The folly of Preterism

[WPM]

You do not know what you say, nor what is written, only how you have wrongly understood it.

As for my forefathers, if you knew me by name you would not speak as you do. That was your last chance.

Keep your childish threats to yourself. Denying the literal physical future return of Christ renders you a heretic.

 

[WPM]

All that is known to me is that, perhaps the lake of fire is for a purgative restoration in finding Christ refining fire. It’s may come where God is in the heavenly Jerusalem. It’s a fire that perhaps can consume all the evil out of the heart of another in subjective reality to accept the Lord; or; decline the offer and decide to continue life outside of the kingdom as I believe Jesus had the keys to all death.

No to people really agree with this of course as you would see the implications of the hope for the God who is a Good God and a giver of good gifts has some way to justify himself for what he is capable doing compared to our own limited thoughts.

Are you a Roman Catholic?

 

[ScottA]

Explain "who's forefathers would have all died before salvation had come"? The faithful of old were saved by grace through faith in the Gospel in the same way believers after the cross and resurrection are saved. The faithful saints of old Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ". Since they slept (already died before His coming) "in Christ" after His resurrection they too were resurrected a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44-46) and ascended with Christ to heaven as spiritually living souls (Rev 20:4).

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The promise of life even after death on the new earth, these saints of old would not receive until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, is physical immortal, and incorruptible life upon the new earth with Christ forevermore. This shall not be until the last trumpet begins to sound and the mortal body of the saints shall put on immortality and incorruption, when time given this earth shall be no longer. (1Cor 15:51-54; Rev 10:5-7)

Isaiah 65:17-18 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Not you or anyone else shall be made perfect until the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. The fullness of the promise long awaited for does not come one by one as you seem to imagine. That which happens one by one comes by grace through faith as the Gospel is proclaimed and man turns from darkness and death to the Light and Life that comes through Christ by His Spirit in us.

Romans 10:16-21 (KJV) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

What you have described cannot be fully reconciled without the false doctrine of purgatory, for you have made these last days a time in which Israel must wait until the fulness of the gentiles has come. That is not the case, but I have explained it as it actually is--that time is an illusion, and (just as it is written) He has and does "fulfill all things" in His time--which "was" the time of Christ, even so "but each one in his own order."

Those who see all things according to the world, are still of the world.

 

[ScottA]

Keep your childish threats to yourself. Denying the literal physical future return of Christ renders you a heretic.

For the record.

 

[WPM]

What you have described cannot be fully reconciled without the false doctrine of purgatory, for you have made these last days a time in which Israel must wait until the fulness of the gentiles has come. That is not the case, but I have explained it as it actually is--that time is an illusion, and (just as it is written) He has and does "fulfill all things" in His time--which "was" the time of Christ, even so "but each one in his own order."

Those who see all things according to the world, are still of the world.

So, what age do we currently live in now if it is not "the last days"?

 

[Always Believing]

You avoided my 2 questions:

1. Where are your 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?

You were challenged first. If you answer them, then I'll answer yours.

I want to make sure you answer challenges, rather than just expect others to.

 

[ScottA]

So, what age do we currently live in now if it is not "the last days"?

Every age is "the last days", there are six or seven, the last of which are three and a half (so to speak): "a time, times, and half a time."

 

[Truth7t7]

All that is known to me is that, perhaps the lake of fire is for a purgative restoration in finding Christ refining fire.

Sounds like the Roman Catholic false doctrine of purgatory

 

[Truth7t7]

Every age is "the last days", there are six or seven

No there isn't, the last day is just that, no days following

More metaphysical mystical gobbly goop

 

[Always Believing]

Paul the Apostle uses the figure ‘ten thousand’ in 1 Corinthians 4:15 to impress a spiritual truth, saying, “For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” Paul uses the figure ten thousand as a common round figure to represent a specific truth. What he was basically saying was ‘though ye have numerous instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers’

Paul uses the same principle in 1 Corinthians 14:19 to advocate wisdom in relation to the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, saying, “in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Paul here uses the large even figure ten thousand to impress an important truth. He instructs the Corinthians that it is better to speak a little in a tongue that is understood than to speak numerous words in an unknown tongue that are not understood.

The Lord also uses this same figure, in Matthew 18:23-27, to represent the idea of a vast amount, saying, “Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.”

Matthew Henry explains that ten thousand talents represents about 60 million denarii; a denarius of which was a day’s wages. The Lord therefore advances this parable to represent the vastness of our debt to God and our complete incapability of paying it ourselves. Matthew Henry succinctly says, “The debt of sin is so great, we are not able to pay it.”

Micah asks a question in Micah 6:7, which he then answers in verse 8:

Q. “Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

A. “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”

Isaiah asks a similar question in Isaiah 1:11, only he substitutes the terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” with the word multitude, asking, "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” Notwithstanding, both are expressing the same thought.

What the Lord required in these two instances, as he still does today, was NOT multiple physical external sacrifices but rather real true personal spiritual internal sacrifices. The terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” in Micah therefore figuratively represents ‘many’ or ‘numerous’ or, in agreement with Isaiah, ‘multiple’.

The number a thousand is also figuratively used in Amos 5:2-4 to prophetically describe the judgment which awaited the rebellious house of natural Israel. Again, it does not denote a literal figure but rather the type, degree and enormity of judgment that would befall Israel. Amos 5:1-4 says, “The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave AN HUNDRED , and that which went forth by AN HUNDRED shall leave TEN, to the house of Israel.”

Such numbers are occasionally used in Scripture to symbolize and emphasize the magnification or the minimising of specific Divine blessings or judgment s. The descending multiples of 1,000, 100 and 10 are employed here as symbols or figures to signify an impending reality, rather than representing any precise numerical prediction. Such popular numbers are purposely chosen to, in some way, impress the considerable degree of judgment approaching. The figure ‘a thousand’ here (like the other two numbers) is thus a common figure used to describe the serious impending wrath.

The reverse idea is also employed in ascending scale to describe spiritual principles / ideas and Divine truth throughout Scripture. This is seen in the round figures of 1,000, 10,000 and 144,000. They are used as common and complete numbers and carry an undoubted symbolic usage.

Finally, we see the glorious statement in Jude 1:14-15, which speaks of that glorious all-consummating final future Advent, saying, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Here, we can determine NO specific number, only acknowledge that the term describes untold myriads of God’s blessed saints.[/COLOR]

Good, you've produced volumes to show a thousand may not be a literal thousand in the Bible, which is true and obvious, but that's not the challenge made to you.

Your error is not just questioning the literacy of a thousand, but is using it to make simile out of Christ's whole Millennium on earth.

It's not just a 'thousand' that expires, but the Millennium itself expires. Christ's reign with His saints on earth is only called His Millennium, because it is specifically for one thousand years.

And so how can a simile expire? It never exists in the first place. It's just simile. If the Millennium is only simile, it can't literally nor physically expire.

The point is all about the word expire in Scripture, and used by all the ancients: Telos.

Telos is definitive only. Telos can never be used as a symbolic gesture, because it was not created for that purpose. You see, your argument is really against the only meaning of a word from ancient times, and trying to make it mean something else, that it can never accurately be used for.

You are trying to redefine the word telos into something symbolic rather than definitive, in order to change the prophecy of Christ's Millennium into something symbolic rather than definitive.

And not only that, but by making a definitive word only symbolic, and so making the expiration of the even symbolic only, you must do the same with the time of Christ on the cross, that He said is finished: Telos.

Telos proves the Millennium of a thousand exact years is literal, and cannot be only symbolic, and anyone changing the nature of the word to do so, also must change the nature of the word and event of Christ's cross.

If Christ's Millennium on earth only expires symbolically, then also Christ's time on the cross only finishes symbolically.

Conclusion: In order to do away with the Millennium as symbolic only, and reject the physical prophetic details of it, with the certain definitive end to it, One must not only falsely translate a definitive word as simile only, but also must heretically do the same for the cross. Both are equally spoken of in clear physical detail, and are completely intertwined with one another by one simple word: Telos.

Denying His Millennium on earth physically expires after a thousand years, is denying His time on the cross physically finished after His work is done.

And there are heretics that do purposely symbolize the man Jesus dying on the cross, which is them denying He is come in the flesh.

I'm not saying that includes you, who would not doubt confess Jesus coming in the flesh, and physically dying on the cross, However by simple language of the Bible, both Jesus on the cross on earth, and reigning on earth are physically intertwined. To refuse one as physically true, is to refuse the other.

And those that refuse Him coming in the flesh as a man on earth, also just happen to refuse Him coming again as Lord and God on earth.

The first part no doubt does not include you, but the second does by your rejection of His physical reign over all nations on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No need to. Just sharing information. Thank you, and may you have a good day.

Please don't share your opinions here if you have no interest in backing them up. Thanks.

 

[Always Believing]

• Premil has a big devil and a small God.

That would be big Devil, and small god. Which interestingly is true in the Bible, where there is the Devil and Satan, and other gods, that are no gods.

• Premil has a big devil and an impotent powerless Church.

Amils have the opposite. They have a conquering Christ who has empowered the Church to invade Satan’s territory and see him defeated everywhere the light of the Gospel is received throughout the nations.

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

This is just copy and pasted subjective philosophy.

 

[Always Believing]

Wow! You now deny the physical resurrection of Christ.

Nice try, but we are speaking of the first resurrection of the church, not the first resurrection of a man, Jesus Christ.

I also made this clear, so you simply have no integrity. That's the nature of people who just copy and paste personal ideologies, and then purposely change what others say in response to it.

You really talk some nonsense at times. It is truly hard to take your writings serious.

No problem. I've already concluded by this post the worthlessness of dealing with you.

It's sufficient for me to have learned your main error in symbolizing telos, rather than taking it as definitive and literal.

The Millennium of Christ is literal, because it's physical time of expiration is literal, just as the cross of Jesus. Telos is never used symbolically, nor for symbolic things. And so, to change the meaning of the word to symbolize it, does the same for both the Millinium and the cross.

It's the nature of the beast to do so:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.

Changing of times, or the meaning of time itself, is changing the natural order of things, including the meaning of words, in order to teach false doctrine and make false prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We going to him in death my friend.

Jesus said we can feast in heaven, spiritual bodies, kingdom, kingdom had an outside. Children of God in the kingdom, sons and daughters in the kingdom, no more death, no more mourning, no more sadness, no more pain, all of it awaits after this life.

You continue to mention Titus in 70Ad when I have not even said or talked about him at all, as far as I know, I could have.

The judgment was made an open spectacle look at the destruction.

Scripture teaches that we will all be changed and have spiritual bodies AT THE SAME TIME which will be at the last trumpet when Christ returns. How do you reconcile your view that we each are changed and have spiritual bodies upon death with what Paul wrote here:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

just to let everyone know I don’t even know what all the pretrist people believe. I just believe that all things have been fulfilled by Christ as promised by faith.

What do you believe about the future? Do you think things will just go on forever the same way it has throughout history so far? Do you think God will never put an end to death and sin?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it exposes the fact that most of Christendom has NOT RECONCILED all of scripture (including the Preterists).

Are you saying that you are not a preterist? Do you believe in a future, bodily coming of Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the future mass bodily resurrection of all of the dead in Christ when He returns?

 

[rwb]

What you have described cannot be fully reconciled without the false doctrine of purgatory, for you have made these last days a time in which Israel must wait until the fulness of the gentiles has come. That is not the case, but I have explained it as it actually is--that time is an illusion, and (just as it is written) He has and does "fulfill all things" in His time--which "was" the time of Christ, even so "but each one in his own order."

Those who see all things according to the world, are still of the world.

The notion of purgatory is an unbiblical doctrine from hell, giving people a false hope of being saved after physically dying in unbelief. Israel of faith, as I've already told you, are those who died in faith (in Christ) believing the promise of the Messiah who would come. The old covenant faithful saints could not spiritually ascend to heaven with Christ until after Christ defeated both sin and death. By His blood shed on the cross, where Christ gave Himself a ransom for all sin, and by His resurrection proving death could not hold Him for He has power over death. And now since His coming all who die in Him have been delivered from bondage to sin and death, and in death spiritually ascend to heaven a living soul to wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete. Then together all the saints will be perfected together with immortality and incorruptible bodies fit for life with Christ forever on the new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not hearing even those things you have quoted.

Paul says "but now"..."and become" (present tense). He was also referring to "them that slept" (past tense). He also said "afterward"...which I have not said differently.

But what is missing in your explanation, is that you have not defined "the end" properly. Which Jesus and Paul only eluded to, but did clarify, Jesus sayin "I am the Beginning and the End", but also, "but the end is not yet." In the one case He referred to Himself as "the [E]nd", but also made exception and clarification referring to "the end" of the world as not to be confused with Himself.

It is this difference of reality between the two, that qualifies Paul's statement of "but each in his own order" (speaking of each individual) to be different that most have wrongly concluded...as well as a host of other passages also misunderstood, such as: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock [present tense]. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me" [individually]; "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”; “Behold, I am coming quickly!"; "—things which must shortly take place"; "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." As well as the many passages that are even giving in past tense as having already occurred, even then. It is rather these things that are literal, and are not to be explained away.

You are so far off base that it just boggles my mind. The order Paul alluded to was CHRIST FIRST (Christ the firstfruits) and then next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming. NOWHERE does Paul indicate that each individual gets resurrected in order. He made it VERY CLEAR that ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME which will be when Christ comes again. You are reading things into 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that are not there.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

When it says "each in turn" it's talking about Christ being first and then next in order being "those who belong to him" being resurrected "when he comes". He has not come yet!

The dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time when He does come. Paul taught that here as well:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This has clearly not yet happened. This indicates that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME right after Jesus descends from heaven. Has He descended from heaven yet? Clearly not! You can't possibly reconcile your beliefs with passages like this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And that day His saints will not only being ruling and reigning in Christ over their households, but also with Christ over all nations.

The spiritual reign in Christ now is prelude training to reigning with Christ with resurrected immortal bodies.



True. It won't even be until after a thousand years of Christ's return.




But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Unbelievers of the world have never been the citizens of the Lord, until His return, when all nations will be citizens of His kingdom on earth.

His citizens that hated Him are them that rejected Him as His first coming.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

He is speaking specifically of the Jews in Jerusalem, not of all people on the earth.



Someone's writing their own bible. The general last resurrection of both the good and the evil, is not for a thousand years after the first resurrection of all the blessed in Christ.

Because His coming is spiritual now unto salvation. His second coming will be at any time, or at a time another thousand years from now.


If preterists are those saying the Lord has already come to earth a second time, and reject His physical return, then they are wrong.

He first came in mortal flesh and blood by a virgin, and He will come a second time with immortal flesh and bones by the air.


The dead certainly have, whether the wicked reward in hell, or the righteous reward in heaven.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



Really? Want to tell an Islamist that? None of them even acknowledge His reign and rule, much less submit it.

The Lord Jesus now having all power and authority over all things in heaven and earth, does not mean He is reigning over all things, such as the god of this world, and the enemies of God of this world.

To say He is 'reigning' now over His enemies, is nothing by a symbolic gesture that has no meaning.

The Lord does not reign over anyone symbolically.

Why are you trying to hijack this thread? This thread is about refuting preterism and is not an Amill vs. Premill thread. Do you have any thoughts on what has been said to refute preterism?

 

[MatthewG]

Sounds like the Roman Catholic false doctrine of purgatory

Never learned about. Fire can purify and cook food. So I don’t see a problem with the Lake of Fire cooking out darkness and allowing what little light that was there to survive, which the soul now knows Christ?

It’s all speculation I’m not dogmatic about what any one here believers about the lake of fire; and for the most part all should be encouraged to think from themselves, but do research but you make up what you believe about God, Jesus, Sin, Death, resurrection , Satan, because this is a decision that every individual must be able to question and seek answers for; some things we simply don’t know there are things that can be known, if one is seeking for God worshiping in spirit and truth, allow him to point you to understanding a fuller understanding and wisdom which a hope and encouragement to each and all.