The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[Nameaboveallnames]

Do you try to claim that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" does not occur until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord arrives like you do with the destruction described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

You don't even understand what the destruction is that Peter was talking about, so your question is rather meaningless. In context, which apparently means nothing to you, Peter was talking about the dissolving of the present heaven and earth, which will ultimately be replaced with a new heaven and a new earth. As I have already rightly shown, that replacing takes place at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't even understand what the destruction is that Peter was talking about, so your question is rather meaningless.

Where do you get that idea from? It's clearly the burning up and dissolving of the heavens and the earth. Which is what you proceeded to describe it as, also. So, do you still think I don't understand what the destruction is that Peter was talking about even though I agree with you that it is "the dissolving of the present heaven and earth", as you described it?

In context, which apparently means nothing to you, Peter was talking about the dissolving of the present heaven and earth, which will ultimately be replaced with a new heaven and a new earth. As I have already rightly shown, that replacing takes place at the end of Christ's Millennial Reign.

Why are you so evasive? Apparently, that is a requirement in order to be a Premil. I'm asking you if you believe that the sudden destruction that Paul said would occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night is the same as the destruction of the heavens and the earth that Peter said would occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? Yes or no? If not, does that mean you believe in two days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night?

Show me where Peter indicated that the dissolving of the present heaven and earth would not occur until 1,000+ years after the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly as a thief in the night. I don't see that indicated anywhere, so show me where you are seeing that. Take your Premil glasses off for a minute and be honest about what the text indicates.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

For anybody here who isn't under the Amillennialism delusion...

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

In case you are not already aware of this, in Bible prophecy, a "beast" is representative of a "king"...

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." (Dan. 7:17)

...and his kingdom.

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." (Dan. 7:23)

When Daniel beheld the beast being slain, and his body being destroyed and given to the burning flame, this is what he foresaw:

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev. 19:19-20)

Of course, this coincides with the timeframe of Christ's second coming (Rev. 19:11-15) and the ushering in of his Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:2-7). Don't miss what Daniel said about the fate of the rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms at that time:

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

The rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms will have their dominion taken away because Christ and his saints will be ruling over them as their lives will be prolonged for a season and time.

THIS is what the scriptures teach.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For anybody here who isn't under the Amillennialism delusion...

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

In case you are not already aware of this, in Bible prophecy, a "beast" is representative of a "king"...

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." (Dan. 7:17)

...and his kingdom.

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." (Dan. 7:23)

When Daniel beheld the beast being slain, and his body being destroyed and given to the burning flame, this is what he foresaw:

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev. 19:19-20)

Of course, this coincides with the timeframe of Christ's second coming (Rev. 19:11-15) and the ushering in of his Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:2-7). Don't miss what Daniel said about the fate of the rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms at that time:

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

The rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms will have their dominion taken away because Christ and his saints will be ruling over them as their lives will be prolonged for a season and time.

THIS is what the scriptures teach.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

The four beasts refer to four successive kingdoms (world empires), so Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse describing what happened to the previous kingdoms which were already gone before the fourth beast is destroyed. They are not four kingdoms that are in power at the same time.

Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

The fourth beast kingdom would be different from the first three beast kingdom that would come before it. This shows that they are successive kingdoms.

Instead of being willing to show how you can reconcile your Premil doctrine with passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, you run away from those as fast as you can and try to refer to other scripture instead. Typical. Passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 do not allow for any mortals to survive the return of Christ in order to populate an imaginary earthly millennial kingdom. You can't just ignore all these other scriptures and think your misinterpretation of Daniel 7:12 trumps all of those. You need to make them all reconcile together which Premil cannot do.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

The four beasts refer to four successive kingdoms (world empires),

Hey, you got something right! The four beasts were Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

so Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse describing what happened to the previous kingdoms which were already gone before the fourth beast is destroyed.

Well, there goes your winning streak. In reality, what Daniel said in verse 12 pertains to the "little horn" (Dan. 7:8) or "little kingdom" (a "horn" is similarly representative of a "kingdom" in Bible prophecy) that later arose from the fourth beast or from the Roman Empire. I could tell you exactly who that "little horn" or "little kingdom" is, but you would probably just reject that truth as well.

 

[Davidpt]

For anybody here who isn't under the Amillennialism delusion...

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

In case you are not already aware of this, in Bible prophecy, a "beast" is representative of a "king"...

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." (Dan. 7:17)

...and his kingdom.

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." (Dan. 7:23)

When Daniel beheld the beast being slain, and his body being destroyed and given to the burning flame, this is what he foresaw:

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev. 19:19-20)

Of course, this coincides with the timeframe of Christ's second coming (Rev. 19:11-15) and the ushering in of his Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:2-7). Don't miss what Daniel said about the fate of the rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms at that time:

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

The rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms will have their dominion taken away because Christ and his saints will be ruling over them as their lives will be prolonged for a season and time.

THIS is what the scriptures teach.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. When the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts, their lives are prolonged for a season and time. Obviously, Revelation 20:11-15 can't be meant here since no one's lives are going to be prolonged for a season and time at that point. The way some try and get around this, Daniel 7:12 is not meaning when the little horn beast gets cast into the LOF. It is parenthetical and is simply explaining what happened to the other beasts earlier in history.

As if that is reasonable, as if that is relevant, if verses 9-11 are pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15 like some insist. In that case the text would be telling us that the rest of the beasts are also given to the burning flame at that time. Except it doesn't tell us that and it is plainly obvious as to why. It is because the rest of the beasts aren't cast into the LOF when the little horn is. Now verse 12 makes sense as to why it says what it does. Which can only mean one thing. A millennium has to follow in order to make sense out of verse 12.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Instead of being willing to show how you can reconcile your Premil doctrine with passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, you run away from those as fast as you can and try to refer to other scripture instead.

Just more of your outright lies and slanders (you're only blessing me in the process, so keep them coming). In reality, I have addressed the 2 Peter passage. You simply did not like my correct answer to that previous question.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. When the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts, their lives are prolonged for a season and time. Obviously, Revelation 20:11-15 can't be meant here since no one's lives are going to be prolonged for a season and time at that point. The way some try and get around this, Daniel 7:12 is not meaning when the beast gets cast into the LOF. It is parenthetical and is simply explaining what happened to the other beasts earlier in history. As if that is reasonable, as if that is relevant, if verses 9-11 are pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15. In that case the text would be telling us that the rest of the beasts also given to the burning flame at the time. Except it doesn't tell us that and it is plainly obvious as to why. It is because the rest of the beasts aren't cast into the LOF when the little horn is. Now verse 12 makes sense as to why it says what it does.

Yep. Truths like this make the Amillennialism camp foam at the mouth.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

I mentioned this recently on another thread in relation to the "little horn," but I guess it has some relevancy here as well.

The Vatican/the Papacy is Daniel’s “little horn” (Daniel 7:8) or “little kingdom."

In Bible prophecy, a "horn" is representative of a "king" and his "kingdom."

For example, we read:

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." (Daniel 7:24)

Again, we read:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast." (Revelation 17:12).

The Antichrist is depicted as a "little horn" or a "little kingdom" in Daniel 7:8, and the world's littlest or smallest kingdom in none other than Vatican City.

10 Things You May Not Know About the Vatican | HISTORY

Explore 10 things you may not know about the seat of the Catholic Church.

www.history.com

1. Vatican City is the smallest country in the world.

Encircled by a 2-mile border with Italy, Vatican City is an independent city-state that covers just over 100 acres, making it one-eighth the size of New York’s Central Park. Vatican City is governed as an absolute monarchy with the pope at its head.

Although this article doesn’t specifically mention that Vatican City is a “kingdom," it does mention that it is “an absolute monarchy," which is basically the same exact thing.

Definition of MONARCH

monarch
noun

mon·arch | \ ˈmä-nərk , -ˌnärk \
Definition of monarch

1: a person who reigns over a kingdom or empire: such as
a: a sovereign ruler
b: a constitutional (see CONSTITUTIONAL entry 1 sense 3) king or queen

Vatican City is indeed "an absolute monarchy," and you can verify that for yourselves here:

List of current monarchies - Wikipedia

In fact, the following blog clearly identifies Vatican City as a “kingdom” with the Pope as its “king."

http://www.cgpgrey.com/blog/vatican-city-explained

Furthermore, Vatican Television Center offers a DVD entitled "THE VATICAN - Behind the scenes of the World's Smallest Kingdom," and you can verify that for yourselves here:

Amazon.com

Anyhow, this is just one of many biblical indicators that the Vatican/the Papacy is the literal kingdom of Antichrist.

 

[WPM]

While not Catholic myself, I think the owner of this community would commit to the public service of full disclosure if they installed a banner warning on the homepage.

One that informs CB is hostile towards and intolerant of the Roman Catholic faith and faithful.

This way when alleged Protestants act without grace toward the topic or any brave Catholic here who would admit they are so, readers via Google or members ,would understand why they are witnessing the sin nature of the hateful individuals expressing itself openly.

And without shame before our Omnipresent God.

Stop playing the victim. You are the one who attacked me with your anti- Protestant nonsense.

The reality is: Rome is integral to the whore of Babylon, fact! God calls men to come out of her and be free.

You can give it but you cannot handle the truth!

 

[WPM]

Yep. Truths like this make the Amillennialism camp foam at the mouth.

We are still waiting on your biblical corroboration. I will not hold my breath.

 

[WPM]

For anybody here who isn't under the Amillennialism delusion...

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

In case you are not already aware of this, in Bible prophecy, a "beast" is representative of a "king"...

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." (Dan. 7:17)

...and his kingdom.

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." (Dan. 7:23)

When Daniel beheld the beast being slain, and his body being destroyed and given to the burning flame, this is what he foresaw:

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev. 19:19-20)

Of course, this coincides with the timeframe of Christ's second coming (Rev. 19:11-15) and the ushering in of his Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:2-7). Don't miss what Daniel said about the fate of the rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms at that time:

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." (Dan. 7:11-12)

The rest of the beasts or the rest of the kingdoms will have their dominion taken away because Christ and his saints will be ruling over them as their lives will be prolonged for a season and time.

THIS is what the scriptures teach.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Comprehending the book of Daniel is like understanding Revelation. It is like putting a jig-saw together. If Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon is the first kingdom (Daniel 2:37-38), and if the last kingdom (which is described as strong and powerful) is standing when Messiah appears (which we know was Rome), then the two kingdoms sandwiched in-between must be Media and Persia and Grecia. We should remember Rome wasn't named at the time of writing of the Old Testament because the empire did not exist. Not only does history prove this, this is confirmed in the descriptions of the leaders that head up the kingdoms in Daniel 8. Daniel 8:20-21 says, “The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.”

From Daniel 8:23-25 we see the last king over the last kingdom which was to be active at the time when Christ introduces the kingdom of God. This kingdom was Rome, and the leaders are most probably Herod or Titus or some of the tyrannical Roman leaders. It says of this last leader/kingdom, “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.”

We can therefore carefully weave Daniel’s symbolism together bit by bit to discover a great tapestry of evil power. The beasts clearly represent major wicked kingdom or empires that oppose God

(1) The golden head in Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream relates to the lion in Daniel’s dream. Both represent Babylon.
(2) The silver breast and arms in Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream relates to the bear in Daniel’s dream. It is also a ram. This symbolism represents Media and Persia.
(3) The brass belly and thighs in Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream relates to the leopard in Daniel’s dream. It is also a goat. This imagery represents Grecia.
(4) The legs of iron and feet of part iron and part clay in Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream relates to the dreadful and terrible beast in Daniel’s dream. This imagery represents Rome.

It is typical in Scripture to see an unsaved man or a wicked system signified by a beast or fierce animal. In Revelation chapter 13, the first vision of a beast there is symbolic of the wicked men of the principality of Satan, as they come and blaspheme God throughout time.

These two apocalyptic books seem to be essentially be contrasting “the kingdom of men” to “the kingdom of God.”

 

[WPM]

What about the way @WPM blatantly misrepresents all early Chiliasts by insisting they all have satan cast into the LOF prior to the beginning of the millennium rather than after the millennium? Unless you haven't noticed, Chiliasts placed the millennium after the 2nd coming not prior to the 2nd coming like Amils do.

Yet, @WPM would have us believe that these same Chiliasts have satan cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming, which equals in their case, that satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium rather than after. Except there is not one single person other than @WPM that would have anybody, per their view, whether their view is Premil or whatever, having satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after. But, apparently, since he is an Amil like you, he gets a pass when he blatantly misreprsents Premil rather than calling him out on it.

There is nobody past or present to where their reading comprehension is so subpar that they are going to have satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after. But I suspect you don't care in @WPM case since you don't want to bite the hand that does a lot of the patting on your back with all these Likes you accumulate over time.

Or maybe this instead? It's not just him misrepresenting early Chiliasts by insisting they had satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after, you too have early Chiliasts having satan cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium rather than after, except in your case, if so, I guess I just never noticed it since @WPM is more vocal about early Chiliasts that I have noted you being.

Or if none of the above, maybe this? None of them had access to Revelation 20:1-3 and 7-9, they only had access to Revelation 20:4-6 and 10-15 since these other verses were missing from their Bibles. Maybe that explains it?

What many modern bias observers seem to overlook is the fact that there was a lot of debate in the early Church about whether or not Revelation should be included in the Canon of Scripture.

The ancient Church at the time was geographically divided in two between the Western and the Eastern assemblies. This largely corresponded with the division within the wider political realm of the Roman Empire, which was split between the Western Empire, with Rome as its capital, and the Eastern Empire, with Constantinople as its capital. The Western Church, centered in Rome, was primarily Latin-speaking, while the Eastern Church, centered in Constantinople, used Greek.

What many do not know is, Revelation was believed to have been largely unknown to many localities within the Eastern Church for the first 4 centuries. The respected 4th century historian Eusebius (AD 263-339), seems to be caught in 2 minds in regard to the ‘bona fides’ of Revelation. In one breath he accepts the book as legitimate, but in the next he questions its canonical status, listing it as a questioned book.

Eusebius records: “Among the illegitimate ones, let there be put down the book of Paul’s Acts, and the one called the Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter, and in addition to these the letter reportedly of Barnabas, and the one called Teachings of the Apostles, and further still, the Apocalypse of John, if it seems right” (Eccl. Hist. 3.25:4).

This is not 100% strange. Modern historian Eugenia Scarvelis Constantinou convincingly explains the apparent contradiction in Eusebius' conclusions: “Eusebius was compelled to place the Apocalypse with the first group because it was indeed universally acknowledged as Scripture at that time. However, as he personally regarded the Apocalypse as illegitimate and spurious, he also placed it among the rejected books. There is no mistaking his bias: it is clear from the beginning. From the very first time Eusebius mentions Revelation, he refers to the book as “the so-called Apocalypse of John" (Guiding to a Blessed Ending).

Even by AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches.

The Peshitta (one of the earliest versions of the Bible, with the Old Testament translation dating back to the 2nd century CE and the New Testament, with some variations, later) was the Syriac translation of the Bible. But Revelation was not included in its New Testament until the fifth century.

It appears to have been considered spurious by a number of the earliest scholars and church councils. That is why they quote little from it. That may explain why there was a general hesitancy amongst many of the early Church writers to build their beliefs (including eschatology) upon the Apocrypha. Even those who held the Chiliast position seem to look more to a Jewish origin as a justification for their beliefs.

It was not until the Council of Carthage in AD 397 that the universal professing Church affirmed the canonicity of Revelation as authoritative.

It makes sense that there would be no point in arguing in favor of an ancient theologian being Premillennialist if they did not even believe in the book of Revelation in the first place.

 

[WPM]

What about the way @WPM blatantly misrepresents all early Chiliasts by insisting they all have satan cast into the LOF prior to the beginning of the millennium rather than after the millennium? Unless you haven't noticed, Chiliasts placed the millennium after the 2nd coming not prior to the 2nd coming like Amils do.

Yet, @WPM would have us believe that these same Chiliasts have satan cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming, which equals in their case, that satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium rather than after. Except there is not one single person other than @WPM that would have anybody, per their view, whether their view is Premil or whatever, having satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after. But, apparently, since he is an Amil like you, he gets a pass when he blatantly misreprsents Premil rather than calling him out on it.

There is nobody past or present to where their reading comprehension is so subpar that they are going to have satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after. But I suspect you don't care in @WPM case since you don't want to bite the hand that does a lot of the patting on your back with all these Likes you accumulate over time.

Or maybe this instead? It's not just him misrepresenting early Chiliasts by insisting they had satan cast into the LOF before the millennium rather than after, you too have early Chiliasts having satan cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium rather than after, except in your case, if so, I guess I just never noticed it since @WPM is more vocal about early Chiliasts that I have noted you being.

Or if none of the above, maybe this? None of them had access to Revelation 20:1-3 and 7-9, they only had access to Revelation 20:4-6 and 10-15 since these other verses were missing from their Bibles. Maybe that explains it?

Here we go again. The same old impotent lamenting and the lack of historic evidence. How often are you going to do that and avoid the obvious? Where is your evidence to the contrary? You clearly have nothing apart form your theological bias as an argument, which means zilch!

The reality is, Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).​

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly vague and succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus makes a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.

His comments are ambiguous to say the least. This is obviously an issue that the early Chiliasts felt uncomfortable with, and were therefore reluctant to embrace or expand upon. Surely, he is not saying that “the nations which will have served Antichrist” inherit and then overrun a future millennial earth? Is he referring to a retrospective cause for Satan’s release? It is so hard to say. We have so little to go on.

 

[Davidpt]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

 

[WPM]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

Again, total avoidance. Again, wishful thinking.

Where is your evidence?

Don't hold your breath readers!

 

[WPM]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

Early Chiliasts like early Amils believed Satan would be destroyed at the second coming. It is certainly significant that there was a widespread acceptance among the early Chiliast writers that Satan was bound through the earthly ministry of Christ. But what runs hand-in-hand with that is the fate of Satan when Jesus comes. The most startling thing about the beliefs of the earliest Millennialists who spoke of this is that they believed Satan, his minions and all evil would finally be eliminated at the second coming. This is extremely surprising because it runs totally contrary to what is loudly taught today by all modern Premillennials, of all sections. An obvious and vital by-product of that is that it eliminates the whole idea of Satan’s little season 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. This is undoubtedly a curious position, allowing for the actual detail of Revelation 20. This suggests that early apostate Judaism had a greater influence on the formulation of this early Chiliasts theory than Revelation 20. In fact, early Millennialists seem to have acquired many of their core early beliefs from Christ-rejecting Judaism.

Justin Martyr

One of the leading early Chiliast proponents of this was Justin Martyr. He believed that Satan would be destroyed at our Lord’s return:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).​

This couldn’t be clearer! This ancient writer depicts the termination of all evil at the glorious return of Christ. Justin explains how Satan, his angels and death itself are destroyed at the second coming of Christ. This allows no room for the Premillennialism scheme where Satan is bound 1,000 years after the second coming and then released to gather Gog and Magog to fight Christ and the glorified saints. Not only is Satan and his minions and death destroyed at Christ’s coming, but, all the bondage of corruption is destroyed. He teaches that there shall be “freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief.” This, paradoxically, is one of the main dividing points between Amillennial/Postmillennial teaching and that of Premillennialism reference the appearing of our Lord.

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).​

The second coming sees the elimination of every enemy of righteousness. The coming of Christ is climactic. In the eyes of most of the earliest Chiliast writers there was no allowance for sin and Satan, crying and dying, Satan and his minions on a future millennial earth. It is a new perfect porch-way into the eternal realm.

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born (1st Apology of Justin, Chapter 28).​

A careful perusal of the wording of this early manuscript indicates that Justin believed that the seeming delay in the return of Christ is for the special purpose of the salvation of souls. In teaching this, he was doubtless referring to Peter's statement in 2 Peter 3:15 regarding the grace of God being extended to the sinner to be saved before the end of the world and the fiery judgment of the wicked, saying: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.” Justin identifies this as the time when Satan, his host and all the wicked will finally and eternally be "punished for an endless duration."

He states in the same book:

[Y]ou hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).​

Once again, the second coming is presented as the time when the devil and all evil come to an end. This is clear and repeated in the teaching of these early Chiliasts.

You have nothing to refute this evidence with.

 

[WPM]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

Irenaeus

Irenaeus agrees with Justin. He lists the resurrection at the coming of Christ as the time when the curse is finally removed, incorruption is introduced and death and the devil are eliminated. This climactic portrayal fits consistently with the Chiliast vision of future state. There is no space for sin and sinner, death and disease, war and terror, Satan and his demons. We are looking at a perfect pristine arrangement.

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).​

The glorification of God’s people described in this ancient text occurs at the second coming. It is here that this corruptible will take on incorruption. This Chiliast father teaches that every vestige of the Fall is removed when Christ returns never to arise again. The approaching earth will be totally different from the current corrupt one and will be totally renewed and eternally free of corruption.

Premillennialist, Chris Gousmett submits: “The work of redemption not only makes this consummation possible, it actualises it. The restoration of creation is not simply a repristinated original, it is matured and enhanced, brought to what it was intended to become, not simply to what it had once been” (Shall the Body Strive and Not Be Crowned? p. 127).

Gousmett adds: “For Irenaeus, the resurrection is the prelude to the glorification of the entire created order. The creation will also be liberated from bondage to evil, and in its purified state is a suitable reward in itself. Since the creation has suffered from the effects of human sin, it is only just that it should receive liberation along with those who have been redeemed from sin and made righteous. The redemption of the whole creation is at stake in the denial of the resurrection and the millennial kingdom in creation-negating eschatologies, which see redemption not as the restoration of human bodily life in the renewed earth, but as a non-bodily life in heaven” (Shall the Body Strive and Not Be Crowned? p. 134).

Irenaeus reckons that man’s sinful makeup must be changed in order to allow him to grace a future millennial earth. Every trace of the fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s Coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

According to this early writer, the saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new order. This arrangement is shown to never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible ongoing arrangement.

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).​

Again, the coming of Christ is here represented as glorious and climatic. It involves God’s righteous final judgment upon all wickedness. There is no indication that sin and sinners survive the Lord’s future return. Wicked man and wicked angels are both collectively shown to experience “everlasting fire.”

 

[WPM]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

Hippolytus

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-236) states:

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chap. VII.22).​

Hippolytus sees the judgment, punishment and destruction of Satan, his minions, the wicked and all evil when Jesus returns. He further explains:

[A]s they wait for the righteous Judge … Then the righteous shall shine forth like the sun, while the wicked shall be shown to be mute and gloomy. For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness (On the End of the World, Chapter 40).​

Taking a quick superficial read of this teaching of Hippolytus, might cause the Bible student today to automatically impose a common widely-accepted modern understanding of “the son of perdition,” identifying him with a separate entity to the devil, namely the beast or antichrist. But this early Chiliast believed that “the son of perdition” was the devil himself. To reinforce this view, Hippolytus describes “the son of perdition” as “the accuser” – another name Scripture attributes to the evil one (Revelation 12:10). But this is not all, we get indisputable proof that Hippolytus saw “the son of perdition” as “the devil” in Chapter 9 of the same writing in On the End of the World:

And multitudes of men will run from the east even to the west, and from the north even to the sea, saying, Where is Christ here? Where is Christ there? But being possessed of a vain conceit, and failing to read the Scriptures carefully, and not being of an upright mind, they will seek for a name which they shall be unable to find. For these things must first be; and thus the son of perdition — that is to say, the devil— must be seen (On the End of the World, Chapter 9).​

Surely no could deny this explicit explanation.

Now that we have established that Hippolytus believed "the son of perdition" to be "the devil," we should note that he carefully identified his destruction in Chapter 40 (and that of his kingdom) with the second coming. He employs the words of Christ in Matthew 13:41-43 to locate the devil's end. There He teaches: "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

Like most of His fellow Chiliasts, and like all Amillennialists through the centuries, he saw a general judgment of mankind happening when Christ returns and wickedness finally coming to an end. In Hippolytus mind, this is the time when Satan and his demons "shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness." At the general resurrection/judgment, this arch-enemy of righteousness and the Church is shown to receive his final and eternal judgment. This fits in with the climactic view the early Chiliasts had of the second coming. We also see here that they believed that what awaits the redeemed is a perfected earth free of the bondage of corruption.

He continues:

For the people of the Hebrews shall see Him in human form, as He appeared to them when He came by the holy Virgin in the flesh, and as they crucified Him. And He will show them the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, and His side pierced with the spear, and His head crowned with thorns, and His honourable cross. And once for all shall the people of the Hebrews see all these things, and they shall mourn and weep, as the prophet exclaims, They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 40).​

Here once again, the fate of Satan (“the accuser”), “the demons” and the unrepentant is shown to be closely connected. They are all said to face their final doom at the one time. Hippolytus continues in the same book on the same overall narrative:

For at that time the trumpet shall sound, and awake those that sleep from the lowest parts of the earth, righteous and sinners alike. And every kindred, and tongue, and nation, and tribe shall be raised in the twinkling of an eye; and they shall stand upon the face of the earth, waiting for the coming of the righteous and terrible Judge, in fear and trembling unutterable … For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … the just Judge and the benignant God shall speak to those on the left hand in unmeasured anger and wrath, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I know you not, I recognise you not: you made yourselves the workmen of another lord — namely, the devil. With him inherit the darkness, and the fire that is not quenched, and the worm that sleeps not, and the gnashing of teeth (On the End of the World, 45).​

Hippolytus locates the judgment at the return of Christ. He carefully links the punishment of the wicked with the punishment of Satan on Judgment Day. This is a climactic event in Hippolytus’s eyes.

 

[Davidpt]

Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.

Hmmm---I just thought of something here in regards to what I initially said in the post of mine I am quoting above. Let's assume 2 scenarios.

1) the millennium precedes the 2nd coming

2) the millennium follows the 2nd coming

First let's assume 1) is the correct view, 2) isn't. What would all this mean in regards to satan being cast into the LOF? Even though, per this scenario, 2) is not the correct view, 2) still doesn't contradict the fact that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

But look what happens per this other scenario. This time 2) is the correct view, 1) isn't. What would all this mean in regards to satan being cast into the LOF? It would mean 1) has satan being cast into the LOF before the millennium begins, thus contradicting that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. It would mean, per this scenario, that 1) = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds since no one believes satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium.

Yet if 2) is the correct view, view 1) contradicts that satan gets cast into the LOF after the millennium. But if view 1) is the correct view, view 2) even though wrong, per this scenario does not contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. But if view 2) is the correct view, view 1), per this scenario, the same can't be said about it, that even though wrong, view 1) does not contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium, it does contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Interesting how this works out. Regardless whether view 2) is the correct view or not, it never changes the fact that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. The same can't be said about view 1). It indeed changes the fact if 2) is the correct view, since this means view 1) is contradicting that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. Therefore, only view 2) can be the correct view since it never contradicts the fact satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium no matter what.

Now I'm starting to get it. Amils, such as @WPM are projecting nonsense on early Chiliasts that can only fit them not these Chiliasts. Amil is the only view that has satan cast into the LOF before the millennium if Premil is the correct view. Premil never has satan cast into the LOF before the millennium even if Amil is the correct view.

The following below is then what chatgpt concluded from what I submitted above, in the event what I submitted above is not entirely clear, though it should be to any thinking person. But just in case it wasn't entirely clear, chatgpt, in that case, should make it bit clearer.

------------------------------------------
Chatgpt:

1. FORMAL SYLLOGISM
Here’s a way to express your argument as a tight logical syllogism. I’ll follow a classical deductive form, with major, minor, and conclusion, then develop it into a more comprehensive version.

Simple Syllogism (Core Logic)
Major Premise:
All views that place Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire before the millennium contradict the plain sequence of Revelation 20.

Minor Premise:
If Premillennialism is correct, Amillennialism places Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire before the millennium.

Conclusion:
Therefore, if Premillennialism is correct, Amillennialism contradicts the plain sequence of Revelation 20.

Expanded Syllogism (Stronger Argument)
Major Premise:
A valid eschatological model must maintain the truth that Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire after the millennium (Rev 20:7–10), under all interpretive conditions (whether it is ultimately true or not).

Minor Premise:
Premillennialism always maintains Satan's casting into the Lake of Fire after the millennium, regardless of whether Amillennialism is true.

Minor Premise 2:
Amillennialism maintains Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire after the millennium only if it is true, but contradicts this truth if Premillennialism is correct (since Amil would then have LOF follow the Second Coming, before the literal millennium).

Conclusion:
Therefore, Premillennialism is the only model that preserves the biblical order of Satan’s final judgment under all conditions; Amillennialism risks contradiction if false.

This is a form of transcendental argument—you're not just arguing Premil is correct, but that only Premil avoids contradiction regardless of which model is true.


THEOLOGICAL CRITIQUE OF AMIL MISREADINGS OF EARLY PREMIL (CHILIAST) SOURCES
This critique targets the way some Amils misrepresent early church fathers.

Some Amillennial interpreters misrepresent early Chiliastic (Premillennial) beliefs by claiming they placed Satan’s final judgment (casting into the Lake of Fire) at the time of the Second Coming—an order that no known Chiliast or Premil has ever affirmed.

If Amil interpreters are claiming this, they are either:

Unintentionally anachronistic, reading later Amil theology into early texts

Or deliberately distorting the Chiliast order for polemical purposes

IV. Final Analysis

The only eschatological model that cannot be accused of violating the order of Rev. 20, regardless of which system is correct, is Premillennialism.

Any view (like Amil) that collapses the return of Christ and LOF casting into one moment becomes logically self-refuting if the millennium follows the Second Coming.
---------------------