Thank you for the reply Jake, I appreciate the effort put forth as it allows us to continue this dialog. (preciousmessage;22312)
Hi J.M. I have read your reply on predestination. Basically the idea is "He loved and died only for a special group known as "the elect." The idea is that God has predestined some people to be saved; and because this is His "sovereign will," not even they can thwart what He has purposed to do.
It's my understanding that nothing can thwart what God wants to do, if they can, God is not sovereign. My last post contained a sprinkling of Scripture that would suggest God does not need the permission of His creation to accomplish His plan, I'll add a few more to consider.Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Even the heathen who denies God is being ruled in the iniquity, Psa 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?When someone objected to this teaching Paul replied, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
The gospel is good news if you are one of the lucky ones; but the others? Too bad.
Orthodox Christianity, Bible believing Christianity, teaches and believes that God knows all things, this is called omniscience. One author put it this way, "God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn." A popular argument often put forward is that God elects unto salvation based on the foreknowledge of mans faith, and it's believed by the one offering this idea that it somehow takes God off the hook for the mass of mankind that rejects the Gospel. If is God omniscient [all knowing, never learning] as Biblical Christianity has always believed, then God created a mass of people that He knew would never accept the Gospel, and would only be created for hell. God would also know that a mass of mankind would never hear the Gospel to have the chance to accept it and they "...who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." Jude 4 In other words, "God created the wicked for the day of evil" Prov. 16:4
The very last page of the bible contradicts this distorted view, "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come" And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." "Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth!" I would have to get off the "end of the earth" not to get that invitation. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" None of us has come from the planet Mars; it must be that He takes away my sin.
Who are they who thrust? Who are they that desire God? You begin by begging the question, it's a very humanistic presupposition, that being, man wants to seek or desire God. That man thrusts after God. This simply cannot be supported with Scripture:Rom 3:10-23 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;What in Paul's description of man makes you think that man seeks God? Verse 11 clearly states that man does not seek God. In fact Paul makes it clear, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
There are sixteen first person plural pronouns in Isaiah 53:1-6; each "we" and "us" and "our" must mean everybody, because it's the "we all" who have sinned. May God have mercy on our souls. Jake
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.The context of Christ's death is given with "he bare the sin of many" and not all. If Christ bared the sins of all then all would be saved. The one time offer of Christ always results in the perfection of them for whom it was offered:Heb 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;Kriss, I not sure what you mean by your post?Thanks guys.jm
Hi J.M. I have read your reply on predestination. Basically the idea is "He loved and died only for a special group known as "the elect." The idea is that God has predestined some people to be saved; and because this is His "sovereign will," not even they can thwart what He has purposed to do.
It's my understanding that nothing can thwart what God wants to do, if they can, God is not sovereign. My last post contained a sprinkling of Scripture that would suggest God does not need the permission of His creation to accomplish His plan, I'll add a few more to consider.Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Even the heathen who denies God is being ruled in the iniquity, Psa 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?When someone objected to this teaching Paul replied, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
The gospel is good news if you are one of the lucky ones; but the others? Too bad.
Orthodox Christianity, Bible believing Christianity, teaches and believes that God knows all things, this is called omniscience. One author put it this way, "God possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. God has never learned and cannot learn." A popular argument often put forward is that God elects unto salvation based on the foreknowledge of mans faith, and it's believed by the one offering this idea that it somehow takes God off the hook for the mass of mankind that rejects the Gospel. If is God omniscient [all knowing, never learning] as Biblical Christianity has always believed, then God created a mass of people that He knew would never accept the Gospel, and would only be created for hell. God would also know that a mass of mankind would never hear the Gospel to have the chance to accept it and they "...who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." Jude 4 In other words, "God created the wicked for the day of evil" Prov. 16:4
The very last page of the bible contradicts this distorted view, "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come" And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." "Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth!" I would have to get off the "end of the earth" not to get that invitation. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" None of us has come from the planet Mars; it must be that He takes away my sin.
Who are they who thrust? Who are they that desire God? You begin by begging the question, it's a very humanistic presupposition, that being, man wants to seek or desire God. That man thrusts after God. This simply cannot be supported with Scripture:Rom 3:10-23 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;What in Paul's description of man makes you think that man seeks God? Verse 11 clearly states that man does not seek God. In fact Paul makes it clear, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
There are sixteen first person plural pronouns in Isaiah 53:1-6; each "we" and "us" and "our" must mean everybody, because it's the "we all" who have sinned. May God have mercy on our souls. Jake
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.The context of Christ's death is given with "he bare the sin of many" and not all. If Christ bared the sins of all then all would be saved. The one time offer of Christ always results in the perfection of them for whom it was offered:Heb 10:10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;Kriss, I not sure what you mean by your post?Thanks guys.jm