Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So God did not force you to believe Amil?But, He isn't going to force anyone to believe. Never has and never will.
You chose that erroneous view of Scripture all on your own?
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
So God did not force you to believe Amil?But, He isn't going to force anyone to believe. Never has and never will.
No, you claim this "gateway to perfection" is the here and now on earth. They saw it post the Second Coming. That is pre-mill because the Second Coming happens and then this chilia period. They did not call this future intermediate state, the here and now.Papias, Irenaeus, and Tertullian were NOT Premil. they were Chiliast. These were 2 different animals. Ancient Chiliasm was mild compared to what we have with modern-day Premillennialism. In fact, the ancient Millennialist view holds more fundamentals in common with modern-day Amillenniliasm than Premillennialism. Whilst Chiliasts believed there would be a literal thousand years of time following the second coming they anticipated a perfect renewed earth devoid of corruption and sin. They saw the destruction of all the wicked and the regeneration of our current earth at (and through) the glorious coming of Christ, like Amils.
The thousand years were merely envisioned as a final perfect conclusion to a seven thousand period of time. It was a perfect Sabbath rest of the glorified saints. It was essentially the perfect glorified porch-way into eternity. Amillennialists also see the elimination of the wicked and all corruption at His return, albeit they anticipate a new perfected earth.
There is no mention of Satan being bound now nor loosed for a little season. So you are declaring that "no mention" means they believe one way, when that is not a given. No one seems to declare the totality of Scripture nor the totality of what they may or may not accept. Just because people cannot get their facts straight, does not mean pre-mill is wrong.Ancient Chiliasts had a very rigid system of eschatological belief in 7000 literal rigid years of human history. After this, they believed the redeemed were into the new heaven and new earth. That may explain why “time” comes to an end right at the very completion of their future millennium and how they make no allowance for Satan’s little season.
Another strong reason why they did not accept Satan’s little season at the end was because of their expectation of a future millennium. They saw it as a perfect pristine unspoiled arrangement that was liberated from all the bondage of corruption. That meant they saw no sin or sinners, no decay or disease, no dying or crying, no devil or his demons.
They believed that Satan and his demons were destroyed at the second coming. It is not just that the ECFs believed Satan was bound at the First Advent, not one early writer that I can find (up until AD240) taught a further binding of Satan at the second coming. You are trying to foist that upon them without the slightest evidence (or justification) to do so. What is more, they believed the devil and his angels were destroyed at the second coming. So, there was no evil one to populate the age to come and no wicked to deceive. This too is akin to modern day Amil. Think about this: for 210 years after the death of Christ all the Fathers anticipated a perfect age to come free of the bondage of corruption and free of all rebellion in the visible and invisible realm.
It is certainly significant that there was a widespread acceptance among the early Chiliast writers that Satan was bound through the earthly ministry of Christ. But what runs hand-in-hand with that is the fate of Satan when Jesus comes. The most startling thing about the beliefs of the earliest Millennialists who spoke of this is that they believed Satan, his minions and all evil would finally be eliminated at the second coming. This is extremely surprising because it runs totally contrary to what is loudly taught today by all modern Premillennials, of all sections. An obvious and vital by-product of that is that it eliminates the whole idea of Satan’s little season 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. This is undoubtedly a curious position, allowing for the actual detail of Revelation 20. This suggests that early apostate Judaism had a greater influence on the formulation of this early Chiliasts theory than Revelation 20. In fact, early Millennialists seem to have acquired many of their core early beliefs from Christ-rejecting Judaism.
Justin Martyr
One of the leading early Chiliast proponents of this was Justin Martyr. He believed that Satan would be destroyed at our Lord’s return:
[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).
This couldn’t be clearer! This ancient writer depicts the termination of all evil at the glorious return of Christ. Justin explains how Satan, his angels and death itself are destroyed at the second coming of Christ. This allows no room for the Premillennialism scheme where Satan is bound 1,000 years after the second coming and then released to gather Gog and Magog to fight Christ and the glorified saints. Not only is Satan and his minions and death destroyed at Christ’s coming, but, all the bondage of corruption is destroyed. He teaches that there shall be “freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief.” This, paradoxically, is one of the main dividing points between Amillennial/Postmillennial teaching and that of Premillennialism reference the appearing of our Lord.
He further states in another work:
For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).
The second coming sees the elimination of every enemy of righteousness. The coming of Christ is climactic. In the eyes of most of the earliest Chiliast writers there was no allowance for sin and Satan, crying and dying, Satan and his minions on a future millennial earth. It is a new perfect porchway into the eternal realm.
For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born (1st Apology of Justin, Chapter 28).
According to Justin, the seeming delay in the return of Christ is for the special purpose of the salvation of souls. But when this occurs, he indicates the punishment of Satan, his devils, and the wicked occurs. The fate of all of these are carefully tied together. They are all punished at the same time. He states in the same book:
[Y]ou hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).
Once again, the second coming is presented as the time when the devil and all evil come to an end. This is clear and repeated in the teaching of these early Chiliasts.
No, because Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron in Jerusalem. That fire at the end is from God and is literal fire that literally consumes those people. Fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah does not imply Jesus' Second Coming to destroy those cities.Sure there is, Jesus Christ at his "Second Coming" is the fire seen in Revelation 20:9 coming out of heaven
Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are emptyNo, because Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron in Jerusalem. That fire at the end is from God and is literal fire that literally consumes those people. Fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah does not imply Jesus' Second Coming to destroy those cities.
Yes, there is a refining fire at the Second Coming. But there is not a Second Coming nor implied Second Coming, every time fire comes down from heaven. Elijah called down fire from Heaven. That was not the Second Coming of Jesus. Fire from heaven can happen, and not mean nor imply the Second Coming.
I was commenting on the same verses you posted. Do I need to put them in my response if they are already in the quoted material you posted?Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are empty
Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are empty
Amils rightly consider the intra-Advent period to be an indefinite period. This is last days period running through to the second coming. It is therefore proper to view Revelation 20 the same. The symbolic usage of numbers in Revelation reinforces that. The genre of Revelation and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of understanding. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Of course not! It means a short period of time. A thousand years represents a long period of time.
- Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
- Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
- Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
- Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
- Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
- Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
- Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
- Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
- Does imprisonment mean immobility?
- Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
- Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
- Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
- Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
Provide the information, or apologize for lying again.
You are missing the crucial point. The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.
The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.
Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.
Provide the information, or apologize for lying again.
"You Continue To Teach Error"And why would Jesus need a rod =of iron in heaven to rule over us? Are we going to be able tro sin in heaven? Your scriptural evidence?
"You Continue To Teach Error"Lete me repeat again: He shepherds the sheep with a rod of iron. Why does he need such a stiff rod? the same He uses to smash the heathen? Jesus doesn't shepherd the goats.
And why would Jesus need a rod =of iron in heaven to rule over us? Are we going to be able tro sin in heaven? Your scriptural evidence?
1. Who was the beast that reigned before Jesus?