The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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WPM

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That verse does not describe the International Church as a "nation." We have a new priesthood, that of Christ, and our sacrifices are not like Israel's sacrifices under the Law. As Christians we have this calling, which Israel has temporarily lost due to their rejecting Christianity.

The Church without any division is a distinct unitary nation. It is a holy nation. Natural ethnicity means nothing within it. Christians have their spiritual citizenship in heaven. There is no such thing as Christian nations today in the NT. That is your own invention. The problem with your theory is that you have a misconception of what the word "Christian" actually means. What you define as a "Christian" nation is far from it. Nations like the United States of America and United Kingdom possess governments, people and laws that are hostile to the truth of God.

1 Peter 2:9-10 , ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

· A chosen generation
· A royal priesthood
· An holy nation
· A peculiar people
· Who have been called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The word rendered generation in the King James Version here is the Greek word genos meaning kin (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective). It comes up 21 times in the NT and this is the only occasion it is interpreted generation. It simply means kindred, kind, stock or offspring.

This reading refers in notable detail to the spiritual edifice – the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church being here described as a nation – “an holy nation” – which is under intimate divine control. This nation is not a physical nation, which can be observed with the natural eye but rather invisible and can only be seen through the spiritual eye. It is thus a spiritual nation that extends over every land boundary, ethnic group, colour and creed.
 
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WPM

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But the redemptive act took place, as Irenaeus notes, when Christ delivered Man from the power of sin and death, when he received redemptive life, or the guarantee of spiritual perpetuity. This he did at his 1st Coming and at the Cross. Christ proved to be the "stronger man," being able to pin Satan down while he releases the prisoners from their dungeon of condemnation.

None of this means, in Irenaeus' words, that Satan will be bound in a bottomless pit until Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom. As you note, the strong man released man from death at his 1st Coming. But this is just an expression indicating Christ is dominant over Satan. He may not have yet put Satan in prison, but he showed himself dominant by forgiving human sin and granting them eternal life and resurrection from the dead, when the time comes.

This is simply not true. Like ancient and modern Amillennialists, Irenaeus believed in the current binding of Satan. He believed this happened through the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. He also believed in the destruction of Satan at the second coming. This meant he did not see him arising 1000 years after the second coming and raising up a mammoth insurrection in the next age. This too is in keeping with classic Ami position. Irenaeus was very direct, consistent and bold in his declarations on the binding of Satan. He was also clear in identifying the timing of this occurrence.

For He [Jesus] fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers, and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6).​

Irenaeus here links the binding of Satan to Christ “destroying sin.” This of course is a direct reference to the cross-work. The ancient writer saw Christ’s first coming as an overall mission to defeat the wicked one and save men. Both of these go hand-in-hand in the Chiliast approach to Christ’s earthly ministry. This explains how Calvary is at the core of the early Millennialists’ attitude to the subjugation of the devil. There, Jesus fully overcome sin and death.

He continues:

By means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan’s) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under colour of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods [talking about the lie of Satan in the Garden], which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive, was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 1).​

Irenaeus saw the First Advent as securing the overall defeat of every enemy of God and righteousness. He saw it as a full package. Christ came (on assignment) to undo all the result of the Fall. His life, cross-work and triumphant resurrection was pivotal in defeating our arch-enemy. The binding was not limited to Christ casting out demons, although this was an integral part of His overall assignment. The cross and the resurrection was the triumphant apex of His earthly assignment. This is where sin was fully paid for, death was defeated and Satan was stripped of his then immense power and widespread control.

Ironically, this is the verbiage of Amillennialism. As a result of the First Advent, Satan is shown to be a prisoner – he is a captive. The spiritual prison man was incarcerated in prior to the cross and the chains the evil one had him incapacitated with were in turn placed upon Satan. The boot was on the other foot. The chains that bound them have now been placed upon Satan. The devil is thus seen as a vanquished foe. Christ’s earthy ministry is seen to undo what the enemy had afflicted all mankind with. It is dealing with sin, and it is dealing with death.

He understood the binding of the strong man 2,000 years ago related to the victory Christ won over Satan and Him spiritually establishing God’s Kingdom on the earth and invading the kingdom of darkness with the light of the Gospel and seeing the ignorance banished amongst the Gentiles. Satan can persecute, he can deceive, he can even destroy the body. But he cannot stop the light of God’s truth, (the good news of the kingdom) from going into the nations. He cannot prevent anyone from repenting and confessing Christ. This is completely up to the individual.

For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy’s head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head,—which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: “You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon;” — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind “the dragon, that old serpent” and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that all his might should be trodden down. Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 7).​

In keeping with the rest of his writings Irenaeus shows Christ taking back off Satan at the 1st Advent what Adam forfeited at the beginning. This permeates through different writings of Irenaeus. The references to “dragon” and “serpent” here are clear and overt references to Revelation 20:2.

This passage starts off by describing the separation that came “between the serpent and the woman and her seed” after the Fall. Irenaeus identifies man’s great enemy and what he wrought. He then reveals God’s great antidote – the Lord Jesus Christ. He shows how Christ came to rectify what was wrong. He testifies how Satan had been “biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head, — which was born of Mary.” Irenaeus confirms: “Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life.” The ancient writer relates the trampling down and bruising of the devil’s head to the victory of Christ’s ministry. Sin, death and every enemy of righteousness was defeated through the life, death and glorious resurrection of Christ.

Irenaeus doesn’t just limit the conquest of the First Advent to our arch-enemy Satan. He shows that assault also saw the defeat of antichrist. He supports this contention by quoting Psalm 91:13: "You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon." After quoting Psalm 91:13, Irenaeus explains the thinking of the Psalmist: arguing that he was looking forward to the fulfilment of this through the First Advent. Irenaeus was looking at it from the Psalmist's perspective.

The fate of Satan in Scripture normally mirrors that of antichrist (the mystery of iniquity/the beast). Irenaeus here connects the trampling down of Satan to the binding of "the dragon, that old serpent." He then in turn shows how redeemed man was given authority over Satan, after Christ spiritually bound him. He was talking about the after-effects of the cross on Satan, and to this current intra-Advent period (“in the latter days”).

This fits with his constant teaching on the current binding of Satan, which refutes modern Premil. Sin, death, the beast and Satan are all shown to have been defeated through their earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

The writer also shows that the last enemy to be eliminated is death when Jesus returns. But the defeat of death was on the cross, work Christ secured our salvation. That is why Irenaeus concludes – speaking about the final subjugation of death, “This could not be said with justice, if that man, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For his salvation is death's destruction.”
 

WPM

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But the redemptive act took place, as Irenaeus notes, when Christ delivered Man from the power of sin and death, when he received redemptive life, or the guarantee of spiritual perpetuity. This he did at his 1st Coming and at the Cross. Christ proved to be the "stronger man," being able to pin Satan down while he releases the prisoners from their dungeon of condemnation.

None of this means, in Irenaeus' words, that Satan will be bound in a bottomless pit until Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom. As you note, the strong man released man from death at his 1st Coming. But this is just an expression indicating Christ is dominant over Satan. He may not have yet put Satan in prison, but he showed himself dominant by forgiving human sin and granting them eternal life and resurrection from the dead, when the time comes.

The historic facts contradict your opinion:

The Lord showed Himself under every aspect and truly to be the strong man, saying that one can in no other way "spoil the goods of a strong man, if he do not first bind the strong man himself, and then he will spoil his house." Now we were the vessels and the house of this [strong man] when we were in a state of apostasy; for he put us to whatever use he pleased, and the unclean spirit dwelt within us. For he was not strong, as opposed to Him who bound him, and spoiled his house; but as against those persons who were his tools, inasmuch as he caused their thought to wander away from God: these did the Lord snatch from his grasp. As also Jeremiah declares, "The Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and has snatched him from the hand of him that was stronger than he." If, then, he had not pointed out Him who binds and spoils his goods, but had merely spoken of him as being strong, the strong man should have been unconquered (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 8).
The binding of Satan and the spoiling of his house were globalized here to relate to mankind.

How, too, could He have subdued him who was stronger than men, who had not only overcome man, but also retained him under his power, and conquered him who had conquered, while he set free mankind who had been conquered, unless He had been greater than man who had thus been vanquished? But who else is superior to, and more eminent than, that man who was formed after the likeness of God, except the Son of God, after whose image man was created? And for this reason He did in these last days exhibit the similitude; [for] the Son of God was made man, assuming the ancient production [of His hands] into His own nature, as I have shown in the immediately preceding book (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 33:4).
The writer links the subduing of Satan to Christ's death 2000 years ago. He is shown to be now vanquished. This is the opposite of Premil theology. What is more: he related the binding of Satan at the First Advent to "the last days."

God has banished from His presence him who did of his own accord stealthily sow the tares, that is, him who brought about the transgression … The Scripture tells us that God said to the serpent, And I will place enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. And the Lord summed up in Himself this enmity, when He was made man from a woman, and trod upon his [the serpent's] head (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 40, 3)
Satan is shown here to be "banished from His (Christ's) presence" after Christ "trod upon his [the serpent's] head."

He reformed the human race, but destroyed and conquered the enemy of man, and gave to His handiwork victory against the adversary
(Against Heresies (Book 4, Chapter 24:1).
Satan is a defeated foe and his bound in his influence.

Then in the Gospel, casting down the apostasy by means of these expressions, He did both overcome the strong man by His Father's voice, and He acknowledges the commandment of the law to express His own sentiments, when He says, You shall not tempt the Lord your God. For He did not confound the adversary by the saying of any other, but by that belonging to His own Father, and thus overcame the strong man (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 22, 1)
Satan is already "overcome" according to Irenaeus.

Waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam, and trampled upon his head, as thou canst perceive in Genesis that God said to the serpent, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman. For indeed the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man [born] of a woman who conquered him. For it was by means of a woman that he got the advantage over man at first, setting himself up as man’s opponent. And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned (ex quo ea quæ secundum mulierem est plasmatio facta est), in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanquished man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm [of victory] against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death” (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 1)
The first Advent was a victory for Christ and saw Satan be crushed, vanquished and trampled upon.

The Lord did perform His command, being made of a woman, by both destroying our adversary, and perfecting man after the image and likeness of God. And for this reason He did not draw the means of confounding him from any other source than from the words of the law, and made use of the Father’s commandment as a help towards the destruction and confusion of the apostate angel(Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 2)
This is a victorious essay.

The law does indeed declare the Word of God from the Father; and the apostate angel of God is destroyed by its voice, being exposed in his true colours, and vanquished by the Son of man keeping the commandment of GodIt was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since "none can enter a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself." The Lord therefore exposes him as speaking contrary to the word of that God who made all things, and subdues him by means of the commandment. Now the law is the commandment of God. The Man proves him to be a fugitive from and a transgressor of the law, an apostate also from God. After [the Man had done this], the Word bound him securely as a fugitive from Himself, and made spoil of his goods – namely, those men whom he held in bondage, and whom he unjustly used for his own purposes. And justly indeed is he led captive, who had led men unjustly into bondage; while man, who had been led captive in times past, was rescued from the grasp of his possessor (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 3)
Again, Satan is the captive now. He is in a spiritual prion. He is limited with spiritual chains! The spiritual chains that Satan placed upon the wicked to restrain them in a spiritual prison on this earth were now destroyed by Christ and, in turn, placed upon Satan. Obviously, these are not physical chains. Obviously, this is not a literal physical prison that is separate from this earth.

The Word of God, however, the Maker of all things, conquering him by means of human nature, and showing him to be an apostate, has, on the contrary, put him under the power of man. For He says, Behold, I confer upon you the power of treading upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, in order that, as he obtained dominion over man by apostasy, so again his apostasy might be deprived of power by means of man turning back again to God Against Heresies (Book 5, Chapter 24).​

Irenaeus saw the binding of Satan as pertaining to the liberty of mankind, not some individual human being released.

Every single reference to the binding of Satan here relates to the defeat of Satan at the cross and the taking back of what Adam forfeited in the fall. You fail to even acknowledge that or address that. To do so would obliterate your whole argument.
 

Ronald Nolette

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1 Corinthians 11.26 seems to link the church specifically with the Rapture, implying that other Scriptures about events on earth later are not ones which must happen before the Lord returns for His church.

There has never been any preconditions for the rapture to happen. That is why it has been called imminent by those who accept the rapture. It could happen tonight or right before the antichrist signs the covenant with Israel. Several events have to happen before teh tribulation starts, but for th erapture? NADA!
 

Ronald Nolette

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I sincerely believe the opposite is true. Premill does that. Amill uses many NT scriptures to corroborate their interpretation of Rev 20.
Premill struggles to do this.

that i9s not true! The passage clearly says 1000 years when those who were beheaded for not taking the mark reign with Jesus. It is amil- that spiritualizes the number to make it some ephemeral time frame.

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Some new believer without any study in premil or amil would say this means 1000 years and you know that.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The natural man would do well to listen to what the Spirit is saying.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear and heed what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes [the world through believing that Jesus is the Son of God] will not be hurt by the second death (the lake of fire).’

All one needs to do is believe and follow Jesus and not come into the judgment, just like John writes in Jn 5.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


John is saying the same thing in Rev 20. Those who share in Jesus who is the resurrection and the life will not be hurt by the second death (judgment)

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


Nothing here of a physical resurrection that would contradict the other passages


All you say is true but has nothing to do with the 1,000 years and the amil reinterpretation of its time frame.
 

farouk

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There has never been any preconditions for the rapture to happen. That is why it has been called imminent by those who accept the rapture. It could happen tonight or right before the antichrist signs the covenant with Israel. Several events have to happen before teh tribulation starts, but for th erapture? NADA!
@Ronald Nolette I agree with this understanding; and in 1 Cor. 11.26 the rapture is clearly linked with the church as opposed to some other entity.
 

Ronald Nolette

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@Ronald Nolette I agree with this understanding; and in 1 Cor. 11.26 the rapture is clearly linked with the church as opposed to some other entity.

The rapture, which Paul said we should comfort one another with the reality of it, has become such a thorny issue in teh church. The timing of teh rapture has ewven split congregations!

I am 100% convinced tha the rapture is pretrib. There is very very little written on the timing, so what is written is of great importance!

The tribulation period or as I am more inclined to call it now the 70th week of Daniel, is always referred to as the wrath of God being poured out. When not modified by some other description, it is also called THE day of the Lord.

Paul in Thessalonians declared we will be delivered from the wrath to come. The only other wrath is gods general wrath for sin. Teh lake of fire is never called Gods wrath.
 

Ronald Nolette

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This isn't important enough to me to try to remember that. If you remember, fine, and if you don't, fine. Either way, we both know that we will still disagree. But, it would be nice to know how you come to your conclusions on this particular issue.


I will list things by heading and provide the verses that show the heading

GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM:

Ps. 15:1-5
Ps. 24:1-6
Is. 2:2-4
Is. 11:6-9
Is. 65:17-25 (this cannot refer to heaven unless you believe people can sin in heaven)
MICAH 4:1-5

GOVERNMENT OF TEH MESSIANIC KINGDOM:

A) JESUS AS KING AND MESSIAH

PS. 2:6-8
IS. 9:6-7
JER. 23:5-6
JER.33:14-17
ZECH:14:9
lUKE 1:30-33
REV. 12:5
REV. 19:15
pS. 72:1-19
iS. 11:1-5

B) GENTILE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT:

REV. 20:4-6

C) JEWISH BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT:

JER. 30:9
EZ. 34:23-24
EZ. 27:24-25
HOOS. 3:5

D) THE TWELVE APOSTLES

MT. 19:28
lUKE 22:28-30

E) PRINCES

EZ. 45:8
hAGGAI 2:20-23

F) JUDGES AND COUNSELORS

DEUT. 15:6
DEUT. 28:1
DEUT. 28:13
IS. 14:1-2


ISRAEL IN THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM

A) ISRAEL'S REGENERATION

JER. 31:31-34
IS. 29:22-24
IS. 30:18-22
IS 44:1-5
IS. 44:21-23
IS.45:17
JER. 24:7
JER. 50:19-20
EZ. 11:19-20
EZ. 36:25-27
HOSEA 1:10-2:1
HOS. 14:4-8
JOEL 2:28-32
MIC 7:18-20
ZEPH. 3:9-13.
 

farouk

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I will list things by heading and provide the verses that show the heading

GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM:

Ps. 15:1-5
Ps. 24:1-6
Is. 2:2-4
Is. 11:6-9
Is. 65:17-25 (this cannot refer to heaven unless you believe people can sin in heaven)
MICAH 4:1-5

GOVERNMENT OF TEH MESSIANIC KINGDOM:

A) JESUS AS KING AND MESSIAH

PS. 2:6-8
IS. 9:6-7
JER. 23:5-6
JER.33:14-17
ZECH:14:9
lUKE 1:30-33
REV. 12:5
REV. 19:15
pS. 72:1-19
iS. 11:1-5

B) GENTILE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT:

REV. 20:4-6

C) JEWISH BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT:

JER. 30:9
EZ. 34:23-24
EZ. 27:24-25
HOOS. 3:5

D) THE TWELVE APOSTLES

MT. 19:28
lUKE 22:28-30

E) PRINCES

EZ. 45:8
hAGGAI 2:20-23

F) JUDGES AND COUNSELORS

DEUT. 15:6
DEUT. 28:1
DEUT. 28:13
IS. 14:1-2


ISRAEL IN THE MESSIANIC KINGDOM

A) ISRAEL'S REGENERATION

JER. 31:31-34
IS. 29:22-24
IS. 30:18-22
IS 44:1-5
IS. 44:21-23
IS.45:17
JER. 24:7
JER. 50:19-20
EZ. 11:19-20
EZ. 36:25-27
HOSEA 1:10-2:1
HOS. 14:4-8
JOEL 2:28-32
MIC 7:18-20
ZEPH. 3:9-13.
@Ronald Nolette The Messianic content in the OT shows an amazing unity of Scripture....... :)
 
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Ronald Nolette

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This isn't important enough to me to try to remember that. If you remember, fine, and if you don't, fine. Either way, we both know that we will still disagree. But, it would be nice to know how you come to your conclusions on this particular issue.


PART 2

THE REGATHERING OF ISRAEL:

A) LAND COVENANT

dEUT.30:1-10

B) PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENT

IS. 11:11-12:6
IS. 27: 12-13
IS. 43:5-7
JER. 16:14-15
jER.23:3-4
JER. 23:7-8
JER. 31:7-10
EZ. 11:14-18
EZ.36:24
AMOS 9:14-15
ZEPH 3:18-20
ZECH 10: 8-12
MT. 24:31

C) POSSESSION OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL

BASIS-ABRAHAMIC COVENANT GEN. 12:1-3, 7
GEN.13:14-17
GE. 15:12-21

CONFIRMED TO ISAAC

gEN. 26:2-5

TO JACOB

GEN. 28:13-15

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENT
LEV. 26:40-45
DEUT.30:5
iS.27:12
IS. 30:23-26
IS. 35:1-2
IS. 65:21-24
JER. 31: 1-6, 11-14
EZ. 28:5-6
EZ. 34:25-31
EZ. 36:8-15, 28-38
JOEL 2: 18-27

ISRAEL REUNITED AS ONE NATION NOT TWO

JER. 3:18
EZ. 37:15-23

ISRAEL AS TEH CENTER OF GENTILE ATTENTION

IS. 14:1-2
IS. 49:22-23
IS. 61:4-9
MICAH 7:14-17
ZEPH. 3:20
ZECH 8:23

MILLENIAL SYSTEM OF PRIESTHOOD AND SACRIFICE

EZ. 44:1-46:24
JER.3:16

tHERE ARE OTHER CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MILLENIAL KIKNGDOM PROPHESIED IF YOU ARE STILL INTERESTEDS AFTER READING ALL THESE PASSAGES.
 

Randy Kluth

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Peter describes the holy nation in a previous verse:

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Explain how this refers to the Christ-rejecting nation of Israel, which was about to be, and would be, utterly destroyed.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? As I said Peter is addressing Christian Jews. They are part of the international Church.
 

Randy Kluth

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Where does it mention "Christian nations" in the Bible? This seems to be another invention of your.

Your lack of attention to biblical truth that you don't want to hear is amazing!

Gal 3. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.
 

Randy Kluth

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It is not my aim to be disrespectful. I am here to engage with those who want to address the issues. It is hard to interact with you due to the tactics you employ.

Maybe you should stop thinking the worst of me? I'm not using "tactics" at all! This isn't anything more than a friendly exchange of ideas, to determine what God is saying. None of us see clearly all the time, and it is to my benefit to engage with Christians on all these matters, no matter who ends up being right in the end. We're all on the same side. We aren't enemies, and we aren't in a competition. We're trying to hold each other up, and save each other's sense of self-worth.

Perhaps you fear that I'm trying to "take the mickey out of you?" Well, that's a lie from the bad one. I'm your friend and brother. You don't need to jab at me every time you answer.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Was Jesus being "sensitive" when he warned us not to take away from the words of his book?
That has nothing to do with how sensitive you're being about it. You're not Jesus. It's not up to you to decide who is adding or taking away from the book or not. It's up to Him. And I have never done that. Do you understand that it's talking about someone purposely doing that? I would never accuse you of doing that because I know that you're not misinterpreting the book on purpose.

This is not a lack of love for you.
It's a complete lack of respect. You clearly could not care less if you offend me by your choice of terms even when you know how much disdain I have for that particular term.

It is unreasonable for you to protest and say, "Don't call me an Atheist" if that's exactly what you are.
Of course, but I'm not a replacement theologian. Don't tell me otherwise. That's not your place to do so.

If you say, "Don't say I'm a bad person," when that's exactly what you are. There are loving ways to tell people what they are, but it isn't by denying what they are.
You don't tell me who I am or what I believe. That's not your job. Do you understand that? That isn't up to you.

I assure you, if RT wasn't the best way of abbreviating our disagreement, I wouldn't use it. But we simply have to abbreviate when we can.
It isn't a good way to describe what I believe at all because in my view no one gets replaced. It's not up to you to tell me what I believe, it's up to me to tell you what I believe. And I don't believe in replacement theology.
 

WPM

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Maybe you should stop thinking the worst of me? I'm not using "tactics" at all! This isn't anything more than a friendly exchange of ideas, to determine what God is saying. None of us see clearly all the time, and it is to my benefit to engage with Christians on all these matters, no matter who ends up being right in the end. We're all on the same side. We aren't enemies, and we aren't in a competition. We're trying to hold each other up, and save each other's sense of self-worth.

Perhaps you fear that I'm trying to "take the mickey out of you?" Well, that's a lie from the bad one. I'm your friend and brother. You don't need to jab at me every time you answer.

I am not thinking the worst. I have no desire to jab. I would like you to be fair and objective, even if the evidence is difficult for your case. What is more, I am furnishing you with research that has taken considerable study and do not appreciate your constantly overlooking it when it is at the core of what we are discussing.
 

WPM

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Your lack of attention to biblical truth that you don't want to hear is amazing!

Gal 3. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.

Who is jabbing now?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Laid bare is not the earth dissolving into nothing.
I didn't say that it means that, but the fire clearly will come down on the entire earth just like the waters covered the entire earth in Noah's day. That is what Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:6-7.

2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
 

WPM

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Maybe you should stop thinking the worst of me? I'm not using "tactics" at all! This isn't anything more than a friendly exchange of ideas, to determine what God is saying. None of us see clearly all the time, and it is to my benefit to engage with Christians on all these matters, no matter who ends up being right in the end. We're all on the same side. We aren't enemies, and we aren't in a competition. We're trying to hold each other up, and save each other's sense of self-worth.

Perhaps you fear that I'm trying to "take the mickey out of you?" Well, that's a lie from the bad one. I'm your friend and brother. You don't need to jab at me every time you answer.

The context of this is your false labelling of Amils as Replacement Theologians that you deliberately and constantly do despite being shown what we believe. We can only conclude you do it as a slur so as to agitate your opponents. If you were sincere here you would stop your false accusations.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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You can say it if you want.
Of course I can.

But the fact remains, virtually all reasonable people know that the word "thousand" can be taken in several different ways.
Of course, but, unfortunately, I run into a fair amount of unreasonable people on these forums, so I need to spell things out sometimes to people like that.

The problem, however, is that an effort is being made, often, to make use of an interpretive fallacy, one that wishes to find a "biblical use" of the word "thousand" and then apply it to the book of Revelation.
Empty words.

I don't think you are. However, you should be warned that allegorizing a message in the book of Revelation, where it is not justified, is condemned by Jesus.
Do you think I don't know that? Of course I do. But, guess what, Randy. You are not the one who decides for me what I should take literally and what I should take allegorically.

I should think your honest view that a "thousand years" can mean a symbolic thousand years is just an opinion. And I'm just stating that you should state it as such, to be safe.
Good grief, man. We all know that we're sharing our opinions here. Do we have to spell that out constantly as if we're all little children who can't discern anything unless it's spelled out for us? Show me where I said that the thousand years being symbolic is a fact. I didn't. Do I believe it and come across that I strongly believe that? Sure. But, have I said it's a proven fact? No.

Again, one cannot say that because a book contains lots of symbolism that everything stated in the book is to be taken as such.
LOL! Who has said that? No one. Please stop wasting your time making straw man arguments. You can if you want, but it's a complete waste of time.



Each case stands on its own merits, which is the context.
Of course! Do you actually think I believe otherwise?

If the context is not explicitly suggestive of a symbolic application, it should be taken as literal.
Here's where you go off the rails. This is your man-made rule that you're trying to push on me. I don't need to go by your man-made rules.

The book clearly contains a lot of symbolism. But, you think our default in any given verse should be to assume that it's literal? That is utter nonsense! But, at the same time, we should also not assume any given verse is symbolic. We need to look at the context for any given verse to see if it is literal or symbolic while at the same time keeping in mind the rest of scripture so that we don't interpret any given verse or passage in such a way that contradicts any other scripture.

What do Amils base their allegorization of the Millennium on?
Do you seriously not know? After all these years of debating Amils, you don't know this? We base it on scripture as a whole, of course! We refuse to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts what we see taught in many other scriptures. For example, other scripture indicates that Jesus reigns now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5, etc.) and that we are priests of the Father and Son now (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9). So, we interpret Revelation 20 accordingly.

It seems to be an up front assumption that Israel has been cut off and replaced by the Church.
I don't care for your assumptions. I do not believe that the nation Israel has been cut off and replaced by the Church. According to Paul in Romans 11, it was individual people from the nation of Israel who lacked faith that were cut off while those who had faith remained. And Gentile believers were grafted in with the Israelite believers as one body (figuratively represented in Romans 11 as a cultivated olive tree).

But today, with the resurrection of the state of Israel, we now have renewed faith in the ultimate salvation of national Israel.
Salvation is an individual thing. Personal, individual faith in Christ is what saves someone. So, this national salvation thing is something I believe is not taught anywhere in scripture.

And so, Premillennialism has once again appeared in Christian history. Actually, it has never fully gone away.
Both Amil and Premil have been around from the beginning. People disagreed about these things long ago and we still do today.

I most definitely wasn't doing that. I'm saying that because a book has a lot of symbolism it doesn't mean that everything in the book is to be taken symbolically.
Do you really think you need to tell me that? When have I ever said that everything in the book is to be taken symbolically? Never. Do I see more symbolism in the book than you do? Sure. But, do I believe that all of it symbolic? No.

It said I exceeded the max amount of allowable characters in this post, so I'll have to divide it up into two posts.
 
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