The gods of amil.

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

It seems like some Premils have been trying to explain away spiritual resurrection upon salvation for the sole purpose that it exposes their interpretation, location and timing of Revelation 20. This has been easily, ably and repeatedly refuted by Amils on this board. The fact is: multiple NT passages (Luke 2:34, John 8:12, Romans 4:17, Romans 6:3-6, 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, Ephesians 2:1-6, Ephesians 5:14, Colossians 2:10-14, Colossians 3:1-4, I John 3:14) teach that we have experienced spiritual resurrection from spiritual death through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Premils also do the same with the spiritual quickening (described throughout the NT) that happens to the sinner upon salvation.

Sadly, many Premils do not seem to have any grasp of what it means to be spiritually quickened and resurrected from spiritual death. It is either this, or their faulty theology forces them into defending the indefensible. It would therefore be beneficial to let Scripture speak for itself.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 explains:

“The first man Adam was made a living soul.”

“the last Adam was made a quickening [Gr. zōopoieō] spirit."

And continues, “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.”

This text teaches us that our “natural” ‘soulish’ man came first; the “spiritual … heavenly” came second. This is talking about our old man and our new man. The old man is dead unto God and controlled by natural understanding and natural feelings. Our new man is our spiritual man who has been raised from spiritual death. He is God-conscience, and alive unto God. These two natures are in conflict with each other.

The Greek word interpreted "quickening" is zōopoieō meaning to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, give life. Metaphorically, it describes seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing.

We are talking about regeneration here! We are looking at the translation of a man from death to life. This is indeed supernatural, and is instigated by the Lord. The phrase "a quickening spirit" is talking about the initiator of life Jesus Christ; a quickened spirit is the recipient of that life.

 

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

Jesus said in John 6:63, “It is the spirit that quickeneth [Gr. zōopoieō]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

Man’s natural body and soul remain alive (in all men saved and lost) until physical death. It is therefore the spirit of man that is dead towards God that is (1) quickened (2) resurrected from its grave that begets life and therefore a new nature or the spiritual man. The spiritual man is “created in righteousness and true holiness” (Ephesians 4:24) and hence alive unto God.

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeirō] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzōopoieō] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which

Before salvation we were dead, obviously not physically, but spiritually. But when Christ breathed spiritual life into us, we were "quickened" (or made alive spiritually) and "raised" from the grave of our sin.

The word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

Once a person gets saved they are made spiritually alive through spiritual resurrection. This involves a spiritual birth. As a result, they enter into eternal life and consequently never die.

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zōopoieō] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzōopoieō] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. suzōopoieō] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

 

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

The problem is: you fail to see that there are two types of resurrection in Scripture, not one as you allege.

Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection (anastasis Strong’s 0386), and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Here we have the “first resurrection” mentioned (Christ’s glorious resurrection) that in turn results in a dual resurrection for the believer. To bring a believer from death to life as what we are seeing in this teaching of Christ is resurrection. The physical resurrection of Christ secured both spiritual and physical resurrection for the believer.

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection secured two distinct, yet inextricably linked, resurrections for the believer, not one as the Premillennialists repeatedly assert; the first being a spiritual resurrection – the new birth; the second being a physical resurrection of the just. Significantly, there are many passages in Scripture, which support this biblical supposition. We must therefore keep this though very much in our mind as we examine the allegorical passage before us in Revelation 20:6.

Jesus said in John 5:24-29, referring to these two different, yet inextricably linked, resurrections, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (speaking of our spiritual resurrection in Christ). For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (speaking of the second or physical resurrection); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There are clearly two resurrections here:

(1) Spiritual
(2) Physical

The first highlighted part here is clearly referring to the first resurrection, the spiritual resurrection that comes through having our part in Christ (Revelation 20:6). The terminology “the hour is coming, and now is” is used here and in other places to simply indicate – ‘the time is now upon us’ although it would have an immediate reality for every passing generation. The first resurrection outlined here is a spiritual resurrection pertaining solely to the elect: “the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live,” it relates to the here-and-now. The second relates to all the dead (saved and unsaved), "the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." It relates to the all-consummating resurrection day. The physical resurrection is therefore not restricted to the elect alone but to “the dead.” It is they in total that hear Christ’s voice, being raised to two different destinations.

 

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:
The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up [Gr. egeiro] from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake [Gr. egeiro] thou that sleepest, and arise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again [Gr. anastasis] (or resurrecting) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth [Gr. egeiro] the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

 

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzoopoieo] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

The wording relating to this spiritual resurrection – “ye are risen with him” – is translated from the Greek word sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891), which is derived from the coupling of two other Greek words sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness, and egeiro (Strong’s 1453), which means to awaken or resurrect from the dead. This word egeiro is constantly used in the New Testament in reference to Christ’s physical resurrection.

Also, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

Many new birth passages in Scripture are surrounded in resurrection terminology. Notwithstanding, they are not in any way referring to a physical resurrection, although, often, using the same type of language that accompanies literal ones. These references repeatedly describe spiritually dead men being spiritually made alive by being first spiritually quickened and then spiritually resurrected from the grave of their sin. This reading plainly outlines how the penitent sinner is raised with the exact same supernatural power that raised Christ at His resurrection, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ [Gr. sunegeiro] Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

 

[WPM]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzoopoieo] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. sunegeiro] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zoopoieo] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

In the new birth, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realisation of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament. Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel. Below is a list of the New Testament scriptures using the Greek word záō (alive). None of them are in reference to someone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive, i.e not living in his own human body. Not one:

This is meaningless and proves nothing. The fact of the matter is that scripture does not say much at all about the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now. So, it's not surprising that you can't find a reference using that word to apply to them in other scripture. For you to act as if you are the ultimate authority on what words can or can't be ascribed to them is, frankly, a joke.

That's how we're born when we come into the world: alive in our own human body, (because that's how Adam was created). And that's what Revelation 20:4 is referring to.

John said he saw the souls of those who were dead. He didn't say he saw souls (in the sense that humans can be called souls). He said he saw the souls of those who were physically dead. And he said he saw them living and reigning with Christ. He didn't say that he saw their bodies.

And Revelation 20:5-6 says that this is the first anastasis (resurrection). The Greek noun used in the New Testament for bodily resurrection from death is ho anástasis: ("The Resurrection"). Without fail, each and every time anástasis is used in the New Testament, it's referring to (the) bodily resurrection from the dead, which is an integral part of the gospel:-

This is not a problem at all for Amils like me who believe that the first resurrection itself is a reference to Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We all spiritually have part in His resurrection when we are saved (Eph 2:4-6, Romans 6, etc.).

Again, speaking of those who fell asleep in Christ, Paul continues, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept. For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:19-22).

Then he says, "But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:19-23).

I'd like to make a separate point about this passage since you brought it up. Paul indicated that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality is Christ's first and next in order are "they who are Christ's at His coming". That's it. What about anyone who would die during a supposed future Millennium and/or during Satan's little season? Where did Paul mention their bodily resurrection. Nowhere. Why not? You know how I would answer that question, but how do you answer it?

This is why Paul also taught, "(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

It's quite obvious though that until our own bodily resurrection, Christians cannot be found in heaven bodily (the way Jesus is, and the way possibly Enoch and Elijah are).

Is anyone making this claim (that Christians can be currently found in heaven bodily)? Maybe some preterists believe this, but most Amils would not claim something like this, so it seems that you are making a straw man argument here.

I suppose these human priests in heaven that Amils talk about, who have died in Christ and who now have no limbs, are going about shaking incense burners?

This was a ridiculous thing to say. What is your understanding of being a priest of Christ? Are you somehow not aware that you and I are priests of Christ right now?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Since we are currently priests, are we supposed to be "going about shaking incense burners"?

IMO Amillennialism rips everything the Lord and His apostles taught us out of context and ignores so many biblical facts.

This is far from the truth, but whatever. Making statements like this without being able to back them up is meaningless.

They have forgotten that God's purpose never changes and God created Adam with a body and a soul. Those who are born sons and daughters of Adam are born with a body and a soul. Adam lost the eternal life God had breathed into him when he became a living soul and as a result began to die physically also. The last Adam bore Adam's (our) sin and died, descended into hades and rose again, and He is the resurrection and the Life.

Mankind has only experienced one death and one resurrection from death, which as the Son of man, the second man and the last Adam, the Son of God brought to us and bought for us. The resurrection takes place in the One who is the resurrection and the life, i.e Jesus.

But Revelation talks about a second death, which no one has yet experienced, we have not yet even experienced the resurrection which Paul teaches will occur when Christ returns. New Jerusalem has come down to earth from God out of heaven and will come down to earth from God out of heaven. There is no separation between the spiritual and the creation in God's revealed purpose, revealed in the Bible. Adam was created with a body and a soul and the Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him. To separate the spiritual from the physical the way Amillennialism does is Dualism.

It appears that you believe in soul sleep since you very strongly come across that you think people are not able to do anything without a body. We're supposed to take you seriously when you come across that you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep? Think again.

 

[Zao is life]

This is not true. Quite the opposite. If you would have actually cared to look at these passages you would have saw the error of your ways. But no! Premils do not do that. They just parrot what they have been taught.

It seems like some Premils have been trying to explain away spiritual resurrection upon salvation for the sole purpose that it exposes their interpretation, location and timing of Revelation 20. This has been easily, ably and repeatedly refuted by Amils on this board. The fact is: multiple NT passages (Luke 2:34, John 8:12, Romans 4:17, Romans 6:3-6, 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, Ephesians 2:1-6, Ephesians 5:14, Colossians 2:10-14, Colossians 3:1-4, I John 3:14) teach that we have experienced spiritual resurrection from spiritual death through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is not true at all. In Christianity resurrection is one thing, and spiritual birth is another. Resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) always only refers to the bodily rising again from the dead. Quickening by the Spirit, spiritual birth and the regeneration of the Spirit uses different words which are not talking about the resurrection. "Spiritual" resurrection exists only in your confused theology brought about by your conflating of these things.

All your posts above make it abundantly clear that the reason why you are and remain so confused about this topic is because you conflate zao with zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō. The words do not mean the same thing, and are not referring to the same thing. So let's go through what you listed above:

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Notice in all the verses I listed in my prevous post that in the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, leads to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

It's not ever talking about either the living (zao) God, or about those who are alive (zao) in human bodies.

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Romans 4:17 is talking about the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the dead. The new birth (gennao by / of the Spirit of God) is what the Greek word zōopoiéō is referring to: zōopoiéō refers to being quickened (made alive by the Spirit), not to zao (being alive in a human body).

Whether born again or not, whenever the word zao is used in reference to humans, it always refers to those who are living in a human body, in every single verse in the New Testament it is found in. All the verses using the word zao which I quoted are either talking about the living God, or about humans who are alive in a human body. None of them are talking about a falsely assumed "spiritual" resurrection. Not one. The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to anyone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive and living in his body.

The word zōopoiéō (quickened by the Spirit) is used in the following verses: || John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

"It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63).

the word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament:

(1) "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He hath [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath [synegeírō] raised us up together *, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The words egeiro and synegeírō refers to bodily resurrection from physical death, in every verse in the New Testament it appears in.

(2) "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5).

Romans 8:23 tells us that we wait in hope (faithful expectation) of the redemption of our bodies from death:

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience.

You see, God created a body for Adam. He isn't just a soul.

Luke 2:34 speaks about the fall and rising again (anastasis) of many - the bodily resurrection. John 8:12 says nothing about "spiritual" resurrection: Jesus being the light of zao (life) does not equate with a falsely assumed and (mis)interpreted "spritual resurrection from death".

Romans 6:3-6 which you auoted is once again referring to this same fact. The passage speaks for itself.

2 Corinthians 1:9 is talking about the bodily (egeiro) raising from the dead. The bodily resurrection. All the verses in the New Testament using the words egeiro and synegeiro which I quoted are referring to the same bodily resurrection - not one is referring to the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit. Ephesians 2:6 is once again referring to being bodily raised (synegeiro) with Christ's bodily resurrection. Ephesians 5:14 is referring to arising (anistemi) from the dead, which is a word which is awals used in reference to the bodily resurrection, not ever to your imagined "spiritual" resurrection.

Ephesians 5:14 (anistemi) is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Not your imagined "spiritual" resurrection (the verse makes it clear). Colossians 2:12 is talking about the bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead and our bodily resurrection (being raised with - synegeiro) Him. Likewise with Colossians 3:1-4 and 1 John 3:14 is not talking about the (bodily) resurrection at all but the fact that we have passed from death to life (zao), which implies being alive in a human body - and John's audience is not the dead, but the living.

So that covers all the verses you listed in your first post above, which, together with the other posts you made after them which is based on your conflating of these words and what they mean and what they are talking about, only betrays your ignorance of the fact that the words zao, zōopoiéō, anastasis etc have different meanings referring to different things (either to bodily resurrection or to regeneration by the Spirit), and the fact that because you conflate the words, your theology built on your conflating of these words referring to different things remains confused. The concept of the "spiritual" resurrection that you believe in is alien to the New Testament, and all scripture. New birth / regeneration by the Spirit is not called (spiritual) "resurrection" in the New Testament.

 

[Zao is life]

This is meaningless and proves nothing. The fact of the matter is that scripture does not say much at all about the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

Well according to you in previous posts of yours, they are priests in heaven now - so according to you they must be walking around swaying incense containers in heaven (or something). You need to specify what your human "priests in heaven" are doing because as you say, such claims are meaningless and prove nothing because scripture does not say much at all about the souls of the dead in Christ.

For you to act as if you are the ultimate authority on what words can or can't be ascribed to them is, frankly, a joke.

The Bible speaks for itself, I don't speak for it the way you do, as though you are the ultimate authority on it.

I listed all the verses talking about the resurrection and none of them are talking about a "spiritual" resurrection. So what you're saying is the New Testament is a joke. Note: The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to any human who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive and living in his body.

zōopoiéō is always used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive again, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

syzōopoiéō is used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ, both spiritually and in reference to the quickening of the mortal body together with Christ's.

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are always and only used in reference to the bodily resurrection.

I listed all the verses. But you say that those verses are a joke (unless you were throwing an ad hominem attack at me, of course).

John said he saw the souls of those who were dead. He didn't say he saw souls (in the sense that humans can be called souls). He said he saw the souls of those who were physically dead. And he said he saw them living and reigning with Christ. He didn't say that he saw their bodies.

And John says they whom he saw were alive (zao) which in the New Testament always refers either to the living God, or to a human being being alive in his own body, every time it's used, without exception. Again, I listed all the verses.

There is a hint of anger in the tone of your reply post, as though you are angry with the facts? (calling facts a joke betrays your anger at the facts). (Or else it's an ad hominem, attacking me for listing all the verses).

This is not a problem at all for Amils like me who believe that the first resurrection itself is a reference to Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We all spiritually have part in His resurrection when we are saved (Eph 2:4-6, Romans 6, etc.).

The only problem for your theory, when you use the above to support what you say about those Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking about, is the fact that kills it - the fact that the New Testament does not use the word zao except to speak about the living God, or humans who are alive in their own bodies, nor does it use the word anastasis except to speak about the bodily resurrection from the dead.

Nor does the New Testament ever use either the word zao or the word anastasis when talking about the quickening of the Spirit.

I'd like to make a separate point about this passage since you brought it up. Paul indicated that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality

1. The only one who is immortal is Christ: " "who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16).

2. The above scripture alone should teach you that those who fall asleep in Christ are clothed with Christ's immortality, who alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16).

3. If our bodies being raised through His bodily resurrection causes us to be immortal then Adam could never have died, because he was able to freely eat of the tree of life (and God had breathed His life into Adam and Adam had become a living soul). Yet Adam died - first spiritual separation from the source of life, then physical death.

Only Christ is immortal. Adam's death was the first death. It came to all mankind. Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is THE Resurrection. HE is the resurrection and the life of Adam.

There will be a second death.

Is anyone making this claim (that Christians can be currently found in heaven bodily)? Maybe some preterists believe this, but most Amils would not claim something like this, so it seems that you are making a straw man argument here.

I never said that you were making that claim, of course, I was merely using the fact to make the point I was making. Thanks for agreeing with me.

This was a ridiculous thing to say. What is your understanding of being a priest of Christ? Are you somehow not aware that you and I are priests of Christ right now?

It's because we are alive in our own human bodies (zao) that we are priests on earth right now. Following the bodily resurrection of all thnose who had died / fallen asleep in Christ, the New Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven, and then we can all be priests on earth.

Only you can explain what priestly functions those who have died / fallen asleep in Christ are performing in heaven prior to the bodily resurrection of all those who died / fell asleep in Christ. It's your theory that they are priests in heaven right now, not mine. I only believe that those who are spiritually in Christ right now through faith in Him will remain in Him when they die physically, because that's what Paul taught us. All I know is that God created Adam with a body and a soul and the separation of His soul from his body through physical death is something God never intended and indeed hates because the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

I don't know how human souls function as priests without having any limbs. That's your forte, apparently.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Is the message of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to his churches a message to the living or the dead? Is it a message to those who are alive (zao) in their human bodies or to those who have died / fallen asleep in Christ? Who is the "us" John is referring to in the above verses?

Since we are currently priests, are we supposed to be "going about shaking incense burners"?

Whatever these "priests in heaven" do or are doing is something only you can explain. I was giving a hypothetical possibility because I can't explain what they are doing. What they are doing and your claim that they are priests in heaven (though they are not alive in their bodies (zao) requires you to specify what these priests in heaven do, not me who does not believe in any priest in heaven except our High Priest - because He alone is alive in His own body after rising from the dead, and He alone is immortal, and He alone sits on a throne in heaven.

This is far from the truth, but whatever. Making statements like this without being able to back them up is meaningless.

What you say when you ignore the support of the scriptures I listed, and the facts of the different meanings of the words describing quickening and bodily resurrection, is meaningless to me.

So what I say when I quote scripture (and support it with scripture) is meaningless to you, and what you say when you ignore the scripture I quote and back what you say up with nothing, is meaningless to me.

Either way these meaningless mutual accusations of meanignlessness (which you initiate when you say things like the above), is meaningless. I know you are capable of producing something of more substance than that.

It appears that you believe in soul sleep since you very strongly come across that you think people are not able to do anything without a body.

You said:

This is meaningless and proves nothing. The fact of the matter is that scripture does not say much at all about the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

So by your own words and your own admission, any debate about what those who have died / fallen asleep in Christ are doing, is meaningless. Why is your reply so full of meaningless statements? First you say that scripture does not say much at all about it, then you claim that they are priests in heaven. You make sense to yourself with this stuff you say, but not to me.

 

[WPM]

All your posts above make it abundantly clear that the reason why you are and remain so confused about this topic is because you conflate zao with zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō. The words do not mean the same thing, and are not referring to the same thing. So let's go through what you listed above:

Romans 4:17 is talking about the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the dead. The new birth (gennao by / of the Spirit of God) is what the Greek word zōopoiéō is referring to: zōopoiéō refers to being quickened (made alive by the Spirit), not to zao (being alive in a human body).

Whether born again or not, whenever the word zao is used in reference to humans, it always refers to those who are living in a human body, in every single verse in the New Testament it is found in. All the verses using the word zao which I quoted are either talking about the living God, or about humans who are alive in a human body. None of them are talking about a falsely assumed "spiritual" resurrection. Not one. The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to anyone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive and living in his body.

The word zōopoiéō (quickened by the Spirit) is used in the following verses: || John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

"It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63).

the word syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used twice in the New Testament:

(1) "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He hath [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath [synegeírō] raised us up together *, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The words egeiro and synegeírō refers to bodily resurrection from physical death, in every verse in the New Testament it appears in.

(2) "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit, and rose again from the dead, bodily:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5).

Romans 8:23 tells us that we wait in hope (faithful expectation) of the redemption of our bodies from death:

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience.

You see, God created a body for Adam. He isn't just a soul.

Luke 2:34 speaks about the fall and rising again (anastasis) of many - the bodily resurrection. John 8:12 says nothing about "spiritual" resurrection: Jesus being the light of zao (life) does not equate with a falsely assumed and (mis)interpreted "spritual resurrection from death".

Romans 6:3-6 which you auoted is once again referring to this same fact. The passage speaks for itself.

2 Corinthians 1:9 is talking about the bodily (egeiro) raising from the dead. The bodily resurrection. All the verses in the New Testament using the words egeiro and synegeiro which I quoted are referring to the same bodily resurrection - not one is referring to the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit. Ephesians 2:6 is once again referring to being bodily raised (synegeiro) with Christ's bodily resurrection. Ephesians 5:14 is referring to arising (anistemi) from the dead, which is a word which is awals used in reference to the bodily resurrection, not ever to your imagined "spiritual" resurrection.

Ephesians 5:14 (anistemi) is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Not your imagined "spiritual" resurrection (the verse makes it clear). Colossians 2:12 is talking about the bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead and our bodily resurrection (being raised with - synegeiro) Him. Likewise with Colossians 3:1-4 and 1 John 3:14 is not talking about the (bodily) resurrection at all but the fact that we have passed from death to life (zao), which implies being alive in a human body - and John's audience is not the dead, but the living.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Notice in all the verses I listed in my prevous post that in the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, leads to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection, and it is not ever talking about either the living (zao) God, or about those who are alive (zao) in human bodies.

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​

So that covers all the verses you listed in your first post above, which, together with the other posts you made after them which is based on your conflation of these words, only betrays your ignorance of the fact that the words zao, zōopoiéō, anastasis etc have different meanings referring to different things (either to bodily resurrection or to regeneration by the Spirit), and the fact that because you conflate the words, your theology built on your conflating of these words referring to different things remains confused. The concept of the "spiritual" resurrection that you believe in is alien to the New Testament, and all scripture. New birth / regeneration by the Spirit is not called (spiritual) "resurrection" in the New Testament.

In Christianity resurrection is one thing, and spiritual birth is another. Resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) always only refers to the bodily rising again from the dead. Quickening by the Spirit, spiritual birth and the regeneration of the Spirit uses different words which are not talking about the resurrection. "Spiritual" resurrection exists only in your confused theology brought about by your conflating of these things.

How is a spiritually dead person raised from their spiritual grave and brought unto spiritual life?

 

[Zao is life]

How is a spiritually dead person raised from their spiritual grave and brought unto spiritual life?

Those who are spiritually dead were born with a body and a soul, and after they have been quickened (zōopoiéō) by the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, it will lead to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

There is no spiritual grave for mankind as though you were alive spiritually before you were born and died and got buried and were then born with a body and a soul. What on earth or under the earth are you talking about?

"spiritrual graves"?. No such thing in the New Testament. The quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit occurs when we are born (gennao) of the Spirit - after being born with a body and a soul. We did not die spiritually at any time. Only Adam did. We, the sons of Adam, were never alive spirtiually until we were born spiritually.

 

[WPM]

This is not true at all. In Christianity resurrection is one thing, and spiritual birth is another. Resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) always only refers to the bodily rising again from the dead. Quickening by the Spirit, spiritual birth and the regeneration of the Spirit uses different words which are not talking about the resurrection. "Spiritual" resurrection exists only in your confused theology brought about by your conflating of these things.

The way by which spiritually dead people are raised from their spiritual grave and brought unto spiritual life is spiritual resurrection. Hello! That is repeatedly taught throughout the NT. This is obviously spiritual language pertaining to a spiritual experience. It this supernatural act of spiritual resurrection from spiritual death that produces a spiritual birth. But it is the spiritual resurrection of a human that brings us to newness of life.

All your posts above make it abundantly clear that the reason why you are and remain so confused about this topic is because you conflate zao with zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō. The words do not mean the same thing, and are not referring to the same thing. So let's go through what you listed above:

• The Greek word zao simply means: to live or be alive.
• The Greek word zōopoieō means to cause to live, make alive, give life and by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate. The very fact that someone needs to be “quickened” is because they are actually dead. The word means to bring to life. It describes stimulate to renewed activity.
• The Greek word suzōopoieō means: to quicken together with. The sense is: to resuscitate in conjunction with. It involves giving life to.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Notice in all the verses I listed in my prevous post that in the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, leads to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

It's not ever talking about either the living (zao) God, or about those who are alive (zao) in human bodies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

His quickening voice produces both spiritual and physical life. It resurrects men from both a spiritual and physical grave. This is a very consistent truth in Scripture. You wrongly limit resurrect alone to the physical. The many passages above and attached arguments forbid you thesis.

Romans 4:17 is talking about the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the dead. The new birth (gennao by / of the Spirit of God) is what the Greek word zōopoiéō is referring to: zōopoiéō refers to being quickened (made alive by the Spirit), not to zao (being alive in a human body).

Your whole premise is completely wrong, therefore, everything you build upon that thereafter is built upon sand. This is not objective analyze but rather bias study to prove the error of Premil. Whatever way you examine Premil it does not stand up to simple scrutiny. Greek words are twisted here in order to facilitate Premil. Basically, whatever needs to be done to allow Premil will be done. This is wrong and disingenuous and the objective reader should notice that.

Whether born again or not, whenever the word zao is used in reference to humans, it always refers to those who are living in a human body, in every single verse in the New Testament it is found in. All the verses using the word zao which I quoted are either talking about the living God, or about humans who are alive in a human body. None of them are talking about a falsely assumed "spiritual" resurrection. Not one. The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to anyone who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive and living in his body.

This is a strawman argument. Spiritual life (záō) is what is produced after someone has been raised from their spiritual grave. Hello!

In case you are not aware: the dead cannot hear. They cannot see. They cannot understand. They cannot move. They cannot respond. Would you agree? You can stick a pin into a dead man and he will not react. You can scream into a dead man’s ears and he will not respond. That is because he is dead. This applies both to the natural and the spiritual.

Please be aware, before someone encounters Christ, they are literally in a spiritual grave. They are dead. They cannot hear. They cannot see. They cannot understand. They cannot move. They cannot respond.

• The Bible says that prior to salvation man is a spiritual corpse that is “dead in … sins” (Ezekiel 37, Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13).
• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13, 15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “deaf” ((Psalm 58:4; Ezekiel 12:2; Matthew 13:13, 15-16).

1. The spiritual corpse must first be quickened by the supernatural voice of God (zōopoieō or suzōopoieō).
2. This causes a spiritual resurrection (egeiro or anastasis)
3. This then brings spiritual life to the sinner (zao).

You reject all this because it interferes in your eschatological beliefs.

 

[Zao is life]

The way by which spiritually dead people are raised from their spiritual grave and brought unto spiritual life is spiritual resurrection. Hello! That is repeatedly taught throughout the NT. This is obviously spiritual language pertaining to a spiritual experience. It this supernatural act of spiritual resurrection from spiritual death that produces a spiritual birth. But it is the spiritual resurrection of a human that brings us to newness of life.

• The Greek word zao simply means: to live or be alive.
• The Greek word zōopoieō means to cause to live, make alive, give life and by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate. The very fact that someone needs to be “quickened” is because they are actually dead. The word means to bring to life. It describes stimulate to renewed activity.
• The Greek word suzōopoieō means: to quicken together with. The sense is: to resuscitate in conjunction with. It involves giving life to.

His quickening voice produces both spiritual and physical life. It resurrects men from both a spiritual and physical grave. This is a very consistent truth in Scripture. You wrongly limit resurrect alone to the physical. The many passages above and attached arguments forbid you thesis.



Your whole premise is completely wrong, therefore, everything you build upon that thereafter is built upon sand. This is not objective analyze but rather bias study to prove the error of Premil. Whatever way you examine Premil it does not stand up to simple scrutiny. Greek words are twisted here in order to facilitate Premil. Basically, whatever needs to be done to allow Premil will be done. This is wrong and disingenuous and the objective reader should notice that.



This is a strawman argument. Spiritual life (záō) is what is produced after someone has been raised from their spiritual grave. Hello!

In case you are not aware: the dead cannot hear. They cannot see. They cannot understand. They cannot move. They cannot respond. Would you agree? You can stick a pin into a dead man and he will not react. You can scream into a dead man’s ears and he will not respond. That is because he is dead. This applies both to the natural and the spiritual.

Please be aware, before someone encounters Christ, they are literally in a spiritual grave. They are dead. They cannot hear. They cannot see. They cannot understand. They cannot move. They cannot respond.

• The Bible says that prior to salvation man is a spiritual corpse that is “dead in … sins” (Ezekiel 37, Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13).
• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13, 15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “deaf” ((Psalm 58:4; Ezekiel 12:2; Matthew 13:13, 15-16).

1. The spiritual corpse must first be quickened by the supernatural voice of God (zōopoieō or suzōopoieō).
2. This causes a spiritual resurrection (egeiro or anastasis)
3. This then brings spiritual life to the sinner (zao).

You reject all this because it interferes in your eschatological beliefs.

I reject your misinterpretation of it because I know it's not scriptural. The quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit occurs when we are born (gennao) of the Spirit - after being born with a body and a soul. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We did not die spiritually at any time. Only Adam did. We, the sons of Adam, were never alive spiritually until we were born spiritually, so no one can ever be "resurrected from the spiritual grave from spiritual death" as your misinterpretation of the scriptures has it.

Those who are spiritually dead were born with a body and a soul, and after they have been quickened (zōopoiéō) by the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, it will lead to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

When we were born into the world we were born of the flesh. There was no spiritual grave for mankind, as though you were alive spiritually before you died spiritually, and got buried spiritually. It's not biblical and it's not Christian to believe such a theology. No one can die before he was even born - whether physically or spiritually.

Resurrection from death is resurrection from just that - death, and this is why in every verse in the New Testament where the words for resurrection appears, it's unambiguously talking about a bodily resurrection, and the verses all use the words anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō and synegeiro; and every verse which talks about the quickening of the Spirit uses different words: they all use the words zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō and anagennao and paliggenesia, which refers to the regeneration of the Spirit.

None of them even use the word zao, which always speaks either about the living (zao) God or about human beings being alive (zao) in their own bodies.
​

I really don't understand how anyone can believe the sons of Adam were ever alive spiritually before they were even born spiritually, so that they could die spiritually and in your words be "resurrected from spiritual graves". It's just nonsense (i.e, makes no sense at all). Neither is it biblical. Hence, not real Christian theology.

 

[WPM]

I reject your misinterpretation of it because I know it's not scriptural. The quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit occurs when we are born (gennao) of the Spirit - after being born with a body and a soul. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We did not die spiritually at any time. Only Adam did. We, the sons of Adam, were never alive spiritually until we were born spiritually, so no one can ever be "resurrected from the spiritual grave from spiritual death" as your misinterpretation of the scriptures has it.

Those who are spiritually dead were born with a body and a soul, and after they have been quickened (zōopoiéō) by the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, it will lead to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

When we were born into the world we were born of the flesh. There was no spiritual grave for mankind, as though you were alive spiritually before you died spiritually, and got buried spiritually. It's not biblical and it's not Christian to believe such a theology. No one can die before he was even born - whether physically or spiritually.

Resurrection from death is resurrection from just that - death, and this is why in every verse in the New Testament where the words for resurrection appears, it's unambiguously talking about a bodily resurrection, and the verses all use the words anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō and synegeiro; and every verse which talks about the quickening of the Spirit uses different words: they all use the words zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō and anagennao and paliggenesia, which refers to the regeneration of the Spirit.

None of them even use the word zao, which always speaks either about the living (zao) God or about human beings being alive (zao) in their own bodies.
​

I really don't understand how anyone can believe the sons of Adam were ever alive spiritually before they were even born spiritually, so that they could die spiritually and in your words be "resurrected from spiritual graves". It's just nonsense (i.e, makes no sense at all). Neither is it biblical. Hence, not real Christian theology.

Are we spiritually dead or alive before salvation?

The answer of course is “dead.” We are all “dead in sin” before conversion as a result of the Fall. Therefore, we all automatically inherit that fallen nature through our federal head Adam by our first birth. In order to shift from this awful state of death to life we must first hear the quickening or life-giving voice of the Lord and then experience the joy of spiritual resurrection. By being raised from the grave of sin and debauchery we experience newness of life (or are born from above). It is the resurrection of the spirit into a state of communion with God that causes the new birth. When resurrected our spirits are brought from death to life, this causes a new birth in our being. A human being consists of body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that is dead unto God before salvation that is (1) quickened (2) resurrected from its death that (3) begets life and therefore a new nature or the spiritual man.

For someone to move from death unto life requires resurrection (whether natural or spiritual). The human being’s spirit is dead toward the things of God. before conversion. Man from the Fall has been imprisoned in darkness and the grave. He needs God’s help to release him. That part of him that fell in the Fall and which was in perfect communion with God was turned around in the opposite direction to be at total enmity with Him. Without a resurrection the spiritual man within us remains at total variance to God. That spirit needs quickened and brought back into union and communion with God. This only occurs through spiritual resurrection.

Whilst the ungodly have a spirit, prior to salvation, it is separated from God and dead toward the things of God. The new birth is essentially the result of the restoring of the relationship between our spirits and God’s through God’s quickening and resurrection power. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us upon salvation and enables us to enter into fellowship with God, which was broken through the Fall. When Scripture says we were “dead in sin” it means we were spiritually dead or dead in a spiritual sense. No one would surely argue that the concepts of being born and of being resurrected whilst being different spiritual metaphors both relate to conversion and both speak of what salvation entails.

The new birth (or second birth) represents the creation of an altogether new life in the individual, which wasn’t hitherto there. The element within us that prevented that life from being realized was a spirit that was at enmity to God through the Fall. Before the new birth can be experienced, a spiritual resurrection must sovereignly be activated by the Lord. Man needs divine intervention to raise him from his awful spiritual condition and eternal death (the second death). The means by which God perfects this is by the first resurrection, which brings life. It is the resurrection of the spirit that causes the new birth. We are raised out of our spiritual death. Regeneration involves a spiritual resurrection which causes a spiritual new birth. That is undeniable from studying Scripture.

 

[WPM]

We did not die spiritually at any time. Only Adam did. We, the sons of Adam, were never alive spiritually until we were born spiritually, so no one can ever be "resurrected from the spiritual grave from spiritual death" as your misinterpretation of the scriptures has it.

Those who are spiritually dead were born with a body and a soul, and after they have been quickened (zōopoiéō) by the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening Christ experienced by the same Spirit, it will lead to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

When we were born into the world we were born of the flesh. There was no spiritual grave for mankind, as though you were alive spiritually before you died spiritually, and got buried spiritually. It's not biblical and it's not Christian to believe such a theology. No one can die before he was even born - whether physically or spiritually.​

The first death that man experienced in the Garden after Adam ate of the fruit and consequently sinned was spiritual death. God said to Adam, in Genesis 2:17, “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Whilst we know from Scripture that Adam ate of that forbidden fruit, we equally know that he didn't physically die on that same day. This warning wasn’t therefore just talking about bodily death. In fact, Genesis 5:5 tells us, “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.” It couldn’t also have been his soul that would die otherwise life would immediately become extinct. The soulish man lived on. This must have been referring to a spiritual death which would separate man from that perfect communion he enjoyed with God. If spiritual death was the first death man experienced, the next death that he experienced, which was a direct result of the first, was physical death. The Fall left mankind in a hopeless ruined state facing a certain two-fold death. Left to his own devices, man was destined for “the Lake of Fire” and eternal spiritual and physical death.

The Bible refutes your whole thesis above, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). When Adam fell his desires automatically changed from being God-ward to being self-ward. Natural man with Adam’s blood is born with that same corrupt aspiration. He is a rebel. In this, he will always go the way of sin. That is his natural inclination. This had to be corrected. That is why Christ (the second Adam) came. In salvation, Christ restores that desire for God and the things of God.

To rescue man from his inevitable doom, he needed God in His sovereign grace to intervene on his behalf.

Ephesians 2:1 reveals how all men “in Adam” are “dead in trespasses and sins.” Colossians 2:13 personalizes this truth to the individual, saying, “you, being dead in your sins.”

What man in general therefore required was divine intervention, which would raise him from the wretched repercussions of dual death and correct his inevitable deserved double-sentence. Man inherited that awful sinful nature and is consequently birthed in spiritual death. Moreover, it is this corrupt nature that ultimately separates man from God.

Man – in all generations – inherited Adam’s awful sinful nature, which ultimately separates man from a holy God. The first resurrection therefore that man needed was a spiritual resurrection to expiate the awful spiritual death sentence that he inherits. The second resurrection he required was a physical resurrection to (redeem or) replace the corruptible physical tabernacle that he inhabited. 2 Corinthians 5:14 declares, “if one died for all, then were all dead.” Our Dispensational brethren would do well to consider this; because if all were dead in sin, then they could similarly only be revived in Christ. Romans 7:6 confirms that we were spiritual destitute and dead prior to salvation. Paul testifies of our hopeless pre-conversion state: “that being dead wherein we were held.”

Whilst the first death that man enters into by natural birth is spiritual death, the first death that sees its full realization in all men is physical death. The germ of spiritual death – which is eternal in the Christ-rejecter – is found in every man born since Adam, although it doesn’t see its final sentence in this scene of time. The continuation of spiritual death in an unrepentant sinner’s life, whilst beginning before physical death, doesn’t find its ultimate recompense until after natural death, at the final judgment. It is only then that the unregenerate man enters into the awful realization of the penalty of spiritual death – eternal punishment and separation from a holy God – when he is cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

It is interesting that Revelation 20 or no other book of the Bible alludes to the ‘second resurrection' or the ‘first death' in such terms. The reason is simple. Every single human (outside of the believers that will be alive and waiting for Christ at His Second Advent) will take part in both. The “first resurrection” and the “second death” are different. Only the righteous experience the “first resurrection” and only the wicked experience the “second death” That’s why much is made of them in Revelation 20. We also no that Revelation beautifully correlates with the rest of Scripture.

Paul says, “she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth” (1 Timothy 5:6). It is obvious from this reading that Paul is not speaking of physical death here, but rather of spiritual death. Manifestly, Paul is referring to the woman that still possesses natural life, although she is expressly devoid of spiritual life. Her indulgence in the desires of the flesh separates her from communion with the living God. Christ must therefore first raise her from her sin before she can ever enter into the joy of sins forgiven and therefore true spiritual life. We see the exact same idea presented in Revelation 3:1 where Christ speaks to the Church of Sardis, “thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.” Again, we are unquestionably dealing a situation of physical life but spiritual death.

When Christ was calling the disciples to give up all and follow Him, one disciple responded, “suffer me first to go and bury my father (Matthew 8:21). Jesus replied unto him, “let the dead bury their dead.” Or paraphrased, ‘let the spiritually dead bury their physical dead’.

Jesus advances the parable of the Prodigal in Luke 15:21-24, and demonstrates how the Son came home in humble petition, crying, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.” The father then put a robe upon him “and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.” Then, after killing the “fatted calf” the father testifies, “this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.” Once more, this is plainly referring to the spiritual quickening of the son (who was spiritually dead) and his entering into a position of new life within the elect family. Evidently it can’t be talking about physical life as he was very much alive in his sin and rebellion in the far country.

The word rendered “alive” in this verse is the Greek word anzaō, which is the aorist active indicative of the verb ‘to live’. It is used only 5 times in the New Testament – the passage in view, Romans 14:9, Revelation 2:8 and Revelation 13:14 and significantly Revelation 20:4 – when describing the redeemed that “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Romans 6:23 succinctly tells us: “For the wages of sin is death.”

 

[Zao is life]

Are we spiritually dead or alive before salvation?

Tell me when you died spiritually. Before you were even born spiritually? Does anyone have record of the day/date/time?

Only Adam died spiritually. The sons of Adam do not have spiritual life when we are born into the world. That's what the words "spiritually dead" mean. They simply mean no spiritual life.

When we speak about being spiritually dead it's only another way of saying we are born without spiritual life.

You have stretched the meaning of passing FROM (spiritual) death, i.e no spiritual life TO (spiritual) life, and incorporated into sound biblical theology an unsound biblical theology i.e a prior (spiritual) life and a death from this prior spiritual life (which you have imagined must have occurred before you were born of the Spirit), so that in your imagination produced by your misinterpretation of these scriptures, you were spiritually "resurrected" from spiritual death even before you were born spiritually.

There's no reincarnation in the Bible. And the theology you keep repeating makes nonsense of the biblical revelation.

 

[WPM]

Tell me when you died spiritually. Before you were even born spiritually? Does anyone have record of the day/date/time?

Only Adam died spiritually. The sons of Adam do not have spiritual life when we are born into the world. That's what the words "spiritually dead" mean. They simply mean no spiritual life.

When we speak about being spiritually dead it's only another way of saying we are born without spiritual life.

You have stretched the meaning of passing FROM (spiritual) death, i.e no spiritual life TO (spiritual) life, and incorporated into sound biblical theology an unsound biblical theology i.e a prior (spiritual) life and a death from this prior spiritual life (which you have imagined must have occurred before you were born of the Spirit), so that in your imagination produced by your misinterpretation of these scriptures, you were spiritually "resurrected" from spiritual death even before you were born spiritually.

There's no reincarnation in the Bible. And the theology you keep repeating makes nonsense of the biblical revelation.

My last post refutes your claims!

 

[Zao is life]

My last post refutes your claims!

But you can't answer my reply to your last post, which refutes your "refute". That's why you did not even try.

 

[WPM]

But you can't answer my reply to your last post, which refutes your "refute". That's why you did not even try.

Not true. It is the Scriptures that I posted in that post that exposes and demolishes your whole thesis not my words. You know it! That is why you carefully duck around every single verse in that post that forbids your claims. You have to!

 

[Zao is life]

Not true. It is the Scriptures that I posted in that post that exposes and demolishes your whole thesis not my words. You know it! That is why you carefully duck around every single verse in that post that forbids your claims. You have to!

Nope. It's you who refuses to acknowledge the scriptures I listed in my first post in this thread, the fact that not one of the words used to talk about resurrection is talking about anything but bodily resurrection from physical death in the very context of each verse, and the fact that the same goes for the word zao - not one is referring to anything except humans being alive in their own bodies, except for the ones that are talking about the living (zao) God.

Nor can you tell me or explain how a person can die before he's even born - whether physically or spiritually, therefore you won't answer the fact that saying that a person is dead spiritually is the same as saying he is without spiritual life.

If we are born without spiritual life then saying we are spiritually dead means just that - we have no spiritual life when we are born and until someone is born of the Spirit this will remain the case - he will remain spiritually "dead".

Nor can you explain away the fact that resurrection from death can only be after death, which can only be after birth, and nor can you explain away the fact that this is exactly why the context of each and every New Testament verse using any of the words for resurrection is talking about the bodily resurrection.

You just keep proving that you have completely conflated the quickening of the Spirit with the resurrection of the dead. That's why you won't answer the actual verses I listed in my first post in this thread.