The gods of amil.

[WPM]

The word zōopoiéō (quickened by the Spirit) is used in the following verses: || John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18.

Why do sinners need quickened and resurrected? Because they are dead. They are in a spiritual grave.

• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation one is a spiritual corpse that is “dead in … sins” (Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation one is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13 & 2 Corinthians 4:4)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation one is spiritually “deaf” (Ezekiel 12:2 & Matthew 13:13)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation we are “by nature a child of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that “they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Corinthians 2:14)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation one is a spiritual “prisoner” of Satan (Isaiah 14:17, 42:6 & 61:1)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation one is bound in “chains” of sin (Psalm 68:6, 107:8-16 and Isaiah 61:1)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says “none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:10)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says there is “none righteous” (Romans 3:10)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says there is “none that understandeth” (Romans 3:10)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says there is “none that doeth good” (Romans 3:10)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation the unregenerate does not hear the words of Christ (John 8:43-44)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to come to Christ (John 6:44)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to please God (Romans 8:8)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation you were “alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Col 1:21).
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation you (“the old man”) were “corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (Eph 4:22).
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation you were ‘vain in your imaginations, and your foolish heart was darkened’ (Romans 1:21).
• Do you believe what the Bible says that prior to salvation you were ‘walking in the vanity of your mind, Having your understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that was in you, because of the blindness of your heart” (Ephesians 4:17-19)?
• Do you believe outside of Christ what the Bible says “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)?
• Do you believe what the Bible says that outside of Christ “I know nothing by myself” (1 Corinthians 4:4)?

 

[WPM]

* The words egeiro and synegeírō refers to bodily resurrection from physical death, in every verse in the New Testament it appears in.

No. These words refer to dual resurrection in the NT - spiritual and physical.

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience.

You see, God created a body for Adam. He isn't just a soul.

We all agree on a future physical resurrection. What you are way off base on is denying a spiritual resurrection that qualifies us for physical resurrection. Without that would is left in the grave of their sin. You have ducked around multiple passages that teach that.

Luke 2:34 speaks about the fall and rising again (anastasis) of many - the bodily resurrection. John 8:12 says nothing about "spiritual" resurrection: Jesus being the light of zao (life) does not equate with a falsely assumed and (mis)interpreted "spritual resurrection from death".

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again [Gr. anastasis] (or resurrecting) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

This is talking about the earthly assignment of Jesus; this is a outline of His spiritual mission. This also sums up the result of man’s response to Christ when the truth is presented. Men either reject Him in life and face the awful spiritual consequences of that or they accept Him and are raised from the grave of their sin into newness of life. This reminds us that there is no neutrality when it came to Jesus.

Albert Barnes says this: “Many of the poor and humble, that were willing to receive him, would obtain pardon of sin and peace - would ‘rise’ from their sins and sorrows here, and finally ascend to eternal life.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

Romans 6:3-6 which you auoted is once again referring to this same fact. The passage speaks for itself.

Why? Because you say? I don't think so! This is a total cop-out. This shows: you cannot accept the obvious clear teaching of the sacred text. It is that that demolishes your claims. It is sufficient to expose error.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

I don’t think anyone with the slightest spiritual insight would suggest that this passage is referring to a believer’s physical death and physical resurrection. Whilst there is no doubt it refers to Christ’s physical death, burial and resurrection, it is plain from the text that we are viewing figurative language relating to the believer, used to describe the supernatural spiritual change that occurs to a Christian upon salvation. That experience is carefully (and deliberately) portrayed as an identification with Christ. He demonstrates that he is speaking of an experience in this life that lifts a man from the reality of spiritual death into spiritual life. The means by which this is secured is spiritual resurrection.

Basically: spiritual resurrection from spiritual death produces spiritual life.

2 Corinthians 1:9 is talking about the bodily (egeiro) raising from the dead. The bodily resurrection. All the verses in the New Testament using the words egeiro and synegeiro which I quoted are referring to the same bodily resurrection - not one is referring to the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit.

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth [Gr. egeiro] the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

Paul goes on then to emphasize the victorious ongoing hope that the risen saints have through salvation, regardless of what is arrayed against them. He is reminding the believer of the security that exists “in Christ.” Whilst justification is an act (when we are spiritually redeemed) and glorification also an act (when we are physically redeemed), sanctification is a process of making us more like Christ. In all three experiences Christ holds a firm grip upon His people. He looks after them, and sustains them along the way. Christ therefore has “delivered,” (past tense) “doth deliver” (currently) and “will yet deliver” (future tense).

So the allusion to “God which raiseth the dead” is talking in a broad sense about the day of salvation (the here-and-now). It describes the ongoing spiritual process secured through Christ’s glorious resurrection from the dead. For someone to move from death and the grave (in either the natural or the spiritual) to life (natural or spiritual) requires resurrection.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

 

[Zao is life]

Why do sinners need quickened and resurrected? Because they are dead. They are in a spiritual grave.

Pass us the scriptures that teach us when we died spiritually and where we were spiritually buried, will you?

Then I'll pass you the scripture where Jesus says you are neither physically alive until you are born of the flesh, nor spiritually alive until you are born of the Spirit.

Do you believe the scripture? Do you believe Jesus?

Because if you do, you won't keep equating spiritual death, i.e being born with no spiritual life, with your imagined "spiritual grave" that we in accordance with your theory need to come out of by being spiritually "resurrected".

Do you even believe in a bodily resurrection? How does this come about do you think? Will it come about before of after someone who was born physically but with no spiritual life in him (i.e spiritually dead) has been spiritually born?

Are you a believer in the bodily resurrection from the dead?

Do you believe the scriptures which talk about the resurrection? If so, why don't you read each and every verse that talks about the resurrection and rising from the dead and see if you can come up with one that isn't talking about the bodily resurrection, but rather about your imagined spiritual resurrection from your imagined "spiritual grave"?

 

[WPM]

Ephesians 2:6 is once again referring to being bodily raised (synegeiro) with Christ's bodily resurrection.

This is wrong, and you know it! This is talking about the here-and-now. It is talking about the current state of believers in Christ. This is exactly what Premil produces. It causes Premils to butcher large plain straightforward passages of Scripture.

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzoopoieo] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. sunegeiro] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

The quickening of the spiritually dead life results in a consequential spiritual resurrection. Resurrection cannot plainly occur unless God in His providence reaches down in supernatural quickening power and imputes spiritual life into a spiritually dead man.

The Lord is not simply equating the spiritual condition of a man outside of salvation to the physically dead; he is speaking of an actual real experiential condition of death than is common to all unregenerate men. It is a spiritual reality. It doesn’t merely say ‘we were similar to the dead in sins’, no; it says “we were dead in sins.” This death is obviously not physical as it is speaking of the alive. It is spiritual. For a man to be brought from death to life in the natural requires resurrection, likewise, to be brought from death to life in the spiritual requires resurrection. This occurs by the dead sinner being spiritually quickened and then spiritually raised.

Ephesians 5:14 is referring to arising (anistemi) from the dead, which is a word which is awals used in reference to the bodily resurrection, not ever to your imagined "spiritual" resurrection.

Ephesians 5:14 (anistemi) is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Not your imagined "spiritual" resurrection (the verse makes it clear).

Not true! The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake [Gr. egeiro] thou that sleepest, and arise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:12 is talking about the bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead and our bodily resurrection (being raised with - synegeiro) Him.

Romans 6:4 says, “we are buried with him by baptism into death.”

Colossians 2:12 agrees, saying, we are “Buried with him in baptism.”

Baptism clearly relates to our burial with Christ; resurrection relates to our rising into newness of life with Him. Paul uses these metaphors to depict the nature and significance of salvation. He likens salvation to a death, burial and resurrection. In spiritual baptism one enters into the death and burial of Christ; in spiritual resurrection one enters into the resurrection, life and victory of Christ. Baptism therefore refers to the first aspect of salvation which is death and burial with Christ; this burial being a spiritual experience in this life. The resurrection element of salvation immediately follows, being part of the one overall experience. It lifts a man out of his hopeless state into the resurrection life.

Whilst all men are dead in their sin prior to conversion, not all men realise it. Baptism relates to the realisation that one is dead. It is admitting our hopeless spiritual state before God. Notwithstanding, it is important to emphasis that salvation is more than a death and burial, it is also a resurrection into a new life – a regenerated life. Resurrection refers to a rising with Christ; this resurrection also being a spiritual experience in this life. Our spiritual resurrection is inextricably linked to Christ’s triumphant physical resurrection. At conversion, the Christian dies to the desires, control and governance of the “old man” or the old nature, and enters into the new man – Christ. He loses all rights to self-rule and yields to the impulses and authority of the Holy Spirit, who’s office it is to conform us to the image of Christ. Paul describes the method by which we are brought from this awful state of spiritual death into the glory of spiritual life, which is spiritual resurrection.

Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Man is spiritually dead prior to conversion; he must therefore be spiritually raised. The spiritual life that we enter into in this life by the resurrection power of Christ will be the very power that brings us into the final resurrection state.

 

[WPM]

Likewise with Colossians 3:1-4 and 1 John 3:14 is not talking about the (bodily) resurrection at all but the fact that we have passed from death to life (zao), which implies being alive in a human body - and John's audience is not the dead, but the living.

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ [Gr. sunegeiro] Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

The resurrection mentioned in this reading must of necessity precede the physical resurrection at Christ’s Coming. The physical resurrection is still future, whereas the spiritual resurrection is depicted here as current and ongoing. The coming of Christ, and the physical resurrection that accompanies it, is anticipated in this reading as a future event – the time when we shall yet “appear with him in glory.” Those that are described here as being presently “risen with Christ” enter into the resurrection life long before physical resurrection day (the day that the Premillennialists argue witnesses the first resurrection). Whilst there is no actual reference in the Bible to “a second resurrection,” commentators from all the respective eschatological camps concede that there is (at very least) a second resurrection, albeit they differ greatly on its nature, timing and who it applies to.

I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realization of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

So that covers all the verses you listed in your first post above, which, together with the other posts you made after them which is based on your conflating of these words and what they mean and what they are talking about, only betrays your ignorance of the fact that the words zao, zōopoiéō, anastasis etc have different meanings referring to different things (either to bodily resurrection or to regeneration by the Spirit), and the fact that because you conflate the words, your theology built on your conflating of these words referring to different things remains confused. The concept of the "spiritual" resurrection that you believe in is alien to the New Testament, and all scripture. New birth / regeneration by the Spirit is not called (spiritual) "resurrection" in the New Testament.

Your short, swift and evasive dismissals of the inspired text prove nothing part from the fact you have a major issue with God's Word. Each text demolishes your thesis.

 

[WPM]

Do you believe the scripture? Do you believe Jesus? ...

Do you even believe in a bodily resurrection? ...

Are you a believer in the bodily resurrection from the dead?

Do you believe the scriptures which talk about the resurrection?

Premil engagement typically goes like this: Phase 1 is avoidance of the obvious. Phase 2 is insults and ad-hominem. Phase 3 is running. That is because they have no answer for the truth. This is when Amils know the battle is won!

 

[Zao is life]

No. These words refer to dual resurrection in the NT - spiritual and physical.

Here, once again, are all the New Testament verses using the words anástasis; égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō.

1. Please read them all and tell me which ones are not referring to the bodily resurrection from the dead; and

2. If all of them are referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead, then please produce a verse or verses where the words are not referring to the bodily resurrection, but rather to your imagined spiritual "resurrection" from your imagined "spiritual grave":

anástasis:

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

 

[WPM]

Here, once again, are all the New Testament verses using the words anástasis; égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō.

1. Please read them all and tell me which ones are not referring to the bodily resurrection from the dead; and

2. If all of them are referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead, then please produce a verse or verses where the words are not referring to the bodily resurrection, but rather to your imagined spiritual "resurrection" from your imagined "spiritual grave":

anástasis:

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

More avoidance! Address the rebuttals instead of skipping around them. Just because you state something doesn't mean it negates Scripture. Scripture negates your teaching.

 

[Zao is life]

Premil engagement typically goes like this: Phase 1 is avoidance of the obvious. Phase 2 is insults and ad-hominem. Phase 3 is running. That is because they have no answer for the truth. This is when Amils know the battle is won!

I'm glad you realize this because it's you who was producing all of the above. You will not answer any of my questions, then list a whole long list of scriptures asking me if I believe them.

Now you cry and say I want to know if you believe the scriptures.

It's because you know you have no answers. You cannot address the facts I produced.

So please tell me, when did you die spiritually, and where was your spiritual grave? I'd like to know so that I can at least go and look at it to have some evidence that you were resurrected from your spiritual grave before you were even born spiritually.

 

[Zao is life]

More avoidance! Address the rebuttals instead of skipping around them. Just because you state something doesn't mean it negates Scripture. Scripture negates your teaching.

More avoidance!

You won't address any rebuttals. Address the rebuttals instead of skipping around them please.

You first.But you have already proved that you won't. You have made it obvious that you cannot.

 

[WPM]

I'm glad you realize this because it's you who was producing all of the above. You will not answer any of my questions, then list a whole long list of scriptures asking me if I believe them.

Now you cry and say I want to know if you believe the scriptures.

It's because you know you have no answers. You cannot address the facts I produced.

So please tell me, when did you die spiritually, and where was your spiritual grave? I'd like to know so that I can at least go and look at it to have some evidence that you were resurrected from your spiritual grave before you were even born spiritually.

Lies! The reader can see who is avoiding what above. It matters little what you think.

See my detailed responses above. Your back is clearly against the wall. All you are left with is insults and pettiness.

I refer you back to the many detailed and avoided posts above.

 

[WPM]

More avoidance!

You won't address any rebuttals. Address the rebuttals instead of skipping around them please.

You first.But you have already proved that you won't. You have made it obvious that you cannot.

What text, what post or what argument have I avoided? I have addressed everything you have presented, and you know it. You are obviously on the ropes.

 

[Zao is life]

What text, what post or what argument have I avoided? I have addressed everything you have presented, and you know it. You are obviously on the ropes.

Sure you have. how about my first post and post #127 and many others, and the question you won't answer?

Unless you are really special you had no spiritual life in you when you were born, just like the rest of us, the sons of Adam. So when did you die spiritually and where was your spiritual grave that you got "spiritually resurrected" from before you were even born of the Spirit?

PS. Please answer Post #127 instead of skipping and avoiding.

 

[Zao is life]

Lies! The reader can see who is avoiding what above. It matters little what you think.

See my detailed responses above. Your back is clearly against the wall. All you are left with is insults and pettiness.

I refer you back to the many detailed and avoided posts above.

Anyway I can see either you are a bot or a human who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can, but whatever, you have made it clear that you won't engage in meaningful debate or answer questions or address post #127 (and others) because your back is up against the wall and you have no answers.

So I'll leave it here - and I'm running away, yes - but only because you have produced no real, substantial refute and this conversation has degraded into nothing more than your hurling accusations instead of debating issues.

 

[WPM]

Sure you have. how about my first post and post #127 and many others, and the question you won't answer?

Unless you are really special you had no spiritual life in you when you were born, just like the rest of us, the sons of Adam. So when did you die spiritually and where was your spiritual grave that you got "spiritually resurrected" from before you were even born of the Spirit?

PS. Please answer Post #127 instead of skipping and avoiding.

What? You want me to address all those references that you cut and pasted and refuse to exegete? I don't think so. Exegete all these and I will respond to your exegesis.

 

[WPM]

Anyway I can see either you are a bot or a human who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can, but whatever, you have made it clear that you won't engage in meaningful debate or answer questions or address post #127 (and others) because your back is up against the wall and you have no answers.

So I'll leave it here - and I'm running away, yes - but only because you have produced no real, substantial refute and this conversation has degraded into nothing more than your hurling accusations instead of debating issues.

LOL. As I thought. This is where Phase 3 kicks in. That was a quick victory!

You cannot address the many detailed posts above that expose your error. Premil has no answer to Amil. That is why many are abandoning it.

I notice that you cannot even use original language? You always have to repeat what others say. That is kindergarden behavior.

 

[WPM]

Anyway I can see either you are a bot or a human who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can, but whatever, you have made it clear that you won't engage in meaningful debate or answer questions or address post #127 (and others) because your back is up against the wall and you have no answers.

So I'll leave it here - and I'm running away, yes - but only because you have produced no real, substantial refute and this conversation has degraded into nothing more than your hurling accusations instead of debating issues.

So, are you a bot "who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can"? LOL.

Preterists, Partial Preterists and Pre-tribulationists all conflate tribulation with God's wrath

scripture is clear Such statements never make your understanding of what scriptures teaches true. Your mind is clear on the things you mentioned because your mind is made up on it, but scripture certainly is not clear about ANYTHING that Preterists and Partial-Preterists believe regarding what...

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[Spiritual Israelite]

Well according to you in previous posts of yours, they are priests in heaven now - so according to you they must be walking around swaying incense containers in heaven (or something).

What a ridiculous statement. As I said, we (believers) are priests now as well (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9). Does that mean we walk "around swaying incense containers"? No. So, why would it mean that for those who are in heaven? Please stop being ridiculous if you want to be taken seriously.

You need to specify what your human "priests in heaven" are doing because as you say, such claims are meaningless and prove nothing because scripture does not say much at all about the souls of the dead in Christ.

I don't know what they are doing exactly since scipture doesn't go into detail on that. But, I know they are conscious as Rev 6:9-11 makes clear. And being a priest of Christ has nothing to do with swaying incense containers, so please stop wasting your time talking about nonsense like that.

The Bible speaks for itself, I don't speak for it the way you do, as though you are the ultimate authority on it.

Another ridiculous statement. We both interpret it as we see fit. I do not speak for the Bible.

I listed all the verses talking about the resurrection and none of them are talking about a "spiritual" resurrection.

Did you even read my post? It doesn't seem so. I did not say that the first resurrection itself is a spiritual resurrection. How did you miss that? You just have just skimmed my post. I'm saying that the first resurrection itself is the bodily resurrection of Christ and we spiritually have part in that. I'm not saying we are spiritually resurrected, I'm saying we spiritually have part in His resurrection.

So what you're saying is the New Testament is a joke.

And here's yet another ridiculous statement from you. The only joke here is your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills.

Note: The New Testament never uses the Greek word záō in reference to any human who has died / fallen asleep / is not alive and living in his body.

Note: The New Testament rarely even references any human who has died (except Jesus) in terms of what they do after they die. So, this point is meaningless.

zōopoiéō is always used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive again, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

That's when people are still alive, though. So, this proves nothing in relation to those who are physically dead and their souls are in heaven.

syzōopoiéō is used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ, both spiritually and in reference to the quickening of the mortal body together with Christ's.

Yeah, so? Did I say otherwise? You're wasting your time here arguing with a straw man.

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are always and only used in reference to the bodily resurrection.

That is correct. So?

I listed all the verses. But you say that those verses are a joke (unless you were throwing an ad hominem attack at me, of course).

No, I do not say that at all. Don't speak for me. Just because you didn't bother actually reading what I said doesn't mean you can say things like this about me.

And John says they whom he saw were alive (zao) which in the New Testament always refers either to the living God, or to a human being being alive in his own body, every time it's used, without exception. Again, I listed all the verses.

Again, scripture doesn't say much at all about what people do after they physically die, so this statement proves nothing. Unless you believe in soul sleep, there is no reason to think that those who are physically dead, but spiritually alive cannot have the word zao used in reference to them.

There is a hint of anger in the tone of your reply post, as though you are angry with the facts?

No, I'm angry with your misrepresenation of what I believe and with some of the nonsense that you are saying.

(calling facts a joke betrays your anger at the facts).

I would never call facts a joke. You have decided to resort to making things up in order to try to make me look bad, but everyone can see past that. It's a sign of desperation on your part.

(Or else it's an ad hominem, attacking me for listing all the verses).

I would never attack someone for trying to use scripture to back up their claims. That is not an issue at all.

The only problem for your theory, when you use the above to support what you say about those Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking about, is the fact that kills it - the fact that the New Testament does not use the word zao except to speak about the living God, or humans who are alive in their own bodies, nor does it use the word anastasis except to speak about the bodily resurrection from the dead.

That means nothing since I am not saying it's talking about their spiritual resurrection. But, I do believe that when a believer physically dies their soul is still alive and that person can still be considered alive (zao) in that sense. But, you apparently believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. If you didn't, then you wouldn't be saying the things that you're saying. You strongly come across as though you believe that when someone is physically dead then they are asleep and doing nothing while waiting to be bodily resurrected.

Nor does the New Testament ever use either the word zao or the word anastasis when talking about the quickening of the Spirit.

I never said that it did. Do you enjoy wasting your time making straw man arguments? You can't get that time back.

It's because we are alive in our own human bodies (zao) that we are priests on earth right now.

Why would we stop being priests when we physically die? It seems that you would only believe that if you believe in soul sleep.

Only you can explain what priestly functions those who have died / fallen asleep in Christ are performing in heaven prior to the bodily resurrection of all those who died / fell asleep in Christ. It's your theory that they are priests in heaven right now, not mine.

It's your ridiculous theory that being a priest has to involve "swaying incense containers", yet we are priests now and are not doing that. Think about it.

I don't know how human souls function as priests without having any limbs. That's your forte, apparently.

No, it isn't. I don't claim to know what goes on in heaven since I haven't been there. All I know is that scripture strongly gives the impression that people are still conscious even after physically/bodily dying. But, you don't seem to believe that.

Is the message of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to his churches a message to the living or the dead? Is it a message to those who are alive (zao) in their human bodies or to those who have died / fallen asleep in Christ? Who is the "us" John is referring to in the above verses?

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Are the souls of the dead in Christ conscious or not? What does it indicate about that in Rev 6:9-11?

What they are doing and your claim that they are priests in heaven (though they are not alive in their bodies (zao) requires you to specify what these priests in heaven do, not me who does not believe in any priest in heaven except our High Priest - because He alone is alive in His own body after rising from the dead, and He alone is immortal, and He alone sits on a throne in heaven.

Being priests of Christ is more of an indication of our status in Christ rather than anything specific that we are doing. We obviously don't perform the duties of the priests that we read about in the Bible or anything like that.

Why is your reply so full of meaningless statements? First you say that scripture does not say much at all about it, then you claim that they are priests in heaven. You make sense to yourself with this stuff you say, but not to me.

I draw that conclusion from my understanding of scripture as a whole. I determine the timing of Revelation 20 based on my understanding of other more straightforward scripture that speaks of the timing of things like Christ's reign, the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment.

 

[WPM]

Anyway I can see either you are a bot or a human who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can, but whatever, you have made it clear that you won't engage in meaningful debate or answer questions or address post #127 (and others) because your back is up against the wall and you have no answers.

So I'll leave it here - and I'm running away, yes - but only because you have produced no real, substantial refute and this conversation has degraded into nothing more than your hurling accusations instead of debating issues.

So, are you a bot "who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can"? LOL. You should think before hurling charges. I think your mask has fell!!!

Undecided in eschatology

My questions to AMILLENNIALISTS are: 1. How do you reconcile satan being bound from deceiving the nations with him PRESENTLY deceiving the nations in Rev 12:9 and other verses where the WHOLE EARTH is said to be under the power of the evil one (1 john 5:19)? Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And...

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[Zao is life]

So, are you a bot "who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can"? LOL. You should think before hurling charges. I think your mask has fell!!!

Undecided in eschatology

My questions to AMILLENNIALISTS are: 1. How do you reconcile satan being bound from deceiving the nations with him PRESENTLY deceiving the nations in Rev 12:9 and other verses where the WHOLE EARTH is said to be under the power of the evil one (1 john 5:19)? Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And...

www.christianforums.com

Aah you are so full of attacks and accusations because you cannot accept you may not have all the answers the way I admit I do, and because you cannot answer this:

The biblical concept of eternal life is inextricably intertwined with being alive in a body. The Greek word for being alive in the body is záō. The Greek nouns for the resurrection from physical death (bodily resurrection from death) are anástasis and égersis; and the verbs associated with resurrection from physical death are egeírō and anístēmi.

All human beings since the time of the fall of Adam are born spiritually dead, but no one except Adam died spiritually.

The New Testament does not consider any son or daughter of Adam who is born into this world as being spiritually dead because they had "died" spiritually and need to be spiritually "resurrected" from spiritual death. Rather, all who were born after Adam's spiritual death are born spiritually dead because we were born without spiritual life, and unless life is given to us through the quickening of the Spirit, we would all have remained spiritually dead:

"That which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

"Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;" (John 3:3).

In the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening of Christ by the same Spirit, leads to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

In the New Testament, wherever the word záō (alive, living) is found, the word refers to the living (záō) God or to humans being alive (záō) in their own human bodies.

I gave all the verses, so that whoever wants to can read them and check the context of each verse for themselves.

I'd love to know how you - and only you - managed to die spiritually after Adam died spiritually, and how only you got spiritually "resurrected" from your "spiritual grave" before you were even born spiritually when the rest of us who were born after Adam are born into this world without any spiritual life to die from in the first place and can only be born spiritually, never spiritually "resurrected". You must consider yourself really special.