makes it clear, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
    There are sixteen first person plural pronouns in Isaiah 53:1-6; each "we" and "us" and "our" must mean everybody, because it's the "we all" who have sinned. May God have mercy on our souls. Jake
    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.The context of Christ's death is given with "he bare the sin of many" and not all. If Christ bared the sins of all then all would be saved. The one time offer of Christ always results in the perfection of them for whom it was offered:Heb 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;Kriss, I not sure what you mean by your post?Thanks guys.jm
     
  2. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    (haanne;21564)
    So basically God picked some folks to help others through the end . The anti christ will set up his kingdom and The elect are sort of like Gods warriors for that time. So they will help those who are thinking the Devil is Jesus.
    Yes. They are the servants.
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him [John] to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...

    Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
    There is a difference between the servants and brothers who experience the tribulation. And again a distinction between the servant and the saint.
    The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great— and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
     
  3. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    To understand who the Elect are and why they were chosen you have to go back to the first earth age.God's Election stood with God in the First Earth Age against the rebellion and they overcame. In the end times of the Second Earth Age (our present generation), God's Election will once again stand with Him against satan and his deceived minions. "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." [Rom 11:4]. Now let's look at JeremiahJeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."Before Jeremiah was even concieved within his mothers womb, God is telling Jeremiah that He knew him, and before Jeremiah was born, God sanctified him, which is to set Jeremiah apart for God's mission. God ordained Jeremiah as a prophet, not only to Judah, by to the nations also. When we see the word "Nations" it is directed to the Gentile nations also. Jeremiah was a prophet to all nations. In this final generation, this is amplified into the fact of the kings and queens that serve their people in the service of the living God. Think on that phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee." To understand this phrase, you have to understand the three earth ages, as it is taught in II Peter 3, that there was an earth age before this present one, that this earth is millions of years old. The manuscripts, even from this King James declare it, and Jeremiah will take us to that first earth age in the fourth chapter. God foreknew Jeremiah, and knew that he was qualified to do the task that Jeremiah is about to be commissioned to do. Jeremiah had earned the right to fulfill that position, even in the first earth age. Another example would be Esau and JacobRomans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." While Esau was a small embryo in his mother Rebecca's womb, God hated Esau. If it sounds a little bit unfair, then you missed the point of the entire eighth chapter where God stipulated where He foreknew those that overcame at Satan's rebellion in the first earth age. Don't you think that God is judge enough to know who to hate and who to love. Esau had some very bad habits and one of those actions was to show disrespect for the heritage that God had given him. First of all Esau married out of His race of people, which God forbid. This made it impossible for Christ to be born through Esau because of the mixture and corruption of Esau's bloodline. Secondly Esau placed the value of the Abrahamic covenant at one bowl of red mush, what an insult. Esau put no value on the heritage of God, or any part of God's Word and promises. Esau did not wish to be an heir of our Heavenly Father.If Esau was that way in this earth age, he was probably far worse in the age that was. God doesn't hate someone without a cause. It is what we did in that first age that determines how God will use us,in this one.
     
  4. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (n2thelight;22512)
    To understand who the Elect are and why they were chosen you have to go back to the first earth age.
    :eek: What in the world are you talking about? Put down your Bullinger Bible and step away...hands where I can see'em...This is a perfect example of twisting, pick up a Bible without hyper-dispey notes in it. In Romans 9:11 we read that election is based on God's purpose and not on anything foreseen in Jacob or Esau. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" These ideas are very odd and unsettling and I can't believe I almost fell for them 4 or 5 years ago when I bought Bullinger's Bible. jm
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Its not Bullinger its scripture have you read 2 Peter 3: there are three world ages one past one now, and one two come be not ignorant of this fact. 5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] This earth age will be destroyed by fire as we all know So if you want to argue that this is talking about Noahs flood then you have to agree that Noah existed in a previous age and that is not biblical Noah existed at the first of this age So the scripture says there was and age before this one, and there will be one after this age. 3 world Ages
     
  6. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (kriss;22593)
    Its not Bullinger its scripture have you read 2 Peter 3: there are three world ages one past one now, and one two come be not ignorant of this fact. 5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] This earth age will be destroyed by fire as we all know So if you want to argue that this is talking about Noahs flood then you have to agree that Noah existed in a previous age and that is not biblical Noah existed at the first of this age So the scripture says there was and age before this one, and there will be one after this age. 3 world Ages
    This exegesis is unbiblical. It's fancy footwork from a fancy imagination.v. 5, 6 This is written against false teachers who deny God's intervention in history, Peter sites the flood.v. 7 The word of God which predicted the flood is also telling of a future day of judgment and destruction.v. 8 God is not subject to time.v. 9 God will fulfill His promise in consuming this age.And of course, the verse that places all of the previous verses in context, which you did not quote...2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.Ahhhhh, there it is. The Day of the Lord is in view.
     
  7. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;22330)
    Thank you for the reply Jake, I appreciate the effort put forth as it allows us to continue this dialog. It's my understanding that nothing can thwart what God wants to do, if they can, God is not sovereign. My last post contained a sprinkling of Scripture that would suggest God does not need the permission of His creation to accomplish His plan, I'll add a few more to consider.Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Even the heathen who denies God is being ruled in the iniquity, Psa 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?When someone objected to this teaching Paul replied, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"Orthodox Christianity, Bible believing Christianity, teaches and believes that God knows all things, this is called omniscience. One author put it this way, "God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn." A popular argument often put forward is that God elects unto salvation based on the foreknowledge of mans faith, and it's believed by the one offering this idea that it somehow takes God off the hook for the mass of mankind that rejects the Gospel. If is God omniscient [all knowing, never learning] as Biblical Christianity has always believed, then God created a mass of people that He knew would never accept the Gospel, and would only be created for hell. God would also know that a mass of mankind would never hear the Gospel to have the chance to accept it and they "...who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." Jude 4 In other words, "God created the wicked for the day of evil" Prov. 16:4 Who are they who thrust? Who are they that desire God? You begin by begging the question, it's a very humanistic presupposition, that being, man wants to seek or desire God. That man thrusts after God. This simply cannot be supported with Scripture:Rom 3:10-23 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;What in Paul's description of man makes you think that man seeks God? Verse 11 clearly states that man does not seek God. In fact Paul makes it clear, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.The context of Christ's death is given with "he bare the sin of many" and not all. If Christ bared the sins of all then all would be saved. The one time offer of Christ always results in the perfection of them for whom it was offered:Heb 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;Kriss, I not sure what you mean by your post?Thanks guys.jm
    "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" He gave Himself a ransom for all." Christ "is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." In what sense can He be the Saviour of those who do not believe? The text does NOT say He would like to be our Saviour, or perhaps may be, or possibly could be, if the sinner does something first, He is already "the Saviour of all men." We must never tell the sinner that Christ is not his Saviour until he first elects Him to be such. But that is your main goal, that is to really tell people that Christ is your Saviour but not theirs, that's not Good News, that's Bad News. Christ "hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." The reason is given in Hebrews 2:9. "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." "Selfishness would make a monopoly of eternal life. The Jewish nation thought to confine the benefits of salvation to their own nation; but the world's Redeemer showed them that salvation is like the air we breathe, like the atmosphere that belongs to the whole world. Every soul can be enriched by the love of God. The selfishness that would number Israel is an offense to God; for God's gift belongs not to a select few but to the whole word." End Quote. Jake
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (J.M.;22612)
    This exegesis is unbiblical. It's fancy footwork from a fancy imagination.v. 5, 6 This is written against false teachers who deny God's intervention in history, Peter sites the flood.v. 7 The word of God which predicted the flood is also telling of a future day of judgment and destruction.v. 8 God is not subject to time.v. 9 God will fulfill His promise in consuming this age.And of course, the verse that places all of the previous verses in context, which you did not quote...2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.Ahhhhh, there it is. The Day of the Lord is in view.
    How does that verse put anything into context it is simply saying that at the end of this age (the coming of the Lord )that this age will end in fire (melt) exactly like I said 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] Fire not Water you must deny scripture to claim anything other than 3 World ages.2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: No one is ignorant of Noahs flood even little children know the story of Noah, There is a flood story in every civilization on earth it is probably the best known story in history.only men are ignorant who think this is talking about Noah's Flood. 2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.obviously Noahs flood did not destroy the heavens that were before
     
  9. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"
    Propitiation means, “the act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.” That would mean all of God’s wrath has been appeased, propitiated sins cannot be punished, the only logical conclusion if this passage means what you say it means is universalism. Since we both know that not all are saved, that’s called heresy, then the above verse can’t be in reference to the propitiated sins of all mankind. It was common at the time of the writing of the Epistle to refer to gentiles as “the world.”
    He gave Himself a ransom for all." Christ "is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
    “…if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be “specially” true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others “without” believing?” The word “specially” limits this verse to those “that believe.” In no sense does God save all men. Theology isn’t a group of fragments, but a logical look at what the Bible has to say, it’s not man centered either but God centered...hence the word “theo.”
    In what sense can He be the Saviour of those who do not believe?
    Glad you asked! As far as I know since “specially those that believe” is consistent with the rest of Scripture and places limits in how we understand this verse, it would mean that God is the Saviour in a very simple and providential manner. Period. By God giving us life, creation to sustain it, preserving our lives, restraining us from doing further evil, etc. and for these reasons He is the Saviour of all men but not in an everlasting sense.
    The text does NOT say He would like to be our Saviour, or perhaps may be, or possibly could be, if the sinner does something first, He is already "the Saviour of all men."
    Utterly ignores that we are saved by Grace, here’s the kicker, through faith.
    We must never tell the sinner that Christ is not his Saviour until he first elects Him to be such.
    The Gospel is the historical proclaim of an accomplished act. Spurgeon the great Baptist preacher wrote something alone the lines of, “everyone is a Calvinist while on their knees begging God, it’s when they stand up that they have the problem.” Election is a Scriptural fact and as the Spirit leads these truths need to be learned and understood.
    But that is your main goal, that is to really tell people that Christ is your Saviour but not theirs, that's not Good News, that's Bad News.
    Wow, that’s presuming just a little about my motives isn’t it? It should be crystal clear that proclaiming the death burial and resurrection of Christ to those who reject the Gospel doesn’t bother the unbeliever one bit. It’s actually bad news to the unbeliever because it hardens their hearts, they don’t care that Christ died, they hate God as the Bible tells us.
    Christ "hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." The reason is given in Hebrews 2:9. "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
    I’m running out of time so I’ll quote a simple answer: Quote: "one" is not in the Greek. The word is pas which means "all" or "every." But "all" of whom? Verse 10 begins with "For" which means the following verses will explain the previous ones. In these verses the writer refers to "sons" (verse 10), "brethren" (verses 11 and 17), "children" (verses 14-15), and "the seed of Abraham" (verse 16). These terms best describe "those who are of faith," not people in general (see Galatians 3:6-16).[end quote]
    "Selfishness would make a monopoly of eternal life. The Jewish nation thought to confine the benefits of salvation to their own nation; but the world's Redeemer showed them that salvation is like the air we breathe, like the atmosphere that belongs to the whole world. Every soul can be enriched by the love of God. The selfishness that would number Israel is an offense to God; for God's gift belongs not to a select few but to the whole word."
    I see your quote and raise you one, Spurgeon: “What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man’s activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all - to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, ‘Lord, save, or we perish.’ We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, ‘I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,’ marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow.” [end quote]Thanks Jake.kriss, you're ignoring what I posted.v. 5, 6 This is written against false teachers who deny God's intervention in history, Peter sites the flood.v. 7 The word of God which predicted the flood is also telling of a future day of judgment and destruction.v. 8 God is not subject to time.v. 9 God will fulfill His promise in consuming this age.2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.I'll have to go with Ockham's razor on this one, sorry. Can you give me a list of Biblical scholars who believe this bunk? I'd like to investigate their backgrounds.*kriss, with all do respect can we stay on topic of the elect?Peace,jm
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This is the Elect they were choosen predestined why because they overcame Satan rebellion in the first earth age That is scripture make all the excuse you want to follow men That is Gods word if you refuse to believe God over men your choice.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. G4267 προγινώσκω progino¯sko¯ prog-in-oce'-ko >From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before). G4309 προορίζω proorizo¯ pro-or-id'-zo >From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate. Foreknow, from before, God knew us from before. Before what? the word foundation", Katabole Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: G2602 καταβολή katabole¯ kat-ab-ol-ay' >From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation. G2598 καταβάλλω kataballo¯ kat-ab-al'-lo >From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay. (We know this as the war in the 1st earth age, when satan revolted) The Then there are those who stood against satan at that rebellion and remained loyal to our Father. They "earned" the right to be "chosen", used by God. From these faithful sons, God chose His elect, present in this final generation, and the remnant. He chose the first to be last (to be born) and the last (chosen) to be first. These chosen were also justified, found blameless before God. This is their free will, by choosing to love our Father. (See Matt. 19:30, and Matt. Chpt. 20) Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. There is that word again, predestinate, determine before, ordain. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: There are other examples in the Bible that also show that God had decided beforehand certain things to come to pass. It was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" that Christ was taken and crucified by wicked hands, as it shows in: Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: God's elect, by the "foreknowledge" of God the Father, were to be sanctified by the Spirit. Notice in 1 Pet. 1:2 that this sanctification was dependent on them being in obedience, and by believing what the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ accomplished. 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. God destined them, they earned it, and HE judged them there in the 1st earth age. Glorified is to have the Will of God. Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. There’s that word “ordained” again. 2 Thessalonians 2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 1. Foreknow: The Greek word is proginosko, and means "to have knowledge beforehand; to foreknow." It is used 5 times in the NT: a. Acts 26:5 ("knew me from the beginning") b. Romans 8:29 ("foreknow") c. Romans 11:2 ("foreknew") d. 1 Peter 1:20 ("foreordained") e. 2 Peter 3:17 ("know these things before") 2. Predestinate: The Greek word is proorizo, and means "to decide beforehand; foreordain; appoint beforehand." It is used 6 times in the NT: a. Acts 4:28("determined before to be done") b. Romans 8:29 and 30 ("predestinate") c. 1 Corinthians 2:7 ("ordained before the world") d. Ephesians 1:5 and 11 ("predestinated") 3. Conformed: The Greek word is summorphos and means, "having the same form as another, similar, conformed to." It is used twice in the NT: a. Romans 8:29 ("conformed to") b. Philippians 3:21 ("fashioned like unto") Note: Revelation 13:8 the word "foundation", Katabole used in the Hebrew manuscripts is found in Jeremiah 4:18-28.
     
  12. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Thanks KrissAs I said in another post,for their own good, some are blinded to the truth
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Where can I put this at J.M. if there was no First Earth Age.Job 40:15 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.Job 40:16 - Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.Job 40:17 - He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.Job 40:18 - His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.Job 40:19 - He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.Job 40:20 - Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.Job 40:21 - He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.Job 40:22 - The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.Job 40:23 - Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.Job 40:24 - He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
     
  14. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    Ok, I disagree with kriss so my posts are deleted. Fine.jm
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    No your post was deleted because you broke the rules and attacked everyone personally
     
  16. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    (kriss;22650)
    No your post was deleted because you broke the rules and attacked everyone personally
    How would anyone judge if I attacked you personally or not if you remove my posts?[​IMG]I understand how personal theology can be, but offering a historical look as well as a Biblical critic of your theological view does not mean I'm attacking you. I've been a mod on different forums for the last 5 or 6 years and what I posted would not have been considered attacking you personally.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If you disagree with me disprove me in scripture Why dont you show me where it says there wasnt and age before this one.
     
  18. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    How can I show you that you're slipping Scripture in between other Scripture out of context in a way you'll understand?
     
  19. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    J.M.
    What in the world are you talking about? Put down your Bullinger Bible and step away...hands where I can see'em...This is a perfect example of twisting, pick up a Bible without hyper-dispey notes in it. In Romans 9:11 we read that election is based on God's purpose and not on anything foreseen in Jacob or Esau. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" These ideas are very odd and unsettling and I can't believe I almost fell for them 4 or 5 years ago when I bought Bullinger's Bible. jm
    Do you understand the verse you just quoted?Let me help you outRomans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"Then when the twins, Jacob and Esau were still in their mother's womb, neither having had the chance of doing either good or evil, God called one of those unborn babies to service. This deals with the election according to the purpose of God in His Will. The reason was to accomplish the writings of these Scriptures. It wasn't an accident that Jacob was loved and Esau was hated, nor was it an accident that you saw the light and repented. God has His hand on all creation and all of His children. God intercedes in the lives of His children, and there are no accidents when it comes to the actions of God. Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."This statement is not according to custom. In Genesis 25:23; "And the Lord said unto her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other; and the elder shall serve the younger."The younger was to serve the older, and many so called teachers tell how Jacob plotted to get the blessing, they just don't understand that it was God's order from before they were ever born that Jacob would be the superior.I don't study from Bullinger's Bible,as a matter of fact I did'nt know he had oneLet me ask you a question,how and why could God have hated Esau before he was born?Let's take a look at GenGenesis is the first book of the Bible, and was written by Moses. In Hebrew it is called "the Book of the Beginnings", however in the Greek Genesis is called "the Book of the Generations, and Creation." The book of Genesis and the book of Revelation have much more in common than most people think. The book of Genesis is a record of the beginning of this earth age, while the book of Revelation is a record of prophecy as to the end, or destruction of this flesh earth age. Genesis records Satan's first rebellion, and Revelation records Satan's last rebellion. Then in Genesis we find where sin enters into the world in this earth age, and Revelation reveals it's final doom at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.The Book of Genesis is a key to understanding the rest of the Scriptures. When Jesus talks about the planting of the seed, and the offspring of that seed [children]; we will see in Genesis the meaning of this and find out just what Jesus was teaching us through His parables. In fact we will see in Matthew 13:35 where Jesus is teaching in parables the secrets of the prophets of the Old Testament. They were secrets hidden and not understood by mankind from the foundation of the world [Kosmos; in the Greek}.The name "Genesis" is not even a Hebrew word, but a Greek rendition out of the Septuagint, which is part of the Torah. The original Hebrew name of this book was "The Beginnings".Those that stand and use this Word of God as the basis for placing the age of the earth at 6000 years, just don't understand the original Hebrew text. It is easy to document that this earth is many millions of years old. However, the traces of Adamic man only can be traced to about that 6000 year period of time. Now lets go the the Scriptures and document some of these statements.Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.In Proverbs 8:22 we read of wisdom speaking through Solomon. Wisdom is God for all wisdom is of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before the works of old." What works of old could this be? It is the old earth age, spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6. Proverbs 8:23; "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." This is stating that wisdom was with God, and He possessed me.Proverbs 8:24; "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water." Before there was any need of an abyss, or pit, and the water to fill them, God's wisdom was there.Proverbs 8:25; "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Before the earth even took on it's present form, with the high mountains and rolling hills, God's wisdom was there. Friend, God's wisdom played His part in the creation of this earth, and all wisdom comes from God.Proverbs 8:26; "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the high part [beginning] of the dust of the world." God was there in wisdom before that first little atom, or speck of dust of the earth was formed. Before the laws of God that control the energy forces came into being, God's wisdom was there. Proverbs 8:27; "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass [circle] upon the face of the depth:"Proverbs 8:28; "And when established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"Proverbs 8:29; "When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the fountains of the earth:"In other words, there was land, and oceans, and fields and lakes, and God set His commandment that they should be separated through the "compass" which He set. Today we call it "gravity". This is the force which separates all water from dry land. When the waves hit the rocks of the shoreline, they resend back into the sea by the gravitational forces of the earth. God allowed Job to be tested by both Satan and his fellow man, in the first thirty seven chapters of the Book of Job. However, after 37 chapters of man's nonsense, ramblings, and bad advice by those around Job, God spoke to Job. Job 38:1, 2; "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"Job had been tested to the point of losing His entire family, all his property, and had been inflicted by sores and sickness, yet, he did not curse God. He was in a poor frame of mind when God again came to Job. Job 38:3; Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me." God told Job to straighten up and be a man, and listen to what He is about to tell Job. Then God spells out to Job how He laid out the foundations of the earth and the heaven, and all matters concerning them. Then for the rest of Job 38 and continuing in Job 39 we can see the same wisdom we read about in Proverbs 8. God told Job how He put the universe all together. Our God is infinite in wisdom and power, Yet His love for His children is so great that He allowed Himself to be killed as a man, on the cross at Calvary. In this love that He demonstrated for His children, He made it possible that we could approach Him as His child for our every need.This humbled Job before God, as it should to each of us, and He fell apart [Job 40]. God once again told Job to stand "like a man, and give answer to Him". Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin"."Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two. We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved. When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that. II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire. II Peter 3:8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."One week is 7000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is "the Millennium age". The Millennium age is the thousand years after Jesus Christ returns to earth at the seventh trumpet to establish his kingdom here on earth. All souls at that time will not be in the flesh bodies, but in another dimension. They will exist in their incorruptible bodies, spoken of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.II Peter 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." That means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about. II Peter 3:10; "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.""A thief in the night" is an figure of speech meaning that Christ will come at an unexpected time. This sounds like a scary time, but what does it say in in the original text, being translated to English? The "elements" are all the "rudiments"; that is the evil spirits, all evil men are part of those rudiments, as well as all forms of idolatry. They will all burn at their appointed time. These elements are not the elements that go to make up the physical properties of this earth. This is addressed only to those things that offend our Heavenly Father. So we have witnessed in II Peter 3 that there are three earth ages, and three heaven ages that correspond with the earth age periods of time. We see also in Jeremiah 4 that there is another witness to the fact of these three earth ages.Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."How many people really know God's Word? There are very few that can quote you anything from the Bible, except those parts that can give them personal gain. The translators were kind to use the word "sottish", for the word means just plain "stupid", or "silly". The nature of mankind today is to "make a buck any way that you can". Their minds are evil constantly, as they were in the days of Noah. However, in the ways of goodness, and doing right, there is a void. Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time. Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice. So we have documented from the Bible that there was an earth age prior to this earth age we now live in. God created that first earth age in good standing to be inhabited, as it was written in Isaiah 45:18; then after this it became "without form and void" [in the Hebrew, "Tohu va bohu"].Why? Because Satan brought sin into the world of that first earth age. and that sin was so great that one third of all God's children followed Satan, and that sin brought God's anger upon the whole world. It was then that Satan was sentenced to the death of his soul. This is why Satan is called the "son of perdition" in II Thessalonians 2:3, and John 17:12. Satan refused to repent, as God allowed him the time to get right with Him.Verse three starts after the first earth age, after the overthrow by Satan [The Chabal], and after the total destruction of the first earth age and all life forms on it
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (J.M.;22655)
    How can I show you that you're slipping Scripture in between other Scripture out of context in a way you'll understand?
    Why dont you show me what scripture I slipped in I gave you 2 peter 3
     
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