The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Zao is life]

I think the problem, GB, is that ~ and not that anyone means to do this, but ~ some folks have some preconceived idea about what it means to be bound and/or sealed and just won't see it for what it is in Scripture. I think it could be somewhat helpful ~ somewhat at least ~ to imagine a prison inmate, who can still be influential to folks on the outside even while imprisoned, even in very manipulative and/or malevolent ways... but is completely unable to extort, or rape, or murder, or whatever crime he or she committed. It's an earthly example, but still applicable.

Grace and peace to you.

I think more likely the problem is that some folks have a preconceived idea about what it means for Satan to be bound, and though they can provide no verse or passage that plainly states that Satan was 'bound' at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ, they just won't see it for what it is in scripture - the fact that Satan is no more restricted in his ability to deceive and and attempt to prevent the advance of the Kingdom of God since Calvary, than he was before Calvary.

I think more likely the problem is that some folks have conflated the binding of Satan with the destruction of Satan's works and power over death (which does not last only for a thousand symbolic years only to get reversed for a brief period called "Satan's little season").

Hence they conflate the binding of Satan with the defeat of Satan, despite all the following biblical facts:-

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

So I think more likely the problem is that some folks just won't see it for what it is in scripture, even though they can provide no verse or passage that plainly states that Satan was 'bound' at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ, and so they falsely equate Satan's defeat at the cross of Christ with his binding (even though, for some reason, they do not also equate Satan's defeat with his destruction in the lake of fire - which they believe still lies in some future time).​

 

[ewq1938]

the fact that Satan is no more restricted in his ability to deceive and and attempt to prevent the advance of the Kingdom of God since Calvary, than he was before Calvary.
​

Satan is allowed far more power and ability to deceive after Christ left this world than before and according to Rev 12-13 he is forced out of heaven which makes him wrathful and able to not only start a war against Christians but successfully overcome them and kill them! That's God's plan. The bible DOES NOT describe satan as strong, then weaker and weaker as time nears the end, but shows Giod allowing satan to be more powerful than ever in the past, far surpassing the authority granted him in the book of Job.

To the reader: Don't worry, God is very much in control and like what happened to Christ, the enemy will overcome and defeat and kill but it is temporary and will seal his own fate in the end because killing us in this world is really nothing. In Job satan wasn't BIG and God small. God was still in charge and he is now, as satan slowly gains more and more control over the world and the people in it. We are Job and his family in this life. Some will be killed and some will suffer terrible things but stay faithful and there is a just reward in the end.

 

[Zao is life]

I must say that, what you have posted above is the thinking of men (as men of the world think) through the lens of time as opposed to the the timeless terms of God, by which such matters must be considered in order to have understanding.

You "must" say? What is it that forced you to say the above? Was someone holding you at gunpoint? Please don't be offended but your entire introduction to what you eventually said in your post can be summed up with the following:-

1. I'm better informed than you or anyone who disagrees with what I am about to say in these matters, because
2. these things are spiritually discerned and it takes wisdom from God to understand them, which I have more than anyone else who disagrees with me. Therefore
3. If you disagree with anything I say when I finally get to my point, it's because you think with the mind of man and only I have the guidance of the Holy Spirit on these matters, since I'm wiser than you.

Then you continue on the above note with the following, still implying that anyone who disagrees with anything you will eventually say, it's because they are not as wise and spiritually informed on these matters as you are, and are not able to receive what you believe the truth to be:-​

If you can receive it--this is what Paul referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth." In other words, the scriptures tell the truth of God, but they too for the most part are given through that same lens of time-released revelations "here a little, there a little" unto the end, and therefore must be translated back through that time-timeless chasm (or "rightly divided"). Each truth then, whether worldly or godly, is only true according to its rightful essence. Such is the mystery of God.

In this way, the scriptures then describe an uncommon narrative held in mystery "as He declared to His servants the prophet" until just prior to the sounding of the seventh angel marking the end of days/times. This is that time foretold, and the means by which I have revealed it to you.

You have revealed NOTHING to anyone. It's is CHRIST who revealed EVERYTHING to HIS CHURCHES through HIS APOSTLES.

"Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John, who bore record of the Word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all the things that he saw." Revelation 1:1-2

Are you John or one of the other apostles whose writings YOU are about to reveal the meaning of to us? Are you the Holy Spirit who gives the understanding to each of His saints in Christ's churches as HE pleases?

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." -- Revelation 10:7

This is what YOU have just said about the above verse:​

If you can receive it--this is what Paul referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth." ..

.. In this way, the scriptures then describe an uncommon narrative held in mystery "as He declared to His servants the prophet" until just prior to the sounding of the seventh angel marking the end of days/times. This is that time foretold, and the means by which I have revealed it to you.

Are you claiming to be the one who is about to "finish the mystery of God, as He has declared to His servants the prophets."?

If your answer to the above question is "Yes" (which it certainly seems to be, going on your choice of words), then let it be known to you sir, that YOU are a FALSE PROPHET who has been given NO MORE understanding than the one in Christ's flock who has been given THE LEAST. Far less than the one who has the least, in fact.

FINALLY, after your absolutely prideful, puffed up introduction to your post, you actually got to expressing what you believe regarding the scriptures:

Regarding the end vs. the return of Christ: He does not return physically but spiritually, as He said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me." Meaning (as He also said) "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which is to say, the event occurs within, just as "the kingdom of God is within you." And to clarify, after Paul addressed the matter by generalizing by groups, he then said, "but each one in his own order" personally.

That's true for the current Age only, in which the spiritual Kingdom of Christ exists in this world of darkness. It's not true however, for the Age to come, after the return of Christ, in which there will no longer be this kind of darkness, complete with its false prophets and false teachers abounding in the churches of Christ. This is what the apostles and true prophets of God taught - and it's all there, in the scriptures for all to read, though you argue against their words, while claiming to have more understanding than all others, and while at the very least implying that you are a "teacher of the mystery of God".​

Thus, the idea of a mass one-time event...is the foolishness of natural men assuming all things by their own understanding.

The above is a false statement, because it contradicts all that Jesus, the Son of God said about His return, as well as all that God's true prophets and apsotles have taught, as recorded in the scriptures.
​

Personally, I'd much rather be considered by you to be "a foolish natural man assuming things by my own understanding" and be taught - not of you - but of the prophets and apostles, and the Holy Spirit, who gives me the understanding of the scriptures, which I ask GOD (not you) for, as well as by the real Teachers in the churches who (unlike you) likewise are taught by the same:

1. By the prophets and apostles; and
2. The Holy Spirit.
​

The only thing about everything else in your entire self-exultant post that is true for this Age in which we now live, is the following:

In which case, the truth according to God's own terms, is we all individually come into His presence from the beginning to the end

.. from the beginning to the end of this Age, until the return of Christ. Then comes the end of this Age.

The rest of your sentence, which you posted after the above, was again a mixture of truth with your error.

 

[rwb]

Yes, I agree. I understand where you’re coming from, I used to be Amil at one time but now I lean towards preterist.

I tend to learn more when conversations are good natured even when we disagree on things. In the few posts of yours that I’ve read so far I see this quality. I try to be that way but sometimes it’s not easy.

Interesting you moved in this direction. I'm Amil that moved from Premil, but as I learned more through my study of Scripture I now understand how partial preterism is not far from what I have come to believe is written in the Olivet Discourse. While I would not label myself full preterit or partial, I have come to believe the words Christ spoke to His first century disciples have application for them as well as for ALL of His disciples to follow.

The things most certainly being directed to those first century Jewish disciples center around the literal destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The wrath of God most certainly did come against the nation of Israel in 70 AD, which brought a complete end to the Old Covenant ceremonial and sacrificial system.

But false christs, wars, persecutions, famines, pestilences and earthquakes have been on-going from the beginning and part of redemptive history for all disciples of Christ. While some of what is written regarding the Armies surrounding Jerusalem and killing many was exclusively directed to Jerusalem of Old, I believe the apostate nation had become an abomination to God long before it was utterly destroyed. The final abomination that made Israel of Old to be a desolation unto God was their rejection of Christ and killing the Son of Glory.

It was the crucifixion and after that the persecution that would come against the disciples as we proclaim the Gospel unto all the earth. The problem I find with partial preterism is how it focuses on Israel of Old and tries to find literal fulfillment for them. What cannot be understood as having already been literally fulfilled, the preterit has determined must be spiritually understood. IMO that is clearly forcing the Bible to fit our preconceived doctrine. The preterit seems to forget that Christ came to usher in a spiritual Kingdom, and much of what is written regarding eschatology was, is and shall be spiritually fulfilled with literal consequences, because they are too consumed with biblical eschatology being about Jerusalem of Old.

IMO biblical eschatology found through the Olivet Discourse as well as, but not limited to the book of the Revelation must be interpreted as Christ giving instructions to His disciples as they build His eternal Church through proclaiming His Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit to all the nations of the world.

 

[rwb]

Satan is allowed far more power and ability to deceive after Christ left this world than before and according to Rev 12-13 he is forced out of heaven which makes him wrathful and able to not only start a war against Christians but successfully overcome them and kill them! That's God's plan. The bible DOES NOT describe satan as strong, then weaker and weaker as time nears the end, but shows Giod allowing satan to be more powerful than ever in the past, far surpassing the authority granted him in the book of Job.

To the reader: Don't worry, God is very much in control and like what happened to Christ, the enemy will overcome and defeat and kill but it is temporary and will seal his own fate in the end because killing us in this world is really nothing. In Job satan wasn't BIG and God small. God was still in charge and he is now, as satan slowly gains more and more control over the world and the people in it. We are Job and his family in this life. Some will be killed and some will suffer terrible things but stay faithful and there is a just reward in the end.

But what Satan no longer has the power to do is to deceive the nations into believing the only fate for humanity is DEATH! With the advent of Christ coming to earth, Satan only has power to hold in bondage to fear of death those who remain in unbelief. Satan's power to deceive has most certainly ended through the greater power of Christ.

The problem for those of you who don't believe Christ has already bound Satan is that you imagine when he is bound there will be peace on this earth. Even a casual reading of Scripture proves there shall never be peace on this earth as long as sinners are on this earth.

Btw Rev 12 shows us that it was at the birth of Christ that Satan being ejected from heaven was sent to this earth. Where he has been working to prevent the spread of the Gospel because he knows that when man hears the Gospel proclaimed some will turn to Christ for everlasting life, and have no more fear of death. The angels of God in heaven knowing that Satan's coming to earth was with great wrath that he would use to try to keep the Kingdom of God from being complete, because he knows that will be the end for him. For this reason the angels in heaven rejoice as they proclaim woe to the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[rwb]

I think more likely the problem is that some folks have a preconceived idea about what it means for Satan to be bound, and though they can provide no verse or passage that plainly states that Satan was 'bound' at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ, they just won't see it for what it is in scripture - the fact that Satan is no more restricted in his ability to deceive and and attempt to prevent the advance of the Kingdom of God since Calvary, than he was before Calvary.

I think more likely the problem is that some folks have conflated the binding of Satan with the destruction of Satan's works and power over death (which does not last only for a thousand symbolic years only to get reversed for a brief period called "Satan's little season").

Hence they conflate the binding of Satan with the defeat of Satan, despite all the following biblical facts:-

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

So I think more likely the problem is that some folks just won't see it for what it is in scripture, even though they can provide no verse or passage that plainly states that Satan was 'bound' at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ, and so they falsely equate Satan's defeat at the cross of Christ with his binding (even though, for some reason, they do not also equate Satan's defeat with his destruction in the lake of fire - which they believe still lies in some future time).​

I think the reason so many deny that Satan was bound by the advent of Christ is because they don't understand what being bound that "he should no longer deceive the nations" means. We must understand how his binding is not literal, but symbolic and it is specific in purpose. Satan is not bound to remove all deception from all the earth. In fact, his ejection from heaven at the birth of Christ tells us Satan is cast to the earth with GREAT wrath to persecute the Church and Her seeds. He had to be spiritually bound, not physically bound because he had power to hold people of the nations who had never heard of Christ in bondage to fear of death.

Though Satan still has power over this world, and all who are in unbelief by holding them throughout the nations (Gentiles), who had never heard of the Savior in bondage to fear of death, that bondage is broken when the Gospel is preached and heard and people throughout the nations obtain eternal life through Christ. If Satan is not bound the nations of the world (Gentiles) then death would still have power over them because Satan also had the power before Christ to take away the word of the Kingdom that is sown in the hearts of those who hear but don't understand.

Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We know that Satan is now bound, since the advent of Christ, because the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth and the spiritual Kingdom of God has grown and shall become an innumerable multitude from people of all nations, tribes, kindreds, and tongues. Had Christ not come and bound Satan by shedding His blood to atone for sin, and resurrect from the dead to prove He has all power over death, and that all who come to Him have no reason to fear dying because death of our flesh simply takes us ALIVE from our flesh a spiritual body of believers to heaven.

 

[Davidpt]

But what Satan no longer has the power to do is to deceive the nations into believing the only fate for humanity is DEATH! With the advent of Christ coming to earth, Satan only has power to hold in bondage to fear of death those who remain in unbelief. Satan's power to deceive has most certainly ended through the greater power of Christ.

The problem for those of you who don't believe Christ has already bound Satan is that you imagine when he is bound there will be peace on this earth. Even a casual reading of Scripture proves there shall never be peace on this earth as long as sinners are on this earth.

Btw Rev 12 shows us that it was at the birth of Christ that Satan being ejected from heaven was sent to this earth. Where he has been working to prevent the spread of the Gospel because he knows that when man hears the Gospel proclaimed some will turn to Christ for everlasting life, and have no more fear of death. The angels of God in heaven knowing that Satan's coming to earth was with great wrath that he would use to try to keep the Kingdom of God from being complete, because he knows that will be the end for him. For this reason the angels in heaven rejoice as they proclaim woe to the inhabitants of the earth.

Speaking of Revelation 12 the fact it covers the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amils insist satan is bound in the pit, that should mean we should be able to pinpoint in Revelation 12 when he is initially bound and when he is initially loosed. Except I don't see anything in that entire chapter which covers the same 2000 years that Amils insist satan is bound, that gives the impression satan is bound. Let's look at this chapter then.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


What is satan's status at this point in time? Is he bound? Is he unable to deceive nations at this point in time?


It seems to me that up until this war in heaven where satan gets cast to the earth, he couldn't possibly be bound prior to this war. His binding has to take place after he is cast out of heaven. Yet, all I see is a loose satan when he is cast to the earth, not a bound one. Look at all of the things he does once he sees he is cast to the earth, verses 13-17. Not to mention, verse 12 tells us---Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Amils typically place the casting of satan out of heaven unto the earth as having happened 2000 years ago. Which would be the beginning of the thousand years per their view. How does it make sense if satan is bound 2000 years ago, that while he is in a bound state, he has great wrath, so, woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time?

Keeping in mind, prior to verse 12 satan still had access to heaven, as if it makes sense that while he had access to heaven this is when he is bound in the pit a thousand years, and equally, as if it makes sense that when he is cast to the earth, having great wrath, that this is the beginning of his thousand year binding in the pit. IOW, there is zero in all of Revelation 12 which is covering the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils insist satan is in the pit, that can fit with what is recorded in Revelation 20:1-3.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Does it sound like satan is having great wrath here, so, woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you? Maybe this part might sound like that---and after that he must be loosed a little season, except that is meaning when he is loosed, and that Amils have Revelation 12:12 meaning at the beginning of his thousand year binding, not at the end of it. Keeping in mind, before he is cast to the earth per Revelation 12:12 he still had access to heaven. IOW, there is no logical place in all of Revelation 12 that fits a thousand year binding. And yes, I know Amils don't take the thousand years in the literal sense, but that is beside the point.

 

[grafted branch]

Interesting you moved in this direction. I'm Amil that moved from Premil, but as I learned more through my study of Scripture I now understand how partial preterism is not far from what I have come to believe is written in the Olivet Discourse. While I would not label myself full preterit or partial, I have come to believe the words Christ spoke to His first century disciples have application for them as well as for ALL of His disciples to follow.

The things most certainly being directed to those first century Jewish disciples center around the literal destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The wrath of God most certainly did come against the nation of Israel in 70 AD, which brought a complete end to the Old Covenant ceremonial and sacrificial system.

But false christs, wars, persecutions, famines, pestilences and earthquakes have been on-going from the beginning and part of redemptive history for all disciples of Christ. While some of what is written regarding the Armies surrounding Jerusalem and killing many was exclusively directed to Jerusalem of Old, I believe the apostate nation had become an abomination to God long before it was utterly destroyed. The final abomination that made Israel of Old to be a desolation unto God was their rejection of Christ and killing the Son of Glory.

It was the crucifixion and after that the persecution that would come against the disciples as we proclaim the Gospel unto all the earth. The problem I find with partial preterism is how it focuses on Israel of Old and tries to find literal fulfillment for them. What cannot be understood as having already been literally fulfilled, the preterit has determined must be spiritually understood. IMO that is clearly forcing the Bible to fit our preconceived doctrine. The preterit seems to forget that Christ came to usher in a spiritual Kingdom, and much of what is written regarding eschatology was, is and shall be spiritually fulfilled with literal consequences, because they are too consumed with biblical eschatology being about Jerusalem of Old.

IMO biblical eschatology found through the Olivet Discourse as well as, but not limited to the book of the Revelation must be interpreted as Christ giving instructions to His disciples as they build His eternal Church through proclaiming His Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit to all the nations of the world.

One reason I moved towards preterist was that I saw enough things being fulfilled in the first century and that these fulfillments could possibly be a foreshadowing of still future events. The more I studied this the more things I saw that maybe didn’t qualify as being a fulfillment of prophecy but could qualify as a foreshadow of a future event.

The big question is how can we tell if something has been fulfilled or not. An example would be Matthew 11:2-6 where John the Baptist questioned whether Jesus was the one or if they should look for another. The answer was to observe what was heard and seen.

Now every view except maybe a full preterist has something that still is going to be fulfilled so the “Bible alone and in its entirety” view seems good, but it doesn’t quite work as even full preterist rely on the historian Josephus.

Since every view must rely on observation of events outside the written word, it seems logical to start with first century history and go forward from there. I’m still currently in this process of examining these things.

 

[Davidpt]

I think the reason so many deny that Satan was bound by the advent of Christ is because they don't understand what being bound that "he should no longer deceive the nations" means. We must understand how his binding is not literal, but symbolic and it is specific in purpose. Satan is not bound to remove all deception from all the earth. In fact, his ejection from heaven at the birth of Christ tells us Satan is cast to the earth with GREAT wrath to persecute the Church and Her seeds. He had to be spiritually bound, not physically bound because he had power to hold people of the nations who had never heard of Christ in bondage to fear of death.

Though Satan still has power over this world, and all who are in unbelief by holding them throughout the nations (Gentiles), who had never heard of the Savior in bondage to fear of death, that bondage is broken when the Gospel is preached and heard and people throughout the nations obtain eternal life through Christ. If Satan is not bound the nations of the world (Gentiles) then death would still have power over them because Satan also had the power before Christ to take away the word of the Kingdom that is sown in the hearts of those who hear but don't understand.

Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We know that Satan is now bound, since the advent of Christ, because the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth and the spiritual Kingdom of God has grown and shall become an innumerable multitude from people of all nations, tribes, kindreds, and tongues. Had Christ not come and bound Satan by shedding His blood to atone for sin, and resurrect from the dead to prove He has all power over death, and that all who come to Him have no reason to fear dying because death of our flesh simply takes us ALIVE from our flesh a spiritual body of believers to heaven.

Roger, one reason why some of us can't get on board with the first advent being what binds satan, is because what the first advent does to satan is permanent and can't be reversed. The thousand years are not permanent. Which would mean that anything the 1st advent did to cause satan to be bound would be reversed when he is loosed.

Some argue, the only thing his binding does is prevent him from deceiving the nations. IOW, it doesn't prevent him from doing other things, it only prevents him from deceiving the nations. But, since his binding is likened to being in prison, if we then compare to the real world, for example, the following. A man that has been driving around drunk is arrested and sentenced to jail time in order to prevent him from driving around drunk. Is that the only thing it prevents him from doing? If he has a job, can he still go to work while in jail? If he has a wife that he sleeps in the same bed with every night, can he do that while he is in jail? Obviously then, this shows that if someone is imprisoned in order to prevent them from doing something in particular that they were doing, this is not the only thing it prevents them from doing while imprisoned, though.

 

[rwb]

Speaking of Revelation 12 the fact it covers the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amils insist satan is bound in the pit, that should mean we should be able to pinpoint in Revelation 12 when he is initially bound and when he is initially loosed. Except I don't see anything in that entire chapter which covers the same 2000 years that Amils insist satan is bound, that gives the impression satan is bound. Let's look at this chapter then.

Where is the pit that he is bound in David?

When Christ was born the war that took place in heaven ejected Satan from heaven and cast him to the earth where he is now bound as king of the bottomless pit. What is the bottomless pit if it is not bound to be ruler over the dead? Satan is bound to this earth in his pit of death, and can no longer freely roam from heaven to earth as he once did (see Job). It is written by him being cast out of heaven and to the earth he is no longer able to accuse the saints before God day and night. Why? Because in Christ the saints have been set free from bondage to fear of death Satan once had power to hold them in. Christ defeated death through promise from the foundation of the world, being, according to promise the slain Lamb who would take away sin and defeat death. When Christ was born and Satan was cast to earth, that bound him to the pit of death that is in the earth, it is the place of the dead, the grave. He isn't literally bound with literal chains in a literal pit. This is all symbolic language that we might know the battle between Satan and Christ is not physical warfare but spiritual with physical consequences.

If we don't understand the binding of Satan, how can we ever understand the spiritual Kingdom that Christ came to earth with that is entered through Christ's Spirit within when we are born again?

Prior to the first advent of Christ the only nation to have heard of the Messiah who would come to be their Saviour was the nation of Israel. Which is why it is written that Satan is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations (Gentiles). Prior to the birth of Christ, Satan had access to the realm of heaven, and only a remnant of the Jews believed the prophecy about a coming Messiah/Saviour. Because the Holy Spirit was not yet permanently within believers, these first Jewish saints were required to make blood sacrifices again and again. That left them without confidence that their faith in the Messiah to come was eternal. This is how Satan was able to accuse them before God day and night. The Covenant ordained in heaven from the foundation of the world could not give the saints of old assurance of life after death because death had not yet been defeated through the resurrection of Christ.

I'll stop here for now David, because I'm running out of time now, but I would very much like to continue our discussion.

 

[ScottA]

You "must" say? What is it that forced you to say the above? Was someone holding you at gunpoint? Please don't be offended but your entire introduction to what you eventually said in your post can be summed up with the following:-

1. I'm better informed than you or anyone who disagrees with what I am about to say in these matters, because
2. these things are spiritually discerned and it takes wisdom from God to understand them, which I have more than anyone else who disagrees with me. Therefore
3. If you disagree with anything I say when I finally get to my point, it's because you think with the mind of man and only I have the gidance of the Holy Spirit on these matters, since I'm wiser than you.

Then you continue on the above note with the following, still implying that anyone who disagrees with anything you will eventually say, it's because they are not as wise and spiritually informed on these matters as you are, and are not able to receive what you believe the truth to be:-

As long as you are going to accuse me--one thing at a time:

You are obviously offended...after I said not to be. The truth should not offend, but often does--why? Because it goes against what someone may believe to the contrary, and yet that is the testimony of reality throughout biblical history that shows that even the chosen of God killed the messengers He sends. Good job, nothing new under the sun.

But to answer your question and accusations, "I must say?"--what's the real problem here--you don't like what you hear? I already addressed that. But no, it is not as you say, I was not forced, but if I am to give an answer in season or out of season--I must tell the truth. Period.

As for your obviously being offended by the very idea that someone might be better informed than you--again, certainly you are no different than those who killed the prophets. But more importantly, you are also completely wrong about how the truth is revealed from God. What did you expect, a grand assembly where all the good people of God get all the same information as a group, directly from God Himself? Is that the biblical method? Do you need to go back and recount just how it actually occurs? Obviously you do. And no, God has not and does not bestow such a task upon the super spiritual or learned--but upon the least of men, upon major offenders, even upon and ass.

I may not answer your next comments--why should I entertain a dagger wielding accuser? We'll see.

 

[ScottA]

You have revealed NOTHING to anyone. It's is CHRIST who revealed EVERYTHING to HIS CHURCHES through HIS APOSTLES.

"Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John, who bore record of the Word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all the things that he saw." Revelation 1:1-2

Are you John or one of the other apostles whose writings YOU are about to reveal the meaning of to us? Are you the Holy Spirit who gives the understanding to each of His saints in Christ's churches as HE pleases?

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." -- Revelation 10:7

This is what YOU have just said about the above verse:​

Are you claiming to be the one who is about to "finish the mystery of God, as He has declared to His servants the prophets."?

If your answer to the above question is "Yes" (which it certainly seems to be, going on your choice of words), then let it be known to you sir, that YOU are a FALSE PROPHET who has been given NO MORE understanding than the one in Christ's flock who has been given THE LEAST. Far less than the one who has the least, in fact.

And if I am one sent (the meaning of the word "apostle")? Then you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

FINALLY, after your absolutely prideful, puffed up introduction to your post, you actually got to expressing what you believe regarding the scriptures:

I wasn't stating what I merely "believe."

That's true for the current Age only, in which the spiritual Kingdom of Christ exists in this world of darkness. It's not true however, for the Age to come, after the return of Christ, in which there will no longer be this kind of darkness, complete with its false prophets and false teachers abounding in the churches of Christ. This is what the apostles and true prophets of God taught - and it's all there, in the scriptures for all to read, though you argue against their words, while claiming to have more understanding than all others, and while at the very least implying that you are a "teacher of the mystery of God".​

You missed Paul's clarification that "each one" of the chosen and saved comes into the presence of God "in his own [individual] order" or time.

But no, I do not "argue" regarding what has been foretold of false prophets--or false teachers, the believing of a lie, and ensuing strong delusion and great apostacy--but confirm it. Which you are obviously a victim of, for you state their lies against what I have said of the truth...to become the very thing you accuse me of being.

Luke 11:35​

Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.​

Meanwhile, the mystery of God being revealed before the sounding of the seventh angel was also foretold--but you, you seem to believe that God changes--that His method is not to reveal in the last as He always has...just as He revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ--the very means by which His church is built.

 

[ScottA]

You "must" say? What is it that forced you to say the above? Was someone holding you at gunpoint? Please don't be offended but your entire introduction to what you eventually said in your post can be summed up with the following:-

1. I'm better informed than you or anyone who disagrees with what I am about to say in these matters, because
2. these things are spiritually discerned and it takes wisdom from God to understand them, which I have more than anyone else who disagrees with me. Therefore
3. If you disagree with anything I say when I finally get to my point, it's because you think with the mind of man and only I have the gidance of the Holy Spirit on these matters, since I'm wiser than you.

Then you continue on the above note with the following, still implying that anyone who disagrees with anything you will eventually say, it's because they are not as wise and spiritually informed on these matters as you are, and are not able to receive what you believe the truth to be:-

You have revealed NOTHING to anyone. It's is CHRIST who revealed EVERYTHING to HIS CHURCHES through HIS APOSTLES.

"Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John, who bore record of the Word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all the things that he saw." Revelation 1:1-2

Are you John or one of the other apostles whose writings YOU are about to reveal the meaning of to us? Are you the Holy Spirit who gives the understanding to each of His saints in Christ's churches as HE pleases?

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." -- Revelation 10:7

This is what YOU have just said about the above verse:​

Are you claiming to be the one who is about to "finish the mystery of God, as He has declared to His servants the prophets."?

If your answer to the above question is "Yes" (which it certainly seems to be, going on your choice of words), then let it be known to you sir, that YOU are a FALSE PROPHET who has been given NO MORE understanding than the one in Christ's flock who has been given THE LEAST. Far less than the one who has the least, in fact.

FINALLY, after your absolutely prideful, puffed up introduction to your post, you actually got to expressing what you believe regarding the scriptures:

That's true for the current Age only, in which the spiritual Kingdom of Christ exists in this world of darkness. It's not true however, for the Age to come, after the return of Christ, in which there will no longer be this kind of darkness, complete with its false prophets and false teachers abounding in the churches of Christ. This is what the apostles and true prophets of God taught - and it's all there, in the scriptures for all to read, though you argue against their words, while claiming to have more understanding than all others, and while at the very least implying that you are a "teacher of the mystery of God".

The above is a false statement, because it contradicts all that Jesus, the Son of God said about His return, as well as all that God's true prophets and apsotles have taught, as recorded in the scriptures.
​

Personally, I'd much rather be considered by you to be "a foolish natural man assuming things by my own understanding" and be taught - not of you - but of the prophets and apostles, and the Holy Spirit, who gives me the understanding of the scriptures, which I ask GOD (not you) for, as well as by the real Teachers in the churches who (unlike you) likewise are taught by the same:

1. By the prophets and apostles; and
2. The Holy Spirit.
​

The only thing about everything else in your entire self-exultant post that is true for this Age in which we now live, is the following:

.. from the beginning to the end of this Age, until the return of Christ. Then comes the end of this Age.

The rest of your sentence, which you posted after the above, was again a mixture of truth with your error.

That's quite enough, but the above quote for the record.

 

[Davidpt]

Prior to the first advent of Christ the only nation to have heard of the Messiah who would come to be their Saviour was the nation of Israel. Which is why it is written that Satan is bound so that he can no longer deceive the nations (Gentiles). Prior to the birth of Christ, Satan had access to the realm of heaven, and only a remnant of the Jews believed the prophecy about a coming Messiah/Saviour. Because the Holy Spirit was not yet permanently within believers, these first Jewish saints were required to make blood sacrifices again and again. That left them without confidence that their faith in the Messiah to come was eternal. This is how Satan was able to accuse them before God day and night. The Covenant ordained in heaven from the foundation of the world could not give the saints of old assurance of life after death because death had not yet been defeated through the resurrection of Christ.

But then 70 AD eventually happened, right? Did that event not cause Christians to leave the area? Which would mean this gives a way for the gospel to spread beyond this region if Christians that were in that region are now in other regions outside of this one. Even if satan was bound when Amils insist he was, 70 AD would have nothing to do with his binding, and that it was basically 70 AD that caused Christians in that region to venture beyond that region, thus allowing the gospel to spread even further. And the next thing you know, over time the gospel has managed to spread globally and that it has zero to do with satan being bound.

Let me ask this. Is satan so powerful that if he isn't bound, he would literally be able to prevent the spreading of the gospel to all nations? Is that what Amils think, that unless he is bound he could actually literally prevent the gospel from spreading to all nations? If Amils don't think that, that seems contradictory in that case if Amils are arguing that satan is bound so that he can't prevent the spreading of the gospel to all nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think more likely the problem is that some folks have a preconceived idea about what it means for Satan to be bound...​

Well, everyone forms their ideas about anything from something or some things... makes decisions ~ hopefully very informed ~ concerning all things. Sure.

, and though they can provide no verse or passage that plainly states that Satan was 'bound' at the time of the death and resurrection of Christ, they just won't see it for what it is in scripture...​

Well, the argument cuts both ways... There is no verse that actually says he is unbound ~ the "prowls" of 1 Peter 5:8 is not of the same root word that John uses in Revelation 20 ("bound"). Peter certainly portrays Satan as active and able to attempt to deceive individuals, but this does not require being unbound from deceiving the nations and thereby indirectly contradicting John's vision. Satan is certainly active, but his power to deceive has been limited until the period just before the return of Jesus. Satan's ability to keep the nations of earth blinded from seeing who God is and what His gospel means for them is ~ as a result of Christ's finished work in dying on the cross, in rising from the dead, in ascending to the Father, and in being crowned on the throne of glory ~ absolutely unable to ... and therefore bound from... deceiving the the nations, whom he formerly kept blinded to God's saving truth. Satan’s ability to deceive all the nations into rejecting the gospel has been limited. This must be so, because while the world still resists the Word of God, the truth of God has irrefutably enjoyed a much greater worldwide spread since the ascension of Jesus than before. The success of missions and church planting worldwide under the new covenant shows that Satan’s power is being held back.

On the other hand, though... There is obviously a "however" coming, so I give fair warning... However... ... Jesus actually uses the very same root term (ἔδησεν δέωdeō ~ "binds the strong man" ~ in the irrefutable context in which He has already done it, because He had) in Matthew 12:29 as John does (ἔδησεν δέωdeō ~ "bound him") in Revelation 20:2. So, "no verse or passage" assertion really holds no water... there it is, and straight from Christ's Jesus's mouth. I certainly don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence or intimate that he/she is ignorant in any way, but what Christ Jesus says in Matthew 12:28-29 is what it is.

Still, people make up their on minds, and I have no problem with that, and am of the opinion that any issue is unwarranted. To that point, though, regarding insulting anyone's intelligence or intimating ignorance, that's exactly what's coming from... other posters.

...they falsely equate Satan's defeat at the cross of Christ with his binding ​

Maybe some do, somehow. Maybe. But not me...

(even though, for some reason, they do not also equate Satan's defeat with his destruction in the lake of fire - which they believe still lies in some future time).​

So, Satan's destruction in the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10 is... past? Has already happened? I disagree. Didn't you just refute that very assertion? Or perhaps that's not the assertion you mean to make...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Where is the pit that he is bound in David?

You might want to ask the locusts that once they are released from there, whatever these locust things might be. Referring to Revelation 9 of course. All I know is, that while they are in the pit, the same pit satan will be in, it's as if they don't even exist. If satan is currently in this same pit, why isn't it as if he doesn't exist? There's plenty of reasons to believe satan is currently active on this planet. There is zero reason to believe these locusts are currently active on the earth. Why is it that the pit can hide them from the outside world while in the pit but that the pit can't hide satan from the outside world while he is in this same pit? By the pit hiding them from the outside world, I'm basically meaning, as if they don't even exist.

 

[PinSeeker]

But then 70 AD eventually happened, right?

Sure it did. As a preterist ~ or at least leaning that way ~ do you believe Jesus returned in 70 AD? And that there is now no more sin?

Even if satan was bound when Amils insist he was, 70 AD would have nothing to do with his binding...

Okay, sure...

...it was basically 70 AD that caused Christians in that region to venture beyond that region, thus allowing the gospel to spread even further.

I think in Acts we can see that that's not the case, and Paul's travels to Rome and Corinth and Ephesus and Thessalonica and such happened prior to AD 70, so I would say this "venture beyond the region" took place almost immediately after Jesus's command in Matthew 29:19 and certainly after His ascension a few weeks after His resurrection. Paul's (and Peter's) letters were written during the time frame of Acts. It is widely thought, and there is evidence for this, that Thomas ~ "doubting Thomas" ~ took the Gospel to the area we know as India and China today.

And the next thing you know, over time the gospel has managed to spread globally and that it has zero to do with satan being bound.

Let me ask this. Is satan so powerful that if he isn't bound, he would literally be able to prevent the spreading of the gospel to all nations?

Apparently so. But nothing happens apart from what God allows at any time. Why was Satan in Eden with Adam and Eve? Did God not have the power to keep him out? Well, sure, but...

Is that what Amils think, that unless he is bound he could actually literally prevent the gospel from spreading to all nations?

Well, before Jesus, he was able to keep nations ~ other than Israel ~ blinded to God's saving truth, to deceive all the nations besides Israel into rejecting the Gospel. God protected Israel and not other nations. So again, in answer to your question here, yes, apparently so, but the question then would be, would God allow it? The only one able to answer that question is God Himself. But we really don't have to ask it, because what is, is.

Okay, so a larger point: Actually, God still protects Israel, but Israel is no longer limited ~ it is no longer the "lesser" Israel of the Old Testament, which consisted almost exclusively ofbelieving ethnic Jews (there were a few foreigners), but since Jesus's life, death, and resurrection is now unlimited... "greater" Israel... in the sense that it includes both believing ethnic Jews and believing Gentiles, all those in Christ, so people of every tongue, tribe, and nation (the foreigners in "lesser" Israel foreshadowed this present reality).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Sure it did. As a preterist ~ or at least leaning that way ~ do you believe Jesus returned in 70 AD? And that there is now no more sin?

Are you meaning me or you when you say this?---As a preterist ~ or at least leaning that way.

If meaning me, if you knew me from this other board where I know a lot of members in here from, and that if you were aware of my posts over there, you would know I'm basically somewhat anti-Preterist, yet not a full blown Futurist either, especially in regards to the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation. For one, the coming mentioned in Matthew 24:30, I take that to be meaning His bodily return in the end of this age. Preterists take that coming to be involving 70 AD, I don't.

The AOD and great trib, I take that to be involving the church not unbelieving Jews and the 2nd temple in 70 AD. I connect it with 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for one, except I don't take that temple in the literal sense. It's not meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed nor is it meaning a rebuilt one in the future. This other board is where I initially met @Fullness of the Gentiles. He and I are basically on the same page in regards to what I just brought up here. Even though I'm a Premil this does not mean I interpret everything in a literal sense every time. Granted, a lot of Premils do tend to interpret pretty much everything in a literal sense, except I'm not one of those Premils that do though I used to at one time. But that was then, this is now.

I think in Acts we can see that that's not the case, and Paul's travels to Rome and Corinth and Ephesus and Thessalonica and such happened prior to AD 70, so I would say this "venture beyond the region" took place almost immediately after Jesus's command in Matthew 29:19 and certainly after His ascension a few weeks after His resurrection. Paul's (and Peter's) letters were written during the time frame of Acts. It is widely thought, and there is evidence for this, that Thomas ~ "doubting Thomas" ~ took the Gospel to the area we know as India and China today.

I'm not disputing any of this, and clearly this would be meaning before 70 AD. Yet per 70 AD it appears to me based on what the following records---and shall be led away captive into all nations(Luke 21:24), that this puts them even farther out of the region.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you meaning me or you when you say this?---As a preterist ~ or at least leaning that way.

Well, I did, but...

If meaning me, if you knew me from this other board where I know a lot of members in here from, and that if you were aware of my posts over there, you would know I'm basically somewhat anti-Preterist, yet not a full blown Futurist either, especially in regards to the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation. For one, the coming mentioned in Matthew 24:30, I take that to be meaning His bodily return in the end of this age. Preterists take that coming to be involving 70 AD, I don't.

...maybe I had you mixed up with another poster. Gifted Servant, maybe. Okay, my apologies.

Grace and peace to you, David.