The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

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CharismaticLady

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Yes, she should be a virgin, if the woman really symbolized the "church". But the woman is not a virgin and John doesn't say its a "church", he says it symbolizes a city, that rules over all other nations.



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How someone can confuse "that great city" with the church is beyond me, just astounds me the mental gymnastics people go through to reach such conclusions. We are supposed to believe that the "church", Gods bride, will rule with the Antichrist in the last days, the same guy responsible for beheading the saints for the testimony of Jesus to start with. Make that make sense...
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and @Base12

It appears you two are arguing over two different women? The woman of Revelation 12 is not the same woman of Revelation 17.
 

Stranger

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So what are those Jews who come into ???????? (if not the Church) during the Great Tribulation?

The Church is gone during the Tribulation period. It was raptured out. (1 Thess. 4:14-18) Why? Because God is finishing His work with the nation of Israel which involves the 7 year Tribulation. It is the last week of Daniels 70 weeks. (Dan. 9) This 7 year Tribulation is where God is transferring the kingdom away from the Gentile nations and back to Israel. See (Acts 1:6). "...wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The believing Jews during this Tribulation period will be part of Israel, not the Church. There will be Gentiles who also believe during the Tribulation period, and most will be martyred. They are the Tribulation saints. (Rev. 7:9-17) They are saved but are not part of the Church. Just like the large number of people who were saved from Adam to Israel being made a nation. They were neither part of Israel or the Church.

Stranger
 

CharismaticLady

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The Church is gone during the Tribulation period. It was raptured out. (1 Thess. 4:14-18) Why? Because God is finishing His work with the nation of Israel which involves the 7 year Tribulation. It is the last week of Daniels 70 weeks. (Dan. 9) This 7 year Tribulation is where God is transferring the kingdom away from the Gentile nations and back to Israel. See (Acts 1:6). "...wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The believing Jews during this Tribulation period will be part of Israel, not the Church. There will be Gentiles who also believe during the Tribulation period, and most will be martyred. They are the Tribulation saints. (Rev. 7:9-17) They are saved but are not part of the Church. Just like the large number of people who were saved from Adam to Israel being made a nation. They were neither part of Israel or the Church.

Stranger

The Tribulation saints martyred during the GT were already Christians when the GT started. No Gentiles will be first-time believers during the GT, only Jews. The rapture is at the second coming, not 7 years prior in some secret rapture. The Left Behind series of fiction has caused a false illusion of a second chance.
 
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Dcopymope

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and @Base12

It appears you two are arguing over two different women? The woman of Revelation 12 is not the same woman of Revelation 17.

The evidence that they are the same woman is their relative location John gives both. The woman in Rev 12 runs into the wilderness, and the woman in Rev 17 is described as being in the wilderness. The other identifier John gives is the term "that great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" in Rev 11:8. These are the identifiers for who the women are in both cases being Israel, "that great city" who gave birth to the "man child" who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron, who is also the city that crucified him.

This is the simple observation given by John, and it needn't be any more complicated than that. Claiming they are two different women only makes the narrative a convoluted mess full of plot holes. We wouldn't be calling God, the greatest author in existence a bad writer, since these are really his words to start with. And any decent, reputable story teller you can name, someone who knows how to give a strong, consistent narrative will tell you that is a massive plot hole, a hole so big you can drive a semi truck through it.
 
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Stranger

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The Tribulation saints martyred during the GT were already Christians when the GT started. No Gentiles will be first-time believers during the GT, only Jews. The rapture is at the second coming, not 7 years prior in some secret rapture. The Left Behind series of fiction has caused a false illusion of a second chance.

No second chance is ever offered. Where do you get that?

I hold to the dispensational teaching of the Bible. The only way you and others can make Israel the Church is to redefine Israel. If you want to interpret it that way, go ahead. I disagree.

Stranger
 

Hobie

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Yes, the Church was Jewish in it's origin. No, Christ is not a bigamist. His bride is the Church, the product of his pain and suffering.

He, Christ, has one Bride to be, the Church.

Stranger
Very true, hard for some to see that. But here is Daniel broken down by the relevant chapters on wiki which lays it out in a pretty straightforward fashion...
Daniel 2
The second chapter of the Book of Daniel tells how Daniel interpreted a dream of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. The king saw a gigantic statue made of four metals, from its gold head to its feet of mingled iron and clay; as he watched, a stone "not cut by human hands" destroyed the statue and became a mountain filling the whole world. Daniel explained to the king that the statue represented four successive kingdoms beginning with Babylon, while the stone and mountain signified a kingdom established by God which would never be destroyed nor given to another people. The historicist interpretation of the dream identifies the four empires as the Babylonian (the head), Medo-Persian (arms and shoulders), Greek (thighs and legs), and Roman (the feet) empires. The period starts with the gold head personified by King Nebuchadnezzar, then the next one of the silver is Medo-Persia, with the brass is Greece, and with iron or Rome which deteriorate all the way to being poorly mixed with clay. This line lasts until the Kingdom of God replaces and destroys it.[43]

"Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Daniel 2:31-35 (Authorized Version 1611)

As the Roman Empire evolved into the so-called Holy Roman Empire, the part that was never part of the Babylonian, Persian or Grecian empires, became Italy, Austria, Switzerland, France, the United Kingdom, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal.[43]

Daniel 7
The seventh chapter of the Book of Daniel tells of Daniel's vision of four world-kingdoms replaced by the kingdom of God. Four beasts come out of the sea, an angelic guide interprets the beasts as kingdoms and kings, the last of whom will make war on the "holy ones" of God, but he will be destroyed and the "holy ones" will be given eternal dominion. The historicist views of Daniel concern prophecies about the forces of evil viewed to have occurred as the four kingdoms of the image of Daniel 2, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.[44] Each kingdom had the symbol of an animal (beast), and the last beast of Daniel is considered to be the pagan Rome and the Papacy which goes till Christ comes again.

The territory ruled by the 10 horns (ten kings) that grow out of this last beast, are the same European kingdoms that rose up from the ruins of the Roman empire, the mixture of iron and clay from the image of Daniel 2. Historian Niccolò Machiavelli lists the ten successor kingdoms to the Roman Empire in Western Europe as the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons. The prophecy says 3 were uprooted and history shows the Heruli were in 493; the Vandals in 534, and the Ostrogoths in 553.[45]

"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:1-8 (Authorized Version 1611)

When Daniel looked at the horns, another little horn came up after three of the first horns had been plucked up. The Papacy arose at this time and was given status as a temporal (King/Bishop) by Charlemagne, and held political and spiritual power until the French Revolution.[44]

Daniel 8
The eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel tells of Daniel's vision of a two-horned ram destroyed by a one-horned goat followed by the history of the "little horn". The Historicist interpretations and most scholars read it as the transition from the Persian to the Greek era with the coming power after them.

"Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.." Daniel 8:3-10 (Authorized Version 1611)

Historicist and other scholars applied Daniel's little horn as symbolizing the Papacy. This was also the leading view of the Reformers, that the Roman Catholic Church the “Empire of the Youngest Horn"[46] of Daniel 8...Historicist interpretations of the Book of Daniel - Wikipedia
 

marks

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That is why I especially wanted you and Paul to study my post, just in case you both believed in pre-trib. It shows that we, the Church are still here during the Great Trib. Curious - who do you believe are their other offspring?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Do you believe in a rapture of the chruch? Resurrection of the dead in Christ, transformation of those in Christ still living, as we're caught up into the sky up to Jesus? If yes, when do you see it happening?

Much love!
 

Base12

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The evidence that they are the same woman is their relative location John gives both.
Something worth noting here is that there is no verse in the Bible in which Mystery Babylon is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

That is another Big Clue that God saved her in the end.

Then there is this...

Revelation 19:8
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints"


If the Bride was 'Pure from the beginning', she wouldn't have needed to be clothed with Righteousness.

It's obvious from the verse above that the Bride was *unrighteous* but was *saved* via the Mercy and Grace of God.

Thus the Bride was formerly Mystery Babylon and was given the name New Jerusalem.

There is your Red Pill for the day.

:D
 
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CharismaticLady

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Do you believe in a rapture of the chruch? Resurrection of the dead in Christ, transformation of those in Christ still living, as we're caught up into the sky up to Jesus? If yes, when do you see it happening?

Much love!

At the second coming, not 7 years prior.
 

CharismaticLady

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Yes, Israel is the woman. And during the Great Tribulation, who are the rest of her offspring?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 

marks

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Yes, Israel is the woman. And during the Great Tribulation, who are the rest of her offspring?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Israelites.
 

Enoch111

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Something worth noting here is that there is no verse in the Bible in which Mystery Babylon is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Mystery Babylon = THE ULTIMATE FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM.

It is the ones who succumb to it that are cast into the Lake of Fire.