The harlot's deception of the nations

[Earburner]

Does casting demons out of a man because Jesus is stronger and has the power and authority to do so mean that He has bound Satan and his demons from any further activity in the world?

Of course not.
By Jesus' first appearance, the world was judged (John 3:18), and the prince of this world was was cast out onto the earth, having great wrath. Satan no longer has access into Heaven, nor can he enter into born again christians. He may persecute and kill, but he is bound from re-entering everything and everyone that is of Heaven.

 

[David H.]

What you say is exactly why I asked the question that started this thread - but as Ferris reminded me, the harlot will be destroyed by the 10 kings of the beast so she cannot be the same as the FP who's doing the bidding of the beast. She's not still there with them by the time the beast and FP wind up in the LOF.

The beast that destroys the Harlot is not the beast of Revelation 13, But rather the one that ascends out of the Bottomless pit. A lot of people who study prophecy make this mistake, and use the descriptives in Revelation 17 to identify the beast of revelation 13, but they are vastly different. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is a fallen angel, not a man empowered by the dragon.

 

[Zao is life]

Of course not.
By Jesus' first appearance, the world was judged (John 3:18), and the prince of this world was was cast out onto the earth, having great wrath. Satan no longer has access into Heaven, nor can he enter into born again christians. He may persecute and kill, but he is bound from re-entering everything and everyone that is of Heaven.

When Satan gets bound, it will be for the stated purpose (the purpose stated in the Bible) of preventing him from deceiving the nations any longer, i.e non-Christians.

The Bible accuses Satan quite correctly of deceiving the nations. When the Bible states that Satan will be bound, the Bible's stated purpose for Satan's binding is so that he will no longer be able to deceive the nations.

You're inventing other purposes. The Bible gives one purpose and one purpose only for the binding of Satan.

 

[Zao is life]

The beast that destroys the Harlot is not the beast of Revelation 13, But rather the one that ascends out of the Bottomless pit. A lot of people who study prophecy make this mistake, and use the descriptives in Revelation 17 to identify the beast of revelation 13, but they are vastly different. The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is a fallen angel, not a man empowered by the dragon.

I disagree with that. The crowns are on the ten horns in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12 the crowns were on the heads of the dragon (each of the seven heads). In Revelation 13 the crowns have shifted to the ten horns of the beast. Satan will give that beast his seat, his power, and great authority. Revelation 17 is simply giving more info about the same beast and the same ten kings wearing the crowns in Revelation 13.

Revelation 17 tells us that the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is the 8th king who is one of the seven (one of the seven who were wearing the crowns seen on the seven heads of the dragon in Revelation 12) . Revelation 13 tells us that this 8th king had a mortal wound its head - it was one of the seven heads. But now it rises again, and all the world marvels at it.

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit of Revelation 17 is the same as the beast ascended out of the sea in Revelation 13 because those 10 kings who give all their power and authority to him are the 10 horns with the ten crowns in Revelation 13.

 

[Marty fox]

Well no, because the FP is doing the bidding of the beast that Christ will destroy when He returns, and Jesus will throw both of them into the LOF.

Only demons are cast into the lake of fire before the judgement day thus they are demonic beings over nations influencing them through their leaders

 

[Marty fox]

Well no, because the FP is doing the bidding of the beast that Christ will destroy when He returns, and Jesus will throw both of them into the LOF.

Read Daniel chapter 10 and you will see that demons are kings and princes over nations

 

[Earburner]

Context is everything. The Pharisees were falsely accusing Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub. He pointed out the obvious to them.
You're not only missing that Satan is not bound (by your own admission) so that he is unable to deceive the nations. You're also missing that Jesus did not cast Satan out of the world when He cast demons out of individuals - He cast Satan out of heaven and down to earth (expelled from heaven where by the Law he was able to accuse the brethren before God until Jesus died and rose again). The state prosecutor had no case against the accused anymore so there was no reason for him to appear in court in front of the judge, and so he was restricted to roam around on the earth where he had always roamed.

Jesus did not cast Satan out of the world. He cast Satan out of individuals. He would need to be more powerful than Satan in order to do that, and he was pointing out the obvious to the Pharisees, who had made themselves dumb & dumber through the hardness of their hearts, hurling stupid, ridiculous accusations in their pathetic ignorance, which was wrought in them by the hardness of their hearts, and in the process too dumb to realize what they were saying was the height of blasphemy.

If Jesus had cast Satan out of the world or bound him from doing anything in the world, why did Jesus cast Satan down to earth where he could go war against "the rest of the woman's seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 12:17) in the day that Satan was expelled from appearing before God to accuse the brethren ? Why does the scripture say, with regard to Satan being cast down to the earth, "Therefore rejoice, all of you heavens, and all of you that dwell in them. Woe to the citizens of the earth and of the sea! for the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time." (Revelation 12:1)?

Does casting demons out of a man because Jesus is stronger and has the power and authority to do so mean that He has bound Satan and his demons from any further activity in the world?

I never said that satan was cast out of the world! I agree with scripture, that he was cast out of Heaven and onto this planet. It is the place of his unending death (bottomless pit- grave, hell, destruction).

On the other hand, Jesus to this day, is still "spoiling his goods", which is every person who becomes converted and is born again, recieving God's Holy Spirit within them. Romans 8:8-9.

Therefore, we are that holy nation, a peculiar people who are saved OUT OF the nations.
It is the saved out of the nations that satan cannot re-enter and corrupt.
Though we in Spirit, are separated from the nations of the world, our flesh is still taking up space in the nations of the world.

So, outwardly, we also are subject to satan's manifestations of temptations and delusions, but NEVER within.
This is what Matthew 24:24 means.
It IS NOT possible to decieve the very elect, who are we who do HAVE the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.

I see the work of Christ in the world to be far greater than the parable in "context".

 

[Earburner]

1. The Bible accuses Satan quite correctly of deceiving the nations.

2. When the Bible states that Satan will be bound, the Bible's stated purpose for Satan's binding is so that he will no longer be able to deceive the nations.

3. You're inventing other purposes. The Bible gives one purpose and one purpose only for the binding of Satan.

I informed you earlier, that the book of Revelation is the whole mind of God, speaking in the past, present and future all at the same time, in symbolism.
Never should it be studied chronologically, unless in a specific vision, out of all of John's visions, it clearly reveals that it should be done so.
If you can't percieve that, then it's not by His Holy Spirit that you have an understanding, but rather by the heavy influence and persuasion of pharisaical commentary, through the religion of christianity. Zechariah 4:6, John 16:13.
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed. Not all the nations are decieved.
Those who have come out of the nations, and are converted through Christ, are that "holy nation" that cannot be decieved.
3. On the contrary. I am speaking truth about the parable of the "unclean spirit" . Every person who has come to Christ, and is born again, satan is bound by Christ's indwelling of them, so that satan may not ever re-enter into them again.

 

[Zao is life]

I informed you earlier

You can't inform anyone when you're not very informed yourself because you choose to ignore every New Testament verse which shows Satan as loose and not as bound.

I informed you earlier of exactly where your fallacy sets in. Yet you choose to remain misinformed, So this is getting no one anywhere.

 

[Zao is life]

Read Daniel chapter 10 and you will see that demons are kings and princes over nations

I read it but you ignore the revelation given to Daniel in chapter 7 of the meaning of beasts and horns. The Persian king was a beast in Daniel 7, not a demonic power without a human king running around in the world influenced by the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realms.

Those spiritual forces of wickedness cannot do anything without actual humans on earth (mostly unwittingly and unkowingly) doing their will and desire.

Your chicken is headless.

 

[Marty fox]

I read it but you ignore the revelation given to Daniel in chapter 7 of the meaning of beasts and horns. The Persian king was a beast in Daniel 7, not a demonic power without a human king running around in the world influenced by the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realms.

Those spiritual forces of wickedness cannot do anything without actual humans on earth (mostly unwittingly and unkowingly) doing their will and desire.

Your chicken is headless.

If you remember I said that they are demonic beings over nations influencing them through their leaders

 

[Zao is life]

QUOTE="Marty fox, post: 1091888, member: 11022"]If you remember I said that they are demonic beings over nations influencing them through their leaders[/QUOTE]

OK I was about to protest "but that's not what your posts seemed to imply" but then when I re-read them ..

Who I think that they are

Son of perdition Nero

The 10 kings demonic beings over nations

The sea beast a demonic being over Rome

The harlot Jerusalem

Only demons are cast into the lake of fire before the judgement day thus they are demonic beings over nations influencing them through their leaders

So because you're not thinking of the beast in terms of a kingdom ruled by a human king with 10 human kings under him and a false prophet building an image to him, I assumed you meant it was all demons, because the beast is going into the LOF.

So we only disagree then about the nature of the beast (now where'd I hear that expression before..).

You believe "the beast" = the demonic powers behind the humans. I believe the beast = the kingdom of the human kings, as well as their king.

I think my interpretation is more traditional. I've heard your interpretation of the beast before (come to think of it), but aIthough I know there are spiritual forces of wickedness behind the humans, the beast is a human kingdom with a satanic nature.

Either way (your understanding or mine), the nature of the beast is satanic.

 

[Marty fox]

QUOTE="Marty fox, post: 1091888, member: 11022"]If you remember I said that they are demonic beings over nations influencing them through their leaders

OK I was about to protest "but that's not what your posts seemed to imply" but then when I re-read them ..





So because you're not thinking of the beast in terms of a kingdom ruled by a human king with 10 human kings under him and a false prophet building an image to him, I assumed you meant it was all demons, because the beast is going into the LOF.

So we only disagree then about the nature of the beast (now where'd I hear that expression before..).

You believe "the beast" = the demonic powers behind the humans. I believe the beast = the kingdom of the human kings, as well as their king.

I think my interpretation is more traditional. I've heard your interpretation of the beast before (come to think of it), but aIthough I know there are spiritual forces of wickedness behind the humans, the beast is a human kingdom with a satanic nature.

Either way (your understanding or mine), the nature of the beast is satanic.[/QUOTE]

Thanks

Here's a few questions how can a person be

"8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction"?

Or "because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."?

Notice that the beast is call "it" above

Or how could a person be" The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.?

You also need to remember that people aren't cast into the lake of fire before the judgement that only happens to demons because they are already judged

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks

Here's a few questions how can a person be

"8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction"?

Or "because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."?

Notice that the beast is call "it" above

Or how could a person be" The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.?

You also need to remember that people aren't cast into the lake of fire before the judgement that only happens to demons because they are already judged

If the head of Syria was Damascus, and the head of Ephraim was Samaria (Isaiah 7:8-9), then the head of Judah/Judea was Jerusalem.

So even though the beast may be a Gentile beast, the best example we have yet of the kind of thing that the Revelation speaks about, is the fact that the kingdom of Judah/Judea was dealt a mortal blow to its head in in A.D70, yet it rose again suddenly out of the nations in 1948.

And in 1967 its mortal wound was partially healed.

And although the state which calls itself Israel is 100% as legitimate as any other state, it's nevertheless nothing more or less than the realization of the goals of the Zionist movement which was born in the late 1800's.

Yet many peoples including many Christians marvelled and continue to marvel, saying, "Look at what God is doing!".

It's easy to see how strong delusion is born.

It's also easy to see how a kingdom that was dealt a mortal blow to its head before John received the Revelation, and had ceased to exist by the time John received the Revelation, and yet still existed, can rise again from the bottomless pit once that pit has been opened (which it will be - we just don't know yet where the gates of hell are).

"It" (the beast) is a kingdom. "He" (the beast) is it's king (when he gets the seat, which Satan is going to give him).

 

[Earburner]

1. You can't inform anyone when you're not very informed yourself because you choose to ignore every New Testament verse which shows Satan as loose and not as bound.

2. I informed you earlier of exactly where your fallacy sets in. Yet you choose to remain misinformed, So this is getting no one anywhere.

1. I AGREE, satan has always been loose on this planet, but according to the Amillennial view. His being bound is for the duration of God's Age of Grace, whereby he can't enter or corrupt born again Christians, aka "the very elect".

The Gospel, who is Christ, HAS BEEN preached in all the world during the Age of God's Grace, which to my understanding is NOT a literal futuristic 1000 years to come, but rather has been going on since Pentecost, being symbolic of a very long time.
Jesus did NOT know of the time of when His return shall be. That is why He gave us His clue of HOW things shall be, near the end of it. Luke 18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
2. If there be any fallacy, it is the belief in a KoG on earth, AFTER the sudden and Glorious return of Jesus, IN flaming fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Hopefully, you are not one who is looking for a secret "rapture", because what I just said and quoted, IS that rapture.

But, if you think differently, then you must also falsley believe that those who take the MoB, will be on the earth, in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, looking for another(?) chance for salvation.
But, what does 2 Thessalonians 1 say?
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Marty fox]

If the head of Syria was Damascus, and the head of Ephraim was Samaria (Isaiah 7:8-9), then the head of Judah/Judea was Jerusalem.

So even though the beast may be a Gentile beast, the best example we have yet of the kind of thing that the Revelation speaks about, is the fact that the kingdom of Judah/Judea was dealt a mortal blow to its head in in A.D70, yet it rose again suddenly out of the nations in 1948.

And in 1967 its mortal wound was partially healed.

And although the state which calls itself Israel is 100% as legitimate as any other state, it's nevertheless nothing more or less than the realization of the goals of the Zionist movement which was born in the late 1800's.

Yet many peoples including many Christians marvelled and continue to marvel, saying, "Look at what God is doing!".

It's easy to see how strong delusion is born.

It's also easy to see how a kingdom that was dealt a mortal blow to its head before John received the Revelation, and had ceased to exist by the time John received the Revelation, and yet still existed, can rise again from the bottomless pit once that pit has been opened (which it will be - we just don't know yet where the gates of hell are).

"It" (the beast) is a kingdom. "He" (the beast) is it's king (when he gets the seat, which Satan is going to give him).

Abaddon or the destroyer the king from the abyss is not the beast he is satan the same destroyer who killed the first born sons in Egypt

There’s no proof that Revelation was written in or about 95AD I believe it was written in the mid 60,s of the first century

 

[Oseas]

Abaddon or the destroyer the king from the abyss is not the beast he is satan the same destroyer who killed the first born sons in Egypt

There’s no proof that Revelation was written in or about 95AD I believe it was written in the mid 60,s of the first century

Patmos was used as a place of banishment from the Roman Empire. According to a tradition preserved by Irenaeus, Eusebius, Jerome, and others, John's exile took place in AD 91 or 96,[2] in the fourteenth year of Domitian's reign.

To say Revelation was written in the mid 60,s of the first century it seems untrue and incoherent.

 

[Zao is life]

1. I AGREE, satan has always been loose on this planet, but according to the Amillennial view. His being bound is for the duration of God's Age of Grace, whereby he can't enter or corrupt born again Christians, aka "the very elect".

With respect to the binding of Satan, the New Testament and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are only concerned with his binding so that he is unable to deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years are finished.

In his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states,

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

The Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is regarding the coming binding of Satan in his ability to deceive the nations. It has nothing to do with the saints. The Lord's Revelation to His churches says nothing about Satan being bound in terms of his ability to deceive the saints. It's talking about the nations being deceived by him.

The A-mil position is not scriptural.

 

[Zao is life]

There’s no proof that Revelation was written in or about 95AD I believe it was written in the mid 60,s of the first century

Many scholars and textual critics disagree with you.

Abaddon or the destroyer the king from the abyss is not the beast he is satan the same destroyer who killed the first born sons in Egypt

I do believe that Abadddon the destroyer is indeed Satan, but he is not in the abyss yet with whatever is going to come out when the abyss is opened. I believe he will open the abyss with the key, which I believe will be given to him (Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 9:1-2 & 11), and he will open it from the outside, since he has not been bound in the abyss, and will not be bound in the abyss until after the beast & FP have been destroyed in the LOF.

It's obvious that we disagree, but it's important to me that you keep sharing, so that I can consider what you believe about it. I don't agree with what you're saying, but it's good to hear it and to keep an open mind.

 

[Zao is life]

1. I AGREE, satan has always been loose on this planet, but according to the Amillennial view. His being bound is for the duration of God's Age of Grace, whereby he can't enter or corrupt born again Christians, aka "the very elect".

The Gospel, who is Christ, HAS BEEN preached in all the world during the Age of God's Grace, which to my understanding is NOT a literal futuristic 1000 years to come, but rather has been going on since Pentecost, being symbolic of a very long time.
Jesus did NOT know of the time of when His return shall be. That is why He gave us His clue of HOW things shall be, near the end of it. Luke 18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
2. If there be any fallacy, it is the belief in a KoG on earth, AFTER the sudden and Glorious return of Jesus, IN flaming fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Hopefully, you are not one who is looking for a secret "rapture", because what I just said and quoted, IS that rapture.

But, if you think differently, then you must also falsley believe that those who take the MoB, will be on the earth, in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, looking for another(?) chance for salvation.
But, what does 2 Thessalonians 1 say?
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

A-mils and Pre-mils both agree that the description of fire coming down from heaven and destryong the rebellious nations at the close of the millennium in Revelation 20, is the same as what you quote above.

A-mils merely cut out an entire season from God's pre-ordained plan.