LOL. Years of debating with Premils shows them to be the spiritualists.
What a load .... !
Making up lies does not make your ... LOL years of debate creditable.
Odd you do not know, it actually makes your claims... NOT creditable.
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LOL. Years of debating with Premils shows them to be the spiritualists.
Spiritual Israelite said: ↑
If we have the gall to question their beliefs then it seems some of them think it means we're part of a devil worshiping cult. It's unreal.
Yes, that was silly. And yes, this guy is the most desperate guy I've ever seen on this subject!
Actually, it's common for Amils to want to show how the number "1000" can be used in a symbolic sense. The hope is to prove that it *always* is used in the Bible, which of course flies in the face of legitimate interpretation. Words must be defined by their context, and not by "common use" alone.
Trying to determine that the "thousand" years in Rev 20 is symbolic because of its being used as a figure of speech elsewhere is using an interpretive fallacy. "Thousand" can be used symbolically in one place, and literally in another place. I'm with you--in Rev 20, the Millennium is used in a literal way in a real setting. It is not symbolic.
Oh, so the following is referring to a literal one thousand generations then? According to your logic, it must be.
Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.
So, God only keeps His covenant of love for one thousand generations and then His covenant expires? Tough luck to the 1001st generation, I guess, right?
Yet Amil will not base their point on reality even if it can be proven.
The whole point is based on an indefinite period of time which has to be symbolic instead of literal.
If the first 6 days were a literal 24 hr time period, and the Sabbath was 1,000 years, then the 6,000 years since the fall could be compared with a Sabbath day without end. God compared His time of 6 24 hour days with a 7th day lasting 1,000 years to let the earth work out creation.
Modern Amil do not get their doctrine from those same alledged ecf, any more than any other modern day eschatology. Amil today have switched from a future 1,000 years, to the current here and now of the last 1992 years.
Sin and Adam's dead corruptible flesh, is still an ongoing phenomenon.
It is a mystery to me how amils think. I know completely 1,000 years is used euphemistically in Scripture, but the construct of the passage always lets you know! It is almost like to read SCripture as a covenant theology believer or amil you have to suspend all the universal rules of grammar .
Not according to my logic, but rules of grammar. This is most likely a euphemistic use of 1,000 years based on construct and other passages of Scriptrure dealing with the same subject. but for all we know fro Adam untill eternity arrives for us could be 1,000 generations.
buit even if trhis is a euphemism (which it may well be) it still doesn't warrant taking the 6 occurrences of 1,000 years as symbolic.
It is a mystery to me how amils think. I know completely 1,000 years is used euphemistically in Scripture, but the construct of the passage always lets you know! It is almost like to read SCripture as a covenant theology believer or amil you have to suspend all the universal rules of grammar .
Yes, Amil today are in a more obnoxious place today, in my view. Early Amils gave up on the idea of Israel's restoration quite frankly because the Jews showed no capability of doing so. But in our day, the Jews have formed a new state, and there are Messianic Jewish groups everywhere. The early Amil focus was properly on salvation, without particular emphasis on the Jewish Hope. But today, the focus should be on the inclusiveness of salvation, allowing Jews the opportunity for repentance. My opinion.
The Revelation is filled with symbolism. But it's important to not impose symbolic interpretations on statements not explicitly implied to be such.
I personally believe the 6 days of creation were periods of time, attended by the figurative "morning and evening" in order to show that in God's time clock a "day is as a thousand years." It was a set period of time dedicated to accomplishing stated tasks.
But the tasks were of limited duration, indicating that the 7th day of rest was also of limited duration. That indicates the idea of a Millennial rest, rather than an eternal rest, even if eternal rest was the eventual goal.
The early Chiliasts were certainly not Amil, as PM ludicrously claims, and modern Amils certainly do not get their notion of an eternal Millennial rest from them! The Chiliast view of the Millennial Day Sabbath certainly does *not* provide them with their idea of a current NT period of "rest!"
Yes, we are *not* in the Kingdom Age presently. We do not experience sinless paradise, anymore than Amils complain that our Millennium is a sinless paradise. The Millennial Kingdom will, however, be paradise for glorified Christians, and since we will rule over the Millennial earth it will certainly be a much better earth than today! My opinion.
The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a general figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognize the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.
Premils are so blinkered by what they have been taught that they cannot see the figurative import of a thousand in Scripture. To accept that would instantly blow their beliefs out of the water. 10, 100, 1,000 and 10,000 are often used as round figures in Scripture to describe greater truths. We do the same today.
This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.
Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).
People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand should be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.
Few objective onlookers will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature. It is only the blinkered who must disagree on this figurative statement.
The opposite is actually the truth. Amillennialists lets the rest of Scripture locate and interpret Rev 20. Premil lets Rev 20 locate and interpret the rest of Scripture. They do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.
How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
It is obvious that you realize you have zero support from the ECFs right up until AD 240.
Your responses and complaints are no better than a grade school argument. "Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't." If all you want to do is respond by copying and pasting the same things, without answering a single point, you're wasting your time. And you're showing the poverty of your arguments.
I've showed you in this thread the early Chiliasts were *not* Amil!
I've showed you IRENAEUS believed not just in the Millennium, but also in the fact Satan will be bound at the 2nd Coming, when the Millennial Age begins. This is well within your time frame.
I've showed you that the heretical Chiliasts were very different from Modern Premils inasmuch as they were heterodox, and the Modern Premils are orthodox, and they did not view common beliefs in the same way, indicating that Premils was not derived from a heretical brand of Chiliasm.
But you just continue to copy and paste, showing the bankrupt state of your arguments, which consist mainly of insults. It amazes me that when you provoke defensive reactions from me, you complain bitterly that I'm being mean to you. Get over it, and be a man! Better yet, learn to practice Christ's love, and stop emulating the old angry men who fought this battle in such harsh tones.
Are we going to have to do this with every number in Scripture?
Bu9t let me tell it is literal. Why? Because the word hour (hora) while primarily meaning 60 minutes, in koine greek is also used to denote a time frame or season. So yes they rule with the antichrist for a season.
Next one? Maybe you should check the Greek first before trying to trip me up. this one was too easy.
The only thing that you have showed on this thread so far is your own ignorance of the subject. You have failed to prove any of your claims. You imagine if you say something over and over again then it becomes a fact. Well that is not the way it works. That is a severe delusion. You must provide historic data. You do the same with Scripture. You make wild unsubstantiated claims without supporting it with hard Scripture. Up untill now you have nothing to bring to the table. You know it. The reader knows it.
Until you stop making false claims I will keep repeating these avoided questions.
You are gas-lighting. And that is your MO. "You know it. Everybody knows it." If you really believe this, why are you so insistent that everybody agrees with it?
Suit yourself. I should think people stopped reading your copy and pastes a long, long time ago. I actually did try to answer them, and this is what I get. Complaints about treating you badly, and claims that I never answered you, and suggestions that everyone agrees with you and knows how wrong I am. Grow up!
So, @Paul Malcomson .... Can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth?
Premillennialism, is the belief that Jesus will return to Earth before the millennium, thousand year reign.
Rev 6
[1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Seems to me the Tribulation of God has begun...
So, @Paul Malcomson .... Can you identify the Scripture of when Jesus returns to earth?
Except the church does not experience direct tribulation come from God, that tribulation is for the unsaved unbelieving world.
What you calling tribulation is not a proper use of the word. Time of tribulation is not for the church. In fact the kingdom of the Beast world government system yet to come, kills all who will not worship the beast or his image. Their death is not tribulation come from God. But the people who belong to the Beast, who are marked with his name, do experience tribulation come from God.