The false gospel of grace

[Nancy]

Yes and no.

Paul's spells about quite clearly that the Saints will continue to sin because of the flesh.

But he also makes it quite clear we will not sin as we did before being saved and that we will struggle to stop sinning altogether. The war of the old And new natures.

Total sanctification is a train wreck and the stumbling block that hinders people from growing in sanctification. They are chasing the unattainable on this earth.

"Paul's spells about quite clearly that the Saints will continue to sin because of the flesh." Yes, he does. I see a big difference between "falling into sin" and "living in sin". Yes, we will lose many battles to sin...hopefully less and less as we continue to seek Him and His ways. I am not a "Holiness Movement" proponent :)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

We will never be perfect in this world, ruled by the enemy of our souls--but, we can be pretty okay when it is our habit to "walk in the Spirit." If I display, "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" only those who are sold out to wickedness are going to have a problem with me.

 

[CoreIssue]

"Paul's spells about quite clearly that the Saints will continue to sin because of the flesh." Yes, he does. I see a big difference between "falling into sin" and "living in sin". Yes, we will lose many battles to sin...hopefully less and less as we continue to seek Him and His ways. I am not a "Holiness Movement" proponent :)

I agree there's a huge difference. The Bible spells that out clearly.

 

[Nancy]

Every born-again sends outwardly and inwardly.

Paul makes that quite clear.

I think Epi is speaking to the biggest hypocrites of all...

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I do not fear God nor does he want me to fear him.

Yet, we are told, in 1Peter 2:17---> "Honor all people, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the king." and Luke 1:50-->"...from generation to generation He is merciful to those who fear Him." And finally, this from the Lord Jesus Himself: Luke 12:5--> "But I will warn you whom you should fear: Fear the one who, after the killing, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!"

I don't think God the Father intends for His children to live in constant dread of Him. But I do believe that there is a certain amount of "healthy fear" that is good for us--a respect for His absolute holiness and our lack of it. There to keep us humble. Without that humility, the Holy Spirit is apt to be grieved a bit more in His attempts to mold us. I guarantee that were we to be exposed to His holiness, our first impulse would be to fall on our faces before Him. In fact, fear of the Lord is one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 11:2)

 

[Nancy]

Yet, we are told, in 1Peter 2:17---> "Honor all people, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the king." and Luke 1:50-->"...from generation to generation He is merciful to those who fear Him." And finally, this from the Lord Jesus Himself: Luke 12:5--> "But I will warn you whom you should fear: Fear the one who, after the killing, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!"

I don't think God the Father intends for His children to live in constant dread of Him. But I do believe that there is a certain amount of "healthy fear" that is good for us--a respect for His absolute holiness and our lack of it. There to keep us humble. Without that humility, the Holy Spirit is apt to be grieved a bit more in His attempts to mold us. I guarantee that were we to be exposed to His holiness, our first impulse would be to fall on our faces before Him. In fact, fear of the Lord is one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 11:2)

I agree. I think the lack of fear comes right alongside lack of reverence that is missing IME. If I were exposed to His Holiness, I Think I would feel such shame and gratitude simultaneously! Ha, how can we even say what we will feel/do?!
And yeah, the more we allow pride to take hold, the more we grieve the H.S. and the longer it will take for the H.S. to mold us into His Image.
Who can know Him? ♥

 

[Earburner]

Are you saying cleansed as in washed away so that the power of sin is destroyed...or just whitewashed? I think I already know your position...but it is a false gospel that serves man...not God. It justifies "believers" IN their sins. So there is actually no real cleansing taking place...just an ideology that makes one think they are cleansed even as they sin.

So, according to Mat. 5:19-20, are you a "bad sinner" or a "good sinner" ?

 

[Episkopos]

So, according to Mat. 5:19-20, are you a "bad sinner" or a "good sinner" ?

Ask yourself...."where is this attitude coming from in me? What nature do I live in and feed?"

 

[CoreIssue]

I agree. I think the lack of fear comes right alongside lack of reverence that is missing IME. If I were exposed to His Holiness, I Think I would feel such shame and gratitude simultaneously! Ha, how can we even say what we will feel/do?!
And yeah, the more we allow pride to take hold, the more we grieve the H.S. and the longer it will take for the H.S. to mold us into His Image.
Who can know Him? ♥

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5399 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
fobevw from (5401)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Phobeo 9:189,1272
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
fob-eh'-o Verb
Definition

1. to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
   1. to put to flight, to flee
   2. to fear, be afraid
      1. to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm 1b
   3. of those startled by strange sights or occurrences 1b
   4. of those struck with amazement
      1. to fear, be afraid of one
      2. to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
   5. to revere, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

Do Not Fear - 33 Verses about Fear and Anxiety to Remind Us: God Is in Control

 

[Jon Mathews]

Are you saying cleansed as in washed away so that the power of sin is destroyed...or just whitewashed? I think I already know your position...but it is a false gospel that serves man...not God. It justifies "believers" IN their sins. So there is actually no real cleansing taking place...just an ideology that makes one think they are cleansed even as they sin.

When we turn to Jesus in repentance, confessing our sins, He has promised to forgive and to cleanse us (1 John 1:9). When we are Born Again, God gives us a new heart that hates sin and a spirit that will not allow us to continue in sin.

 

[CoreIssue]

When we turn to Jesus in repentance, confessing our sins, He has promised to forgive and to cleanse us (1 John 1:9). When we are Born Again, God gives us a new heart that hates sin and a spirit that will not allow us to continue in sin.

The only change I would make is our spirits fight against our flesh to not send again. What the flesh still wins a at times causing.

There is no such thing on this earth as total sanctification.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no such thing on this earth as total sanctification.

Scripture teaches us that there is (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv), 1 John 3:6 (kjv) w/ 1 John 2:17 (kjv), Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv), 1 John 2:10 (kjv), and many more...)

 

[CoreIssue]

Scripture teaches us that there is (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv), 1 John 3:6 (kjv) w/ 1 John 2:17 (kjv), Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv), 1 John 2:10 (kjv), and many more...)

Do Christians sin?

 

[justbyfaith]

Do Christians sin?

Scripture indicates that we can come to a place in our lives as Christians wherein we no longer sin, as a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15).

See also

(1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv), 1 John 3:6 (kjv) w/ 1 John 2:17 (kjv), Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv), 1 John 2:10 (kjv), and many more...)

 

[CoreIssue]

Scripture indicates that we can come to a place in our lives as Christians wherein we no longer sin, as a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15).

See also

That is false.

Paul makes it quite clear that no matter how much we want not to sin we will sin because of our flesh.

You do not understand the difference between goal and reality.

 

[CoreIssue]

Romans 7:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[justbyfaith]

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 10:10, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

 

[CoreIssue]

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 10:10, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself or is it your tripping yourself up KJV?

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 7:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using a literary tactic that he identifies in 1 Corinthians 9:22 (kjv). He sets himself forth as a carnal believer in order that he might win the carnal believer. But it is clear that there is another class of Christian other than carnal; the spiritual believer is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 in contrast to the carnal believer.

Paul wrote over half of the New Testament; so I have very serious doubts that he wrote it from a carnal state of mind.

Therefore he was not in a carnal state of mind when he wrote Romans 7:14-25; but was rather using a literary tactic, setting himself forth as weak in order to win those who are weak (1 Corinthians 9:22 (kjv)).

You should also consider what Peter said about Paul's writings in 2 Peter 3:15-17.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself or is it your tripping yourself up KJV?

See post #159 (The false gospel of grace)