The harlot's deception of the nations

[Ferris Bueller]

She takes advantage of the political and economic system of the beast in order to enrich herself.

I suggest to you that she is herself a political and economic system, upheld by the very nations of the world that worship her (she sits on many waters). A worldly system of pride and power and wealth and excess and the worship of false gods born in and exemplified by ancient Babylon. Her doom awaits, for God has put it in the heart of the antichrist beast system to destroy her and the intoxicating power she holds over the earth.

 

[Zao is life]

I suggest to you that she is herself a political and economic system, upheld by the very nations of the world that worship her (she sits on many waters). A worldly system of pride and power and wealth and excess and the worship of false gods born in and exemplified by ancient Babylon. Her doom awaits, for God has put it in the heart of the antichrist beast system to destroy her and the intoxicating power she holds over the earth.

Well I'll keep that in mind too. It makes sense but the only problem I have with it is the word "harlot" because of the scriptural use of that word in every other prophetic book of the Bible. But what you say is very interesting.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well I'll keep that in mind too. It makes sense but the only problem I have with it is the word "harlot" because of the scriptural use of that word in every other prophetic book of the Bible.

I can appreciate your argument. But I think it's also understood from scripture that all of mankind is in a kind of broken, adulterous relationship with God. Paul speaks of being REconciled to God. Salvation is spoken about as the world being restored to it's former relationship with God. An intimate relationship that mankind had in the beginning with God but which mankind has strayed away from to be joined with other lovers, like an adulterous wife. That is the harlot I see in Revelation 17 and 18.

 

[Taken]

I can appreciate your argument. But I think it's also understood from scripture that all of mankind is in a kind of broken, adulterous relationship with God. Paul speaks of being REconciled to God. Salvation is spoken about as the world being restored to it's former relationship with God. An intimate relationship that mankind had in the beginning with God but which mankind has strayed away from to be joined with other lovers, like an adulterous wife. That is the harlot I see in Revelation 17 and 18.

Agree.
Harlot, female, wife, woman,
always just below the Man, male, husband, always just below the Lord God...

Thus the reverse;
Lord God...
Man, masculine
Woman, feminine

Lord God provides,
Male created, provides for the female
Female companion, cares for the children

Lord God provided LAND,
Male cares for the LAND.
Land is also referred to in the Feminine

Feminine reference in Revelations is LAND, Nations, and people thereof.
The Man, leader, (as Head)
The Land, what man Governs,
And the People drunk with the fornication of enticements of the "Head and land".
(Same thing Satan tried to TEMPT Jesus with, pretends ALL the LAND was Satans to GIVE, IF Jesus would relent unto Satan).

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and every single Christian has that truth regarding obscure passages in the Revelation and other prophetic books, though they're almost all disagreeing with one another. The body of Christ is schizophrenic in its understanding of the prophetic word of God.

Oh yes, I do agree! But still, there really is ONLY one truth about it, and it's NOT going to be the literalist perspective.

In Rev., we are dealling with whole eternal mind of God, who thinks in the past, present and future all at the same time.
Because we cannot do that, we need to discern correctly everything that is of NT scripture, and the ONLY way to do that, is to "lean not to our own understanding", and to humbly allow Him to "guide" us by His Holy Spirit through His word.

Never should we accept church doctrine(S), as the means to discern His words, but rather that His words are to discern church doctrine(S).

For example, if I have a casual, child like belief of what Hell is, I most likely will also believe that I am eternal, even without the Spirit of Christ.
But what does the scripture say?
Ans. Hell is the pit, the grave!
Only Christ, the "firstborn" from the dead, has conquered it, and only He has recieved Eternal life and immortality.

We, who are of faith in Christ... are still in waiting for that day! The day of our resurrection into the likeness of His immortality of New Life.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well I can't argue with any of the above. But the people here are not people in a church who we meet, get to know, and are be able to see how much of the Bible they read, what their attitude is to the scriptures, etc etc.

Of course not, but I've been posting here for 10 years and have had to produce a lot of scripture to point out the obvious. Most of the people that I've encountered posting here and that seemed to have a good understanding, have abandoned the site for other sites where the discourse is generally more profitable (or edifying and sane.)
I only post here because it's a public (and sort of christian) venue where I can drop a message under the unction of the Holy Spirit. Those things God shows me have a way of spreading around.
I've found that you can plant ideas in people's heads even when they disagree with you, and after a number of years those ideas firmly rooted in truth become accepted by those desiring truth.
My scriptural arguments are more designed for long term growth than short term satisfaction and if you want to see progress over the long term you have to stay in place and observe over the long term. That's the method of the natural sciences and my education focused on the sciences, not religion, the humanities, or liberal arts.
Sometimes I wish that I'd just gone to an arts school, but science was always my thing as a kid (I thought that you could find truth through science before I understood what science is.)
I understand that it isn't polite to make assumptions about complete and total strangers, but I also know from experience that if you assume people will understand what you're talking about just because you own a copy of the same book, that you'll be talking over their heads most of the time.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I haven't visited it in a long time, but I remember reading Ezekiel 40 onward and wondering to myself why the Jews didn't build it back according to Ezekiel's instructions.

Herod wasn't a Jew, but he built the 3rd temple (I haven't read why he did so, but he was definitely a politician. )

 

[Earburner]

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23)

And what is the will of the Father?
John 6[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So, as you can see, it is not complicated at all, but there are those (tares) who aspire through "religion" to make it complicated!

 

[Zao is life]

Oh yes, I do agree! But still, there really is ONLY one truth about it, and it's NOT going to be the literalist perspective.

In Rev., we are dealling with whole eternal mind of God, who thinks in the past, present and future all at the same time.
Because we cannot do that, we need to discern correctly everything that is of NT scripture, and the ONLY way to do that, is to "lean not to our own understanding", and to humbly allow Him to "guide" us by His Holy Spirit through His word.

Never should we accept church doctrine(S), as the means to discern His words, but rather that His words are to discern church doctrine(S).

For example, if I have a casual, child like belief of what Hell is, I most likely will also believe that I am eternal, even without the Spirit of Christ.
But what does the scripture say?
Ans. Hell is the pit, the grave!
Only Christ, the "firstborn" from the dead, has conquered it, and only He has recieved Eternal life and immortality.

We, who are of faith in Christ... are still in waiting for that day! The day of our resurrection into the likeness of His immortality of New Life.

We already have eternal life in Him, I believe. Spiritually, if His Spirit dwells in you, you are in Him, who is (eternal) Life. That's why Paul could say,

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

Ephesians 2:4-6 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace all of you are saved
And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Colossians 3:1-4 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."

 

[Zao is life]

Of course not, but I've been posting here for 10 years and have had to produce a lot of scripture to point out the obvious. Most of the people that I've encountered posting here and that seemed to have a good understanding, have abandoned the site for other sites where the discourse is generally more profitable (or edifying and sane.)
I only post here because it's a public (and sort of christian) venue where I can drop a message under the unction of the Holy Spirit. Those things God shows me have a way of spreading around.
I've found that you can plant ideas in people's heads even when they disagree with you, and after a number of years those ideas firmly rooted in truth become accepted by those desiring truth.
My scriptural arguments are more designed for long term growth than short term satisfaction and if you want to see progress over the long term you have to stay in place and observe over the long term. That's the method of the natural sciences and my education focused on the sciences, not religion, the humanities, or liberal arts.
Sometimes I wish that I'd just gone to an arts school, but science was always my thing as a kid (I thought that you could find truth through science before I understood what science is.)
I understand that it isn't polite to make assumptions about complete and total strangers, but I also know from experience that if you assume people will understand what you're talking about just because you own a copy of the same book, that you'll be talking over their heads most of the time.

I understand what you're saying, but Jesus told them not to call one another "Teacher, Teacher" because He knew that until the day we die, we will not stop learning. Sometimes people who are talking the truth about something in the scriptures may be talking over your head, because you believe they are wrong.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I understand what you're saying, but Jesus told them not to call one another "Teacher, Teacher" because He knew that until the day we die, we will not stop learning. Sometimes people who are talking the truth about something in the scriptures may be talking over your head, because you believe they are wrong.

I never assume that anyone is right or wrong including myself, but rather trust what God teaches me through His Spirit. I don't listen to teachers based upon the extent that they agree with me or not, but by discernment of their spirit, a handy and practical gift indeed.
I came to the realization decades ago that no one on the planet fully understands scripture, no one. Understanding changes as we mature and scripture tells us that God actually withholds our understanding of certain things when it's too much for us to bear. I'm quite convinced that most of us, by the time we experience "adulthood", would be driven to despair, depression, and possibly death if we recognized the full scope of our fallen nature and the depravity of our hearts.
The process of sanctification, recognizing and confessing sin in ourselves, is lifelong and a process of brokenness, not of victorious conquest as the immature believe. However in Christ and through His blood we do have the victory because He has overcome sin and death for us.
The joy in our victories is always fleeting. The joy in His forgiveness and love is more permanent and allows us to rest in His peace. He doesn't take His peace away. That's the world's job.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Jezebel was a type of the harlot and reappears in the book of the Revelation, but the harlot doesn't have to be a person. I do believe that the system of this world is indeed represented by Babylon, but the great whore is more likely to be a city, a political system, or religious institution, given that her influence reaches throughout the Earth. I know of one Cultic organization and secret society that meets the description, but I don't know if they are the only worldwide corrupting influence or just one of many.
I used to enjoy listening to one of the metro area pastors that had a radio show locally. He sometimes referred to NYC as Babylon on the Hudson and having grown up in its suburbs and spent most of my life working in the same area, I would chuckle in agreement because with its large Jewish orthodox population mingled among immigrants from everywhere, and the cities financial and media influences around the world, it would seem to fit the bill.
However, it would be hard to prove that NYC has had a worse effect on the world than Los Angeles and Hollywood, or other major cities in the world.
When I decided to abandon the community bulletin boards of America On Line, I was already thinking of it as Babylon on line and had come to see the world wide web as the new and electronic tower of Babel.
There have been world powers for as long as there have been empires, but ancient Babylon was dominant in its brief time. I'm inclined to believe that the dominant world power at any given time represents Babylon, but you have to ask yourself "if these are the last days, who is the dominant world power now?"
Globalization is definitely trending toward a single worldwide power structure, but who currently dominates that structure?
Christians in the US like to think of our nation as Christian or as Judeo-Christian, but our money doesn't say "In Jesus we Trust" and the god more representative of the "American Dream" as its popularly understood, resembles Ba'al Hamon or in the Greek, Mammonas, far more than our Lord Jesus the Christ. I don't think it's a coincidence that Free Masonry was strongly represented in our founding fathers and nearly every POTUS since then. Nor do I consider it coincidence that gold plays such an important role in Masonic rites, but then again, maybe I just like conspiracy theories a bit too much.

 

[Earburner]

We already have eternal life in Him, I believe. Spiritually, if His Spirit dwells in you, you are in Him, who is (eternal) Life. That's why Paul could say,

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

Ephesians 2:4-6 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace all of you are saved
And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Colossians 3:1-4 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."

So where did I say anything different, except that we are not yet in the likeness of His New Life of Immortality?

 

[Earburner]

We already have eternal life in Him, I believe. Spiritually, if His Spirit dwells in you, you are in Him, who is (eternal) Life. That's why Paul could say,

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

Ephesians 2:4-6 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace all of you are saved
And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Colossians 3:1-4 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."

Becareful, you just might find yourself believing in the truth of Amillennialsm.

 

[Earburner]

Remember, the KoG who is Jesus, was taken from the Jews and given to another nation.
No, its not the religion of Christianity, but rather to all who are born again of His Spirit.
1 Peter 2[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[Earburner]

I don't know much, but I know that it's not scriptural to say that Satan has been bound, because a number of New Testament verses say exactly the opposite

Satan has not been bound from anything "of this world". He openly declared to Jesus that all the kingdoms of this world are in his domain. In that he was correct, except for one thing. After Pentecost, he cannot re-enter Born Again Christians.
Before Peter recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, satan could enter him at anytime. But AFTER Pentecost, and the free Gift of the Holy Spirit was Given, satan cannot enter into them who are now the temple(s) of the Living God.
However, unsaved people are "of this world", therefore he can use them at will for his purposes .

 

[Zao is life]

Satan has not been bound from anything "of this world". He openly declared to Jesus that all the kingdoms of this world are in his domain. In that he was correct, except for one thing. After Pentecost, he cannot re-enter Born Again Christians.
Before Peter recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, satan could enter him at anytime. But AFTER Pentecost, and the free Gift of the Holy Spirit was Given, satan cannot enter into them who are now the temple(s) of the Living God.
However, unsaved people are "of this world", therefore he can use them at will for his purposes .

Yes and that's why he is still deceiving the nations. Day is coming when he will be bound and unable to deceive the nations anymore. He only gets bound when the beast and its false prophet have been destroyed. Before they are destroyed, he was giving the beast his seat, his power & great authority.

So unless the image & mark of the beast has come and gone, and the return of Christ when He destroys the beast and his power, Satan is not bound. Oh yes but I forgot, Amillennialists will simply say he will be released again for his final short season, as the close of Revelation 20 says Actually that should be a

 

[Zao is life]

So where did I say anything different, except that we are not yet in the likeness of His New Life of Immortality?

I obviously misunderstood you because you said,
Quote
Only Christ, the "firstborn" from the dead, has conquered it, and only He has received Eternal life and immortality.

We, who are of faith in Christ... are still in waiting for that day! The day of our resurrection into the likeness of His immortality of New Life.Unquote

I never read the "and immortality" part with the rest. Apologies.

 

[Zao is life]

Remember, the KoG who is Jesus, was taken from the Jews and given to another nation.
No, its not the religion of Christianity, but rather to all who are born again of His Spirit.
1 Peter 2[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now [Greek: nyn, "of this present time] we see not yet all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8)

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now [Greek nyn, "of present time"] is my kingdom not from here." (John 18:36).

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20).

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." (John 14:20-21).

Yes, the Kingdom of God is Christ, but now His Kingdom is not of this world because He only reigns in the hearts and minds of those who

A. Believe in Him; and
B. Submit to Him.

He does not reign in the hearts and minds of those who

A. Believe in Him; and
B. Do not submit to Him:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, all of you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23).

Nor does He reign in the hearts and minds of those who

A. Do not believe in Him; and
B. Do not submit to Him (i.e all those controlling the political, social and economic forces of this world).

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 11:15).

You see, God His Father promised Him,

Psalm 2
7 "I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

1 Corinthians 15
25 "for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy made to cease is death."

Why?

Because God's purpose is still the same, and has never changed, and will not change. Adam's sin would have thwarted God's purpose, but the son of Man, the last Adam, is the One who puts all things back into their rightful place:

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth." (Genesis 1:26).

Psalm 8
3 "When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:
7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field;
8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."

But for now (Greek nyn, "of present time") we do not yet see all things placed under Him.

The son of Man will reign, not like He is reigning only in the hearts and minds of those who believe in Him and submit to Him now, but it will be seen.

After that time, He will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father:

Note the Greek word eita translated as "then" - because it tells you that there is a season for each stage: Read the passage below this also:

1 Corinthians 15
22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
24 then [Greek: eita] is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet."

Note that Greek word eita translated as "then" - because it tells you that there is a season for each stage:

Mark 4
26 "And He said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knows not how.
28 For the earth brings out fruit of itself, first the blade, then [Greek: eita] the ear, after that [Greek: eita] the full grain in the ear.
29 But when the fruit has been brought out, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."

First the blade, then [Greek: eita] the ear, after that [Greek: eita] the full grain in the ear. There is a season for each stage.

22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
24 then [Greek: eita] is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet."

But now (Greek: nyn, "of this present time) we see not yet all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8)

- and that's because Satan is deceiving the nations and the same dragon will give the beast his seat, his power and great authority, and the nations are now [Gree nyn, "of present time"] ruled by those who do not believe and obey Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Yes and that's why he is still deceiving the nations. Day is coming when he will be bound and unable to deceive the nations anymore. He only gets bound when the beast and its false prophet have been destroyed. Before they are destroyed, he was giving the beast his seat, his power & great authority.

So unless the image & mark of the beast has come and gone, and the return of Christ when He destroys the beast and his power, Satan is not bound.

You are not hearing what I said.
Satan is indeed bound!
Spiritually, he is bound from entering into any person who has been born again! Why? The Spirit of God is within them.
Hear the parable of "the unclean spirit".
Luke 11[24] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
[25] And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
[26] Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
> Such is the case for people who hear the Gospel message and come to God in faith of Jesus, but never ask for the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. They were made clean and garnished, but they never made their
"calling" and "election" sure (sealed).
2 Peter 1[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence [follow through] to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9.

You might also read about the "strong man", Mark 3:27-29.
All of such, since Pentecost, who were called, but did not follow through with Christ, to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit of God, neglected and ignored the day of THEIR own "visitation".
They remain as "tares", being "condemned already". John 3:18.

When reading and studying Revelation, be sure to fully understand all of the NT scriptures "by HIS spirit", and not by any other way. Zechariah 4:6, John 16:13