The Gospel of Grace:

[dragonfly]

Hi Watchwithme,

I did notice you were born in Northern Ireland. I'm a tiny bit Irish myself. Sorry I didn't get back to you on that. A friend of mine is applying for a job in NZ right now. :) - still waiting to hear that all-important acknowledgement of application received safely.

I hope you'll stick around here, but if not, I feel extremely grateful you stayed long enough to post the God Particle and introduce me to the work of Howard Ratcliffe. I've already told two people about him and the list will definitely grow! He and littleguy are on the same page from different perspectives, and I love that. I love how the Holy Spirit brings unity at a deeper level than we can put into words usually. God bless you.

 

[brother dave]

I have just recently been considering the free will issue? and also the effect of humanism on or bible translations, and our faith in general?
and being from the south, here that term free-will is used to justify walking in the flesh, and other carnal religious activities. The free- will groups are by far our biggest obstacle to the true gospel here. i do not know what it may mean to some on this forum but when i hear the term i always wonder if those who use it have ever really considered ,that salvation is surrendered will?? and as far as posting a scripture reference at every statement i make? its not going to happen with me, for if what i say needs a scripture referance , i will use it. if i believe it to be common bible knowledge then if you are unable to understand then please let me know and i will take the time to do it. most post i have seen here are by those who are presenting themselves as one who has at least a working knowledge of the scriptures?? i guess we will see? and would love more info on the humanism!!! God Bless

 

[haz]

Hi dragonfly,

Did you miss my post #103 above?
Excuse the small print though. In copying some quotes it dropped to a smaller size without my realizing it before signing off the forum.

Regarding the definition of sin, we both understand the epistles of John and Paul differently, each thinking the other's is unsound doctrine.

Regarding Rom 4:15 'where there is no law there is no transgression', it still applies.
It was the physical Jews who were under the law, and as Rom 8:2 says:
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Rom 2:12 shows how even not being under the law led to death.
'For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law'

Remember 'all unrighteousness is sin', 1John 5:17
Whether you were under the law or not, if you're unrighteous (Rom 3:10 “There is none righteous, no, not one") then you're in sin and the result is death. Those after the fall (before the law came) were unrighteous.

Christians however are righteous in Christ. As we are righteous in Christ then how can we possibly be in sin still (1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1)?

 

[Episkopos]

I have just recently been considering the free will issue? and also the effect of humanism on or bible translations, and our faith in general?
and being from the south, here that term free-will is used to justify walking in the flesh, and other carnal religious activities. The free- will groups are by far our biggest obstacle to the true gospel here. i do not know what it may mean to some on this forum but when i hear the term i always wonder if those who use it have ever really considered ,that salvation is surrendered will?? and as far as posting a scripture reference at every statement i make? its not going to happen with me, for if what i say needs a scripture referance , i will use it. if i believe it to be common bible knowledge then if you are unable to understand then please let me know and i will take the time to do it. most post i have seen here are by those who are presenting themselves as one who has at least a working knowledge of the scriptures?? i guess we will see? and would love more info on the humanism!!! God Bless

We also must choose. While God is certainly sovereign He doesn't force anyone to obey Him. The very problem we have in the church today is not that God is failing to live up to His promises...but rather that people are choosing to follow their own ways. If there were no free will for the disciple then we would be living in a state of perpetual revival. Rather people settle for a superficial facade that they claim abolves them of any responsibility for the sin they do....either they blame the devil or the flesh they no longer feel they have a responsibility over.



The whole process of growing up into Christ involves us learning to love what God loves. And to hate what He hates.

Not putting up with anything LESS than God's will is a place of decision we all need to get to. WE are the builders who decide what we are building with...and we will be judged for it.

Hi dragonfly,

Did you miss my post #103 above?
Excuse the small print though. In copying some quotes it dropped to a smaller size without my realizing it before signing off the forum.

Regarding the definition of sin, we both understand the epistles of John and Paul differently, each thinking the other's is unsound doctrine.

Regarding Rom 4:15 'where there is no law there is no transgression', it still applies.
It was the physical Jews who were under the law, and as Rom 8:2 says:
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Rom 2:12 shows how even not being under the law led to death.
'For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law'

Remember 'all unrighteousness is sin', 1John 5:17
Whether you were under the law or not, if your unrighteous (Rom 3:10 “There is none righteous, no, not one") then your in sin and the result is death. Those after the fall (before the law came) were unrighteous.

Christians however are righteous in Christ. As we are righteous in Christ then how can we possibly be in sin still (1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1)?

Anyone is righteous in Christ not just Christians. God has no prejudices.

In regards to righteousness...you are not following the biblical understanding of such but rather the modern take that makes "our group" the only righteous ones. But bestowing a righteousness on one's self is not biblical.

You forgot to mention that Noah was righteous in his generation. Abel was righteous....Enoch walked with God and was translated.

God looks at the heart. Men who justify themselves are doing so by their own minds...which reveals a corrupt heart.

 

[Stan]

I have just recently been considering the free will issue? and also the effect of humanism on or bible translations, and our faith in general?
and being from the south, here that term free-will is used to justify walking in the flesh, and other carnal religious activities. The free- will groups are by far our biggest obstacle to the true gospel here. i do not know what it may mean to some on this forum but when i hear the term i always wonder if those who use it have ever really considered ,that salvation is surrendered will?? and as far as posting a scripture reference at every statement i make? its not going to happen with me, for if what i say needs a scripture referance , i will use it. if i believe it to be common bible knowledge then if you are unable to understand then please let me know and i will take the time to do it. most post i have seen here are by those who are presenting themselves as one who has at least a working knowledge of the scriptures?? i guess we will see? and would love more info on the humanism!!! God Bless

As in ALL things Biblical, misusing a concept or principle is of course wrong. Paul clearly states how our free will should be used. It is up to us to submit to Jesus and DO what is needed. FYI, Calvin was trained as a humanist lawyer.
GBU2

 

[goodshepard55]

Were only talking about eternity, its no biggy.

.............................

and darling that is where you are wrong....that is what I was talking about if you would stop a minute with the fast comebacks and really read the post....How can we help others find the eternity with Jesus if we are throwing out nasty remarks? You can't..people read threads such as this and think why would they give there life to a God that makes people act this way? Jesus used some harsh tones and words, but he did it all in the very love and compassion He shows us today...He got frustrated by the very facts that the Pharisees could not see Him as the one to bring them life, that they missed the whole point of His life on earth....He tried to let them see who He was, they ignored Him and had the holier than thou attitude...so darling please remember it is all about Jesus, not your knowledge or anyone elses knowledge of the Word of God...cause darling I can rest assured that our knowledge and understanding of His words have been twisted, turned around and used against all for our own personal ....I know better than you the Word so put that in your pipe and smoke it....All we have is our own understanding of the Word, which will deffer because of culture / language and our own attitudes....

Shep

 

[haz]

Anyone is righteous in Christ not just Christians. God has no prejudices.

In regards to righteousness...you are not following the biblical understanding of such but rather the modern take that makes "our group" the only righteous ones. But bestowing a righteousness on one's self is not biblical.

You forgot to mention that Noah was righteous in his generation. Abel was righteous....Enoch walked with God and was translated.

God looks at the heart. Men who justify themselves are doing so by their own minds...which reveals a corrupt heart.

Hi Epi,

Of course you're here again seeking to undermine the faith of all here with your corrupt gospel.

Why would you think I was not including Enoch, Abel, Noah, in the righteous group? No doubt you use this point as just another way to get your foot in the door and sell us your gospel of works of the law.

Thanks, but no thanks. We have the much more glorious ministry of righteousness/The Spirit (2Cor 2:7,8). You can keep your minstry of death/condemnation.

 

[brother dave]

We also must choose. While God is certainly sovereign He doesn't force anyone to obey Him. The very problem we have in the church today is not that God is failing to live up to His promises...but rather that people are choosing to follow their own ways. If there were no free will for the disciple then we would be living in a state of perpetual revival. Rather people settle for a superficial facade that they claim abolves them of any responsibility for the sin they do....either they blame the devil or the flesh they no longer feel they have a responsibility over.



The whole process of growing up into Christ involves us learning to love what God loves. And to hate what He hates.

Not putting up with anything LESS than God's will is a place of decision we all need to get to. WE are the builders who decide what we are building with...and we will be judged for it.



Anyone is righteous in Christ not just Christians. God has no prejudices.

In regards to righteousness...you are not following the biblical understanding of such but rather the modern take that makes "our group" the only righteous ones. But bestowing a righteousness on one's self is not biblical.

You forgot to mention that Noah was righteous in his generation. Abel was righteous....Enoch walked with God and was translated.

God looks at the heart. Men who justify themselves are doing so by their own minds...which reveals a corrupt heart.

let me make myself clear, whether it be my free-will or Gods will? i am forever righteous for HE said it was righteous to MAKE ME the sinner RIGHTEOUS! it was HIS will! not mine? and the whole point of salvation is to die to the FLESH with its WILL! and live in Gods will! what i see is many walking in by what they call freewill? but they are really just slaves to there own sense of right and wrong! which by the way is humanism!!!!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Of course you're here again seeking to undermine the faith of all here with your corrupt gospel.

Why would you think I was not including Enoch, Abel, Noah, in the righteous group? No doubt you use this point as just another way to get your foot in the door and sell us your gospel of works of the law.

Thanks, but no thanks. We have the much more glorious ministry of righteousness/The Spirit (2Cor 2:7,8). You can keep your minstry of death/condemnation.

You reveal your own heart by the way you let your mouth speak...and in this case ....the fingers type! God weighs the heart. Men try finding a formula that excludes the heart.

My gospel is one of actual power unto holiness. The New Covenant is the law inscribed on the tablets of our hearts. It is NOT the law being erased from our minds.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Does this sound like a false gospel??? Or rather are those who preach a lawless and yet saved iniquity preaching a false gospel?

This is where discernment really counts! ;)

Believing something from the mind brings a form of godliness...then the pride of the heart that is of the old nature boasts of salvation while denying the power thereof.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Heart first ....mouth second. The mouth first crowd have skipped over the working of God.

let me make myself clear, whether it be my free-will or Gods will? i am forever righteous for HE said it was righteous to MAKE ME the sinner RIGHTEOUS! it was HIS will! not mine? and the whole point of salvation is to die to the FLESH with its WILL! and live in Gods will! what i see is many walking in by what they call freewill? but they are really just slaves to there own sense of right and wrong! which by the way is humanism!!!!

The brain argues in futility. No one can claim righteousness for what he has done or believed. No man can justify himself. Only God can justify. Being able to read the bible and claim certain verses are yours does nothing in the heavenlies...or the human heart save perhaps deceive it the more.

God wills that all men be saved...but they would not humble themselves. Even those who have been sovereignly converted through a new birth must also humble themselves. Pride brings a very great fall indeed.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brother dave,

but they are really just slaves to there own sense of right and wrong! which by the way is humanism!!!!

It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil at work, not the tree of life.




Hi haz,

I did read your post with the small writing. To be honest, the main difference I can find between what Ek, Ax and I know to be true, is that you quote a combination of verses which absolve believers of all sin regardless of their behaviour, and we don't believe that's what the BIble teaches.

That's it in a nutshell. If you believe that now you don't sin by definition because you are righteous in Christ, then your gospel is more one of sinless perfection that Episkopos' has ever claimed.

You are happy to quote 'have ceased from sin' 1 Peter 4:1, but there is nothing about suffering in the flesh, or, resisting sin, in what you've written, nor about living our lives to God, rather than - v 2 - according to the lusts of men. This is basic. He did not give His life for us so we could carry on doing what we wanted. He gave His life to buy us back into fellowship with God in reality ceasing from sin, by walking in the Spirit and not following the flesh. It's not a technical definition. It's related to how we actually behave. This seems to have been one of your main complaints against Ek's 'doctrine' - that he agrees with Paul, Peter and John that ceasing from sin means living differently than before coming to faith in Christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is, you call this a 'works' gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

The argument against showing the fruit of a new heart through obedience to the laws of God reveals the self-justification of an old nature seeking to cover it's tracks. I am not espousing a physical and mental assent to the law...but rather an obedience from a new heart that is inscribed with the law of God. That is the New Covenant...a writing of the law on tablets of flesh...not an erasure of responsibility to free the mind from the guilt of it's own idolatries.

 

[Stan]

The argument against showing the fruit of a new heart through obedience to the laws of God reveals the self-justification of an old nature seeking to cover it's tracks. I am not espousing a physical and mental assent to the law...but rather an obedience from a new heart that is inscribed with the law of God. That is the New Covenant...a writing of the law on tablets of flesh...not an erasure of responsibility to free the mind from guilt of it's own idolatries.

So you are saying that IF we are really saved and have a "new heart" as you put it, we will just naturally, or spiritually if you will, do what God writes on our hearts as His will and law, and NOT sin? No Free Will involved?

 

[Episkopos]

So you are saying that IF we are really saved and have a "new heart" as you put it, we will just naturally, or spiritually if you will, do what God writes on our hearts as His will and law, and NOT sin? No Free Will involved?

A truly born again person actually HAS free will. The bible exhorts us to walk in the Spirit now that we have been quickened in the spirit. We can very easily stray through a false understanding of grace. This is what I try to point out to so many here. Either they have never been given a new life or have thrown away the preciousness of abiding in Christ through a bad habit of sowing to the flesh. Modern doctrines make all kind of room for the fallen nature to feel right at home. After all bills must be paid...those big empty buildings need utilities and upkeep....and then there are the salaries...

 

[Stan]

A truly born again person actually HAS free will. The bible exhorts us to walk in the Spirit now that we have been quickened in the spirit. We can very easily stray through a false understanding of grace. This is what I try to point out to so many here. Either they have never been given a new life or have thrown away the preciousness of abiding in Christ through a bad habit of sowing to the flesh. Modern doctrines make all kind of room for the fallen nature to feel right at home. After all bills must be paid...those big empty buildings need utilities and upkeep....and then there are the salaries...

OK well let's try to stay ON topic here. So if a person actually believes and confesses Christ as Saviour, He may NOT actually be given salvation? You think it's a "crap shoot"?

 

[Episkopos]

OK well let's try to stay ON topic here. So if a person actually believes and confesses Christ as Saviour, He may NOT actually be given salvation? You think it's a "crap shoot"?

The transaction is in the heart not the brain. A person can confess to be anything he wants....but it is very Greek to think...I think therefore I am.

That is why the bible is so clear about the miraculous faculty which is grace. If we have never walked in complete perfection in holiness...then we do not "know" Jesus Christ yet. We must be dead to sin in order to be alive in Christ. Otherwise God would be residing in us WITH sin...like a spiritual adultery of two lovers in the same body. If you read romans 7 you will see this very analogy.

Very simple. Those who claim to abide in Him ought to walk even as He walked. Sort of makes Christianity sound miraculous, eh? ;)

 

[brother dave]

Hi brother dave,



It's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil at work, not the tree of life.

WOW! you get it! brother or sister? you are blessed! is it not the greatest of liberties to be set free from the lie?
'' you can be as god, knowing good and evil'' and ''you dont have to die to the flesh'' for the cross is still foolish to most and a stumbling block to those who love there own works!

You reveal your own heart by the way you let your mouth speak...and in this case ....the fingers type! God weighs the heart. Men try finding a formula that excludes the heart.

My gospel is one of actual power unto holiness. The New Covenant is the law inscribed on the tablets of our hearts. It is NOT the law being erased from our minds.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Does this sound like a false gospel??? Or rather are those who preach a lawless and yet saved iniquity preaching a false gospel?

This is where discernment really counts! ;)

Believing something from the mind brings a form of godliness...then the pride of the heart that is of the old nature boasts of salvation while denying the power thereof.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Heart first ....mouth second. The mouth first crowd have skipped over the working of God.



The brain argues in futility. No one can claim righteousness for what he has done or believed. No man can justify himself. Only God can justify. Being able to read the bible and claim certain verses are yours does nothing in the heavenlies...or the human heart save perhaps deceive it the more.

God wills that all men be saved...but they would not humble themselves. Even those who have been sovereignly converted through a new birth must also humble themselves. Pride brings a very great fall indeed.

no your right about the issue of Power in the heavens! and God does confirm with power those He has made Righteous! and He bears witness with His Holy Spirit to those who know HIM! so dont play word games with me satan. you know i have beaten you in the jails and in the streets and slums and trailor parks and i will overcome you here as well! to 2nd heaven is for losers and you will be under Our feet. but first i think i will learn some more of you tricks? so keep posting evil one this one is taught of The Spirit!

As in ALL things Biblical, misusing a concept or principle is of course wrong. Paul clearly states how our free will should be used. It is up to us to submit to Jesus and DO what is needed. FYI, Calvin was trained as a humanist lawyer.
GBU2

and thank you brother for info on Calvin!! very interesting! i am not a calvinist, and really have not studied much on his teachings but will now look into some of his teachings with that in mind! and a lawyer ???? wow looks like trouble!

 

[Stan]

The transaction is in the heart not the brain. A person can confess to be anything he wants....but it is very Greek to think...I think therefore I am.

That is why the bible is so clear about the miraculous faculty which is grace. If we have never walked in complete perfection in holiness...then we do not "know" Jesus Christ yet. We must be dead to sin in order to be alive in Christ. Otherwise God would be residing in us WITH sin...like a spiritual adultery of two lovers in the same body. If you read romans 7 you will see this very analogy.

Very simple. Those who claim to abide in Him ought to walk even as He walked. Sort of makes Christianity sound miraculous, eh? ;)

I see, so you are perfect in Christ and have NOT sinned since you were born again? You have nothing of your carnal nature that impedes your daily walk? You believe your carnal nature no longer exists since you received salvation in your heart?
BTW, the brain and heart are the same thing. It's where your psyche resides. Unless you believe as the ancient Greeks did that you heart and mind are in two different places in your body?
Maybe you can narrow down what in Romans 7 you are alluding to?

 

[Rach1370]

If we have never walked in complete perfection in holiness...then we do not "know" Jesus Christ yet. We must be dead to sin in order to be alive in Christ. Otherwise God would be residing in us WITH sin...like a spiritual adultery of two lovers in the same body. If you read romans 7 you will see this very analogy.

I disagree strongly. No one (except Christ) has ever walked 'in complete perfection in holiness'. If you judge by this standard, every single soul in creation, from beginning to end, is lost...including you. There are many scriptures I could post that would disagree with you on just the points you've said above:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-14 ESV)

When we 'hear' the word of truth and 'believe' we are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit. God is indeed already living inside us. We know we don't need to be perfect before this happens, because above Paul is talking to relatively new believers, while below he admits he himself is not perfect yet. Surely the new Ephesians, who have the HS are not walking in perfect holiness before the apostle Paul?

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Philippians 3:12-16 ESV)

Paul says Jesus has made us his own...before we are perfect. The gospel of grace...gospel being 'good news' is that Jesus died for us and 'makes us his own' while we are still sinners. That indeed is good news...that we have 'already attained' salvation.

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! (Galatians 2:15-17 ESV)

And we see that just because we stumble and fall...sin, does not mean Christ is then sullied by it. "Certainly not!"
I could go on and on with verses that show us that when we 'hear' and 'believe' we are 'saved' and declared 'righteous'. That is the gospel of grace. To say, as you have above, that we do not have any of that until we whip our flesh into perfection, is not the gospel of grace...it's a message of desperation and futility.

 

[brother dave]

Well its been really fun but i have early hours and need my sleep. blessings upon those who hold our faith in our beloved Lord with a pure conscience. tribulation and trail upon those who hinder His glory from being revealed! and take ALL YOUR WORKS to His bloody cross and use your logic their with Him ? about how you use your own free-will to do all your good works??? be sure also to have it written down for the great judgment! im sure it will be of great importance to you on that day?

 

[dragonfly]

I have a theory about free will. It is this: that when 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', Romans 10:17, for a short time we are truly free to respond to God with the faith that He's given through that 'hearing' of the word.

Whether the person 'hearing' exercises the faith they've received, or, the person 'hearing' rejects the call of the gospel, they made that choice with a truly freed will. Neither is so bound by sin they cannot take responsibility for their choice.

Ephesians 2:8, Mark 5:6, Romans 1:19

God knows whether a person has properly understood what's on offer, and if they haven't, He will keep on speaking until they do. He is like a seed-sower. He sows many more seeds than are necessary to bring forth a full crop. Yet even after first believing, believers continue to hear from God - and face similar choices again and again, receiving freedom to choose to do the right thing - including to resist sin.



Hi Stan,

you believe as the ancient Greeks did that you heart and mind are in two different places in your body?

I thought they believed that the 'heart' is where the 'mind' is. It's us that have separated them. ?? No?