The Gospel of Grace:

[Stan]

The Gospel of Grace: --- All scriptures from the NKJV
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After studying the Scriptures for over 60 years and writing many articles contradicting the writings of those that place their faith in their religions and religious practices, I have concluded that most will not believe what I write here. However, I am going to write what I believe to be the true Gospel of God’s grace based on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
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The true Gospel of Grace is that God has now concluded ALL men are hopelessly lost and are continually sinful in the flesh. Since that is true, based on the law, then God is totally fair in offering salvation based on the work of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. The blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, covers ALL the sins of anyone that will place ALL their belief, faith, trust, confidence, and hope in the work of God on the cross. These are betting their eternal life on the work of God and are made children of God in Christ.
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It makes me sad to understand that most men/women do not really do this. They seem to place their salvation on religious activities and their works. They believe in the “social/moral gospel” taught by religions. In reality they place their trust in what they do, not what God has done. They cannot deny themselves and follow Jesus. They will not relinquish control of their salvation to God and, instead, place their bets on what they “do for God“, not on what God has done for them.
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The following Scriptures show us that it is the work of God that saves.
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2 Cor 1:20-22
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
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Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written:
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"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
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37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
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1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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1 Cor 15:56-58
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
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1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
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All those that place ALL their belief, faith, trust, confidence, and hope in the work of God on the cross are kept by the power of God, not by their own power. Many do not believe this and I, personally, believe them to be hopelessly lost.

Richard,

You had me to the end, but "KEPT by the power of God" in OSAS doctrine in my view and I don't accept that.
If I have taken your words wrongly then please let me know.
You quote 1Cor 15:58 where Paul clearly says... be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.
We are to excercise our freewill to obey and submit to God's will ALL the time. We are NOT puppets.

 

[Watchwithme]

The doctrine of grace and righteousness by faith alone. are unshakable and are the foundation of even our very purpose for being in this age. for He was he

please understand the book is the same for those of us who love truth and are taught by the Holy Spirit of Truth! and not trying to play nice christian word games . and you may not understand this but when God gives ot His Righteousness to a man he also gives a boldness that does not play at church but warns every man with the truth. for the Righteous are as bold as lions! and sorry for my spelling errors and must admit my written skills are not what they should be.

I don't play word games and the accusation is severely getting on my wick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[haz]

Hi dragonfly,

Just a timely warning, perhaps for some of the regulars here anyway, to be wary of sedentary lifestyles. One reason why I have less time for forums now is my sedentary job combined with sedentary periods at forums, etc has led to back and muscular issues that require exercises to rectify.
So...my tip to all here, keep those postures upright and move about or you'll be sorry you didn't.

BTW dragonfly, thanks for pointing out your posts #73, #75. I had missed them.
Regarding your question about EK's claim that believing on Jesus = fables, below are some responses he made to others here regarding their reference to believing on Jesus. I realise your argument is that EK is referring to a different understanding on belief, but, his understanding refers to physical evidence, which is the issue of disagreement here.

EK's responses against believing on Jesus to be saved.
TOPIC: The gospel of grace
Post #2 " So rather than a make believe fairy tale salvation...seek the Lord in reality and repent from the dead works that you claim to not be responsible for (as per the gnostic notion of a saving knowledge that has no power over the flesh). "

TOPIC: Galatians 5
Post #51 "You buy a bible and read where it says..."believe and be saved"...then the human brain gets excited...Man, the Catholics never told me it was this easy!!! I DO already believe!!!! I root for Jesus when I watch Jesus movies!!! So the bible is telling me that I'm saved!!!! WOW! This is good news!!! I can now claim I'm saved!
Unfortunately this is the depth of the modern western church. The gospel is made out to be an information campaign. Just agree to the deal and you're guaranteed (guarantee yourself) that you're saved!!!! Ridiculous! No wonder the church is sliding more and more into the pit.
Are Christians sinners
#82 "You are indoctrinated by men into a salvation scheme that does nothing to empower you to walk as Jesus did. You are chasing wind. "

TOPIC: Freedom to Sin
#8 "So give them a false gospel that grants what ALL people want for themselves...."

TOPIC: Lawless ones subverting truth
#15
LIkewise the righteousness of these make-believe liberal believers live in a false reality where they think...we believe therefore we are. This is more of a mental game than any reflection whatsoever on true Christianity.

#19 Same delusions...what people will do in order to feel like they're eternally saved.
Why does unreality ALWAYS accompany this attribute of an eternal security?

#22 ..."believe and be saved" and completely ignore all the rest by creating a man made religion they call "the grace gospel". This false fantasy gospel

TOPIC: How to understand your sin
#9
Your understanding is a common fable...magic Jesus comes to absolve you to sin as you wish (without trying to of course
#30 You obviously have been indoctrinated by men against the truth. You have advanced into fables.
TOPIC: Doctrine of Salvation
#3 The doctrine of salvation is the biggest stumblingblock to the truth in Christ.

EK has stated that we not not immune to any laws. He thus includes the law of sin and death (10 commandments)
As EK's style is to offer ambiguous responses with little or no scriptural context, nor specifics on what he implies, it did take some time to determine that he includes the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness) in his doctrine of walking in perfect physical obedience.
I note also that you agree with EK on including this law.
EK says that the soul that sins shall die. This is correct as scripture testifies. We differ however in understanding on whether "sin" applies to those in Christ.
Many believers use the (misapplied) label "sin" for any wrongdoing they do whilst recognizing that their righteousness is determined in Christ. Many here on this forum believe on Jesus. But EK attacks them all trying to undermine their belief.
EK rejects the gospel many here follow, claiming it is a Gnostic doctrine.
We see that EK's gospel is that physical evidence of perfection must be seen physically. Without this physical evidence of physical perfection, one is not abiding in Christ/does not know him. And the soul that sin's shall die. EK faces this same condemnation as he himself is not walking in this perfection continuously. His gospel makes Christ harder to attain, so much so that he admits he knows of nobody who abides in Christ continuously. His is a one-again-off-again abiding in Christ.

I do see that we all share some similarities on various points however.
For example you and EK speak of physical evidence of a perfect lifestyle (which you both have not attained nor do you know anyone who has done so).
But for many others here we likewise believe that God is working in our lives hence often our lifestyles improve.
Where we differ is that EK's doctrine results in death in sin if one is not living perfectly in the physical.
The doctrine you and EK follow is similar to what I have seen from Seventh Day Adventists. They likewise claim that grace enables them to keep the 10 commandments, etc. Similarly they fail to perfectly obey.

Anyway, this post is too long already. Sorry for this. I'll get back to exercising to correct the dodgy posture I fell into while writing all this

 

[brother dave]

Richard,

You had me to the end, but "KEPT by the power of God" in OSAS doctrine in my view and I don't accept that.
If I have taken your words wrongly then please let me know.
You quote 1Cor 15:58 where Paul clearly says... be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.
We are to excercise our freewill to obey and submit to God's will ALL the time. We are NOT puppets.

FREE WILL IS AN ILLUSION! man lost free-will at the tree of knowledge, where he assumed responsibility for himself? but the same tree blinding him with the pride of thinking that he has a free-will to do good or evil. the bible affirms that it IS NOT in mans will or ability to do good? not to Gods standard! and as at first, salvation is not an active will but a continued process of surrendered will unto the will of Another. being steadfast , unmoving, abounding in HIS WORK ONLY is that which belong to those who have died to "free will"

 

[Watchwithme]

FREE WILL IS AN ILLUSION!

Now your talkin my language Brother DAve! Get that man a cigar!

Doh! Then you go and ruin it by saying "man is not capable of doing good" followed by something akin to " man saves himself by being good". Please God say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[brother dave]

I don't play word games and the accusation is severely getting on my wick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not sure what that is?? but sounds bad and dont want anything bad to happen to you. it dawned on me,that you may be very sincere in what you know? but not knowing common NT terms such as we have been speaking, proves that you are not at a level that you attempt to present to others in this forum. i suggest you humble yourself and begin to ask questions instead of giving your viewpoint on things you know little about? to become wise in Gods plan of giving grace to the humble and wisdom to those that ask. one first must become a fool to be made wise!

 

[Watchwithme]

not sure what that is?? but sounds bad and dont want anything bad to happen to you. it dawned on me,that you may be very sincere in what you know? but not knowing common NT terms such as we have been speaking, proves that you are not at a level that you attempt to present to others in this forum. i suggest you humble yourself and begin to ask questions instead of giving your viewpoint on things you know little about? to become wise in Gods plan of giving grace to the humble and wisdom to those that ask. one first must become a fool to be made wise!

I'm not trying to present myself as anything to others on this forum (all five or six of you). True I am unaware of the latest trendy in crowd "churchy" sayings and cliches. I asked you a question Mr Humble you ignored and got snarky and priggish. I think you and I are done now.

 

[dragonfly]

I think you and I are done now.

This is the second threat from your fingertips. Is there any point in them? Are you leaving us so soon?

And the fruit of the Spirit is .... longsuffering....



If you can regard the topic as a ball, and apply your foot to the ball rather than other players, the game can be mutually painfree ....

 

[brother dave]

I'm not trying to present myself as anything to others on this forum (all five or six of you). True I am unaware of the latest trendy in crowd "churchy" sayings and cliches. I asked you a question Mr Humble you ignored and got snarky and priggish. I think you and I are done now.

these so-called trendy sayings are the Word of God! this is how we speak to one another. the reason you have so much trouble in conversing with others is because of your poverty in even the basics of bible knowledge.


I would like to discuss a bible topic with those who have some knowledge of what it says? that is the FREE WILL group, and i equate this group as those who remain in the wilderness going in circles? For Gods will was one thing, go into promise by faith! mans will is always to attempt to find in themselves the answers and ability to achieve the promises of God? no the Victory is to the weak made strong by His Grace! to the fool made wise!

God bless, work awaits ,but hope to have more discussion after my labors?

 

[brightmorningstar]

A lot of people do immense good works who have no faith in God whatsoever and the believers works will be tested with a clearly very stringent test that will burn them as stubble if they don't measure up. We are lucky to get into heaven by the skin of our teeth every last one of us. The works faith debate is tedious beyond measure.

Spot on. Faith is trusting in God and the works will be the manifestation.

But as believers we need to make sure we keep our eye on the decpetion that is humanism, that is that good works can be done by unbelievers, they are, but they arent works that last or count.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

that is that good works can be done by unbelievers, they are, but they arent works that last or count.

This is an interesting one. I know what you mean, but from my reading of scripture, God allows unbelievers to serve His purposes in exactly these ways - as well as by the evil that some of them do. Now there's a paradox!

Hi haz,

Thanks for the work you've done in collecting quotes.

Although I jumped into the Falling from grace thread, I am not speaking for Ek now. What I can say is, I know exactly what he's talking about, and he is not alone in preaching against the importance of a changed relationship with sin as evidence of a changed relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Is this what you claim for yourself now - a changed relationship with sin - I don't just mean with regard to sins that are past, but with the propensity to sin - through your identification with Christ in His death?

When you quote 1 Peter 4:1 and 2, do you suffer in the flesh (as Peter mentions), rather than sin?

 

[Watchwithme]

This is the second threat from your fingertips. Is there any point in them? Are you leaving us so soon?

And the fruit of the Spirit is .... longsuffering....



If you can regard the topic as a ball, and apply your foot to the ball rather than other players, the game can be mutually painfree ....

yep Im out of here all the best to ya.I won, 10 nil to me, you calvanists and areminans have fun long suffering together yiull need the practise for eternity, Im looking for a christian forum fro some fellowship.

 

[Stan]

FREE WILL IS AN ILLUSION! man lost free-will at the tree of knowledge, where he assumed responsibility for himself? but the same tree blinding him with the pride of thinking that he has a free-will to do good or evil. the bible affirms that it IS NOT in mans will or ability to do good? not to Gods standard! and as at first, salvation is not an active will but a continued process of surrendered will unto the will of Another. being steadfast , unmoving, abounding in HIS WORK ONLY is that which belong to those who have died to "free will"

Not quite, free will is a part our nature. Saying the Bible affirms and then not supplying any scripture, does not give any valididty to your assertion.

yep Im out of here all the best to ya.I won, 10 nil to me, you calvanists and areminans have fun long suffering together yiull need the practise for eternity, Im looking for a christian forum fro some fellowship.

Oh Watch, don't go away mad, please......just go away.

 

[Watchwithme]

Ive got fat Stan on ignore so I cant see the tripe spewing forth from his gob. I rebuke you stan for gluttony. .

 

[Stan]

Ive got fat Stan on ignore so I cant see the tripe spewing forth from his gob. I rebuke you stan for gluttony. .

and yet you answer, and have still not gone away.

 

[goodshepard55]

You know if I did not know better I would think the topic of this thread was..Let's see how far we can tear each other down.....Where in the world is the grace everyone is talking about? I can understand the difference in opinions, the difference in our level of knowledge of the word, even understand the frustration at others twisting our words and not really understanding what we have said due to culture / country difference or language difference..( fight that all the time in Australia )....but to come on a public forum and to tear in to each other like a bunch of three year olds fighting over a car or doll is totally not edifying to God nor to any of you...I really would dislike people sitting and reading this thread to gauge the forum by the responses here..you all have made quite an impression on me with your total lack of understanding, grace and discipling skills..You do understand that God's Word is the truth and sometimes it is better just to use His Holy Words and let them speak for you than to rip into each other...if you can't at least be nicer to one another even while disagreeing with every word someone writes...then stop answering the post or that person, or better still teach the truth from the Word with the Word....Each and everyone of you have knowledge and skills others lack or skills that others need...but each of you need a heart to heart with Jesus on how to treat others....the damage done to others by our total disregard to what comes out of our mouths or fingers in this case is not easily understood by us sometimes...but when we let our mouth / fingers run away distroying each other we fall right in line with mr darkness...he does not want us to have grace, compassion, empathy or teaching skills to make others want to know Jesus...

Knowing Jesus by us and then sharing Him with others is what we should be doing...not trying to see how far we can knock someone or each other down...wisdom is need here by each of you...take it to Jesus and let Him use you to bring His glory here...

Grace and love to you all

Shep

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard,

You had me to the end, but "KEPT by the power of God" in OSAS doctrine in my view and I don't accept that.
If I have taken your words wrongly then please let me know.
You quote 1Cor 15:58 where Paul clearly says... be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.
We are to excercise our freewill to obey and submit to God's will ALL the time. We are NOT puppets.

So you do not have faith that Jesus will keep you. Sorry about that but I do.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV

I totally belive that Jesus (God) has the power to keep me even though I still sin in the flesh.

What do you think the work of the Lord is, not sinning? I believe that the work of the Lord is preaching the gospel of Grace that saves sinners.

I am sorry that you do not have enough faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood that reconciles you to God, to keep you saved. The scripture does not say His shed blood and your works. But if you are satisfied that you have to keep yourself saved by what you do then that is what you want. But to me salvation is the work of God, not man and I will trust in Him.

 

[Watchwithme]

You know if I did not know better I would think the topic of this thread was..Let's see how far we can tear each other down.....Where in the world is the grace everyone is talking about? I can understand the difference in opinions, the difference in our level of knowledge of the word, even understand the frustration at others twisting our words and not really understanding what we have said due to culture / country difference or language difference..( fight that all the time in Australia )....but to come on a public forum and to tear in to each other like a bunch of three year olds fighting over a car or doll is totally not edifying to God nor to any of you...I really would dislike people sitting and reading this thread to gauge the forum by the responses here..you all have made quite an impression on me with your total lack of understanding, grace and discipling skills..You do understand that God's Word is the truth and sometimes it is better just to use His Holy Words and let them speak for you than to rip into each other...if you can't at least be nicer to one another even while disagreeing with every word someone writes...then stop answering the post or that person, or better still teach the truth from the Word with the Word....Each and everyone of you have knowledge and skills others lack or skills that others need...but each of you need a heart to heart with Jesus on how to treat others....the damage done to others by our total disregard to what comes out of our mouths or fingers in this case is not easily understood by us sometimes...but when we let our mouth / fingers run away distroying each other we fall right in line with mr darkness...he does not want us to have grace, compassion, empathy or teaching skills to make others want to know Jesus...

Knowing Jesus by us and then sharing Him with others is what we should be doing...not trying to see how far we can knock someone or each other down...wisdom is need here by each of you...take it to Jesus and let Him use you to bring His glory here...

Grace and love to you all

Shep

Were only talking about eternity, its no biggy.

.............................

 

[dragonfly]

Hi again haz,

I added to my post to you, but missed the edit window while it was open. Your post (#2) in Kidron's thread How to understand your sins now that you are born again, http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16159-how-to-understand-your-sinsnow-that-you-are-born-again/ gave me more food for thought, so I'm not sure how far apart we are, but I do have two real objections according to what you wrote there.

The first is your redefinition of 'sin' in such a way that no definition of sin can apply to Christians by your reckoning. This cannot be sound doctrine, in the light of John's first epistle and Paul's epistles.

The second is your reversal of world history's real timeline with regard to 'where there is no law there is no transgression' - Romans 4:15.

There was no law for over two thousand years after the Fall. Then there was the law of Moses, the keeping of which was intrinsic to Israel being a nation in God's sight. There was no going back from there. The only way was forward. Christ came under the law. Christ brought the law to an end for those who believe in Him. But the law has not disappeared for those who have not believed in Him. And it could be argued that every failure of a Christian to obey Him, is also a form of unbelief.

But there is a way to be free from the law - by embracing the death of Jesus Christ - Romans 10:4, Acts 13:38, 39, that we may walk in newness of life, by the power of the Holy Spirit, obeying HIm. In this newness of life we reckon ourselves dead with Christ continuously, and yield to Him our whole bodies as instruments of righteousness, set apart for His purposes, to bear the fruit of holiness. There should be no room for sin here, but, what of 1 John 2:1?

Why would Paul exhort Timothy to 'flee youthful lusts', if he believed that the law had been removed so that now Christians can sin? Romans 6:1. Why would he exhort 'flee idolatry', or, 'flee fornication', if now the technical absence of the law means transgression can no longer be identified as sin? Why would he buffet his own body, lest he himself be castaway?


I am interested in your answers to these questions, and whether you believe Paul's exhortations apply to us today.

Take your time replying, and don't forget those exercises! :mellow:

 

[Stan]

So you do not have faith that Jesus will keep you. Sorry about that but I do.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV

I totally belive that Jesus (God) has the power to keep me even though I still sin in the flesh.

What do you think the work of the Lord is, not sinning? I believe that the work of the Lord is preaching the gospel of Grace that saves sinners.

I am sorry that you do not have enough faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood that reconciles you to God, to keep you saved. The scripture does not say His shed blood and your works. But if you are satisfied that you have to keep yourself saved by what you do then that is what you want. But to me salvation is the work of God, not man and I will trust in Him.

You have deliberately misrepresented my words Richard...I will not reply to your diversionary tactics.