The "HE" of Daniel 9:27

[veteran]

Veteran, you continue to look for an end time temple so I have to ask you; show me where in the word of God does He call for a finial temple in this age? I know you will turn to 2Th 2:4 but the temple referenced there can refer to the hearts of the believer or the assembly of believers; after all verse 3 calls for a great falling away and if they fall away they have turned to another faith or god. Yahweh would take great affront if He were replaced in the hearts of believers. We simply do not understand the full meaning of this verse.

Because of the rejection of Yeshua, He brought forth the Roman army to destroy the existing temple of Yahweh and He told the Jews:

Behold, your house is left to you desolate. (39) For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Mat 23:38-39 MKJV

I have to ask you; when will the Jews call forth these words? Isn’t it at the very end? So where is the case for another temple before the return of Yeshua? The temple of Yeshua today is in the hearts of His assembly the church. Yeshua was the finial sacrifice for sin and if that is the case would Yahweh recognize another temple and if He does not recognize such those in Jerusalem might as well worship in a barn!

For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens, (27) who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself. Heb 7:26-27 MKJV

Our High Priest is Yeshua who sets at the right hand of the Father and will do so until it is time for His return.

Regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple; you continue to ignore Luke 21:20 which is a parallel verse to Mat 24:15

And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; Luk 21:20 YLT

Any uncircumcised entering into the inter part of the temple was considered a desolation by the Jews and any uncircumcised army entering Jerusalem was also considered a desolation.

So all of this being said show me how Yahweh would recognize another temple and if He does not recognize it what good is it?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I just showed you, Matt.24 and Mark 13...


Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(KJV)

I mean come on, use your common sense. Our Lord Jesus directly pointed to the idea of the Temple in Jerusalem-Judea with that.

It didn't happen in 70 A.D., because the Dan.11 historical pattern for the abomination was set by Antiochus IV back 170 B.C, requiring that a Temple be standing there, not the Dome of the Rock, but an Israelite Temple, an abomination idol in the "holy place". We know the Romans did not accomplish that because the 2nd Temple caught fire inside and burned before the Romans could get possession of it (per the Jewish historian Josephus).

And thus orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have the materials ready to build a NEW Temple there today. They've even cut the cornerstones and have tried to place them upon the Temple Mount for several years now! The Israeli government won't let them do that yet, and I think we all know why.

 

[Rex]

teleiosis
I'm not insulted I'm humored by your ability to ignore Jesus reference to His body as a temple, the disciples understanding this as well as Pauls letters.
All because your premise only see's a building, its equally noted that those who's condemned and ridiculed Jesus only understood a temple building as well. So who is it that can't see the forest for the trees? Jesus and His temple or the critics and their temple?
Matthew 26:61
Matthew 27:40

It would seem that Jesus is guilty of the same offense you accuse Saint of.
Matthew 26:61
Matthew 27:40

John 2:16-21
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them;[c] and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.


The tearing of the veil what did that mean? That the Holy of Holies was opened. God now has a new sanctuary.
Just as Jesus was the statuary of the HS. God will never dwell in the temple again.
Jesus is the Holy of Holies that's your error in looking for a building that 9:24-27 is incomplete. You just like the others desire a temple building neglecting the clear teaching that God now dwells with-in men. So in that 2 Thes is not speaking of a building but rather with-in the flesh satan will take his seat.

2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.

Paul used naos the dwelling place of God, now how will it be that the veil was torn will God ever sanctify a temple built "building" when by the Lord Jesus a new temple is found with-in men. To teach God will sanctify such a place is to deny the cross as well as Jesus. The presents of God has moved out of the building and He now sits in the temples of flesh threw His HS.

1 Cor 3:16
16 Do you not know that you are the temple 3485 of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Cor 6:19
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple 3485 of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
2 Cor 6:16
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[b] are the temple 3485 of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”[c]

The new temple is here and has been being built for years, you don't see it?
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple 3485 in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[teleiosis]

Rex: talking to you about a physical Temple is like trying to convince a Preterist that Jesus didn't "confirm" a limited-time, seven-year covenant 2000 years ago.

It's a matter of belief to you and you ignore all the evidence I show you and you just go to your myopic figurative use without any connection of context and you cement your error in concrete.


In addition, let me say I see the point you're trying to make, but I fail to see why you cannot see the point I'm making.

 

[veteran]

teleiosis
I'm not insulted I'm humored by your ability to ignore Jesus reference to His body as a temple, the disciples understanding this as well as Pauls letters.
All because your premise only see's a building, its equally noted that those who's condemned and ridiculed Jesus only understood a temple building as well. So who is it that can't see the forest for the trees? Jesus and His temple or the critics and their temple?
Matthew 26:61
Matthew 27:40

What kind of craziness is that? When Jesus warned that when those in Jeruslaem SEE the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place", and get out of Judea, that's about a spiritual temple only???

The deeper your denial goes about Jesus pointing to a physical, literal, standing Temple in Jerusalem, the crazier your words sound.

 

[teleiosis]

Finally, I reject wholly any notion that 2Th 2:4 is talking about a figurative Temple inside of each of us. The proof is in the reading: it involves a man in a Temple - not some spirit inside of us.

 

[veteran]

Finally, I reject wholly any notion that 2Th 2:4 is talking about a figurative Temple inside of each of us. The proof is in the reading: it involves a man in a Temple - not some spirit inside of us.

And you are very correct, because the spiritual temple which represents the foundation and body of Christ cannot ever be corrupted by an idol abomination. Those who turn away from Christ are simply 'cut off' from that spiritual temple the Apostles spoke of.

Yet there's Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 specifically warning about a false one coming to sit in the temple and play God Himself, which makes it certain, that he was talking about a literal physical temple in Jerusalem, and NOT the spiritual temple idea.

 

[Rex]

Rex: talking to you about a physical Temple is like trying to convince a Preterist that Jesus didn't "confirm" a limited-time, seven-year covenant 2000 years ago.

It's a matter of belief to you and you ignore all the evidence I show you and you just go to your myopic figurative use without any connection of context and you cement your error in concrete.

The presents of God "Naos" left the temple at Jesus death "the torn veil" and your teaching and believing a new temple with naos will be built 2 thes 2:4 naos temple, Undoing and contradicting God and the salvation of His Son---> ending such a temple and its priest hood "read Hebrews" will now be resurrected in the future for mr bad guy, that's just a huge denial and bordering on being blasphemous.

And you are very correct, because the spiritual temple which represents the foundation and body of Christ cannot ever be corrupted by an idol abomination. Those who turn away from Christ are simply 'cut off' from that spiritual temple the Apostles spoke of.

Tell that to Judas the son of perdition as its said in your KJ bible. Where else is the son of perdition spoken of or refered to? Jesus speaking of Judas.

2 Thes
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[teleiosis]

Settle down; you're about to lose all sensibility Rex.

Don't charge me with blasphemy over eschatology interpretation. Being literal is not blasphemy. You can be figurative and twist plain meaning all you want and not be guilty of blasphemy. So don't charge me when I have committed no such thing.

My only "crime" is not seeing things as you do. And I will continue to reject your "sight."

Meanwhile, you scoff that any literal fulfillment is possible... who then makes light of Bible prophecy?

 

[veteran]

The presents of God "Naos" left the temple at Jesus death "the torn veil" and your teaching and believing a new temple with naos will be built 2 thes 2:4 naos temple, Undoing and contradicting God and the salvation of His Son---> ending such a temple and its priest hood "read Hebrews" will now be resurrected in the future for mr bad guy, that's just a huge denial and bordering on being blasphemous.



Tell that to Judas the son of perdition as its said in your KJ bible. Where else is the son of perdition spoken of or refered to? Jesus speaking of Judas.

2 Thes
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Just how far away from the subject do you think you can go?

In answer, Judas was ALREADY DEAD when Apostle Paul gave the 2 Thess.2:3-4 prophecy about a future coming of the "son of perdition"! And in John 6:70, Jesus said Judas Iscariot "is a devil". So the "son of perdition" title is linked... to the devil himself.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bob, In your reply you gave some words about the words used for temple however you didn't provide a reference. There can be more than one son of perdition. Obviously, when one is dead and another future aspect is spoken of, you can't go back in time and saying it was fulfilled by Judas. It's just not logical.

 

[Rex]

Just how far away from the subject do you think you can go?

In answer, Judas was ALREADY DEAD when Apostle Paul gave the 2 Thess.2:3-4 prophecy about a future coming of the "son of perdition"! And in John 6:70, Jesus said Judas Iscariot "is a devil". So the "son of perdition" title is linked... to the devil himself.

Not to mention he was with Jesus and the disciples the whole time as well.
He came from with-in the inter group from with-in the disciples. Does that ring a bell, sitting in the temple of God, 12 disiples representing 12 brothers / tribes and from with-in one satan took his seat.

Jesus may have been aware of who was the imposter was but its clear the disciples didn't

Your 3rd temple building is a pipe dream or a clever plot of deception simply because God will never grace it as a neos temple as described in 2 thes. Nor will He honor the sacrifices of lambs and goats HOW COULD HE? It flies in the face of Jesus and salvation itself.

I could care less that some Jews are going to rebuild a temple ITS OF NO VALUE in the eyes of God.

 

[teleiosis]

Oh really?

First of all, it need not be "graced" in 2Th 2:4 for the Jews to build it.
Secondly, you negate prophecy in Eze 43:2 in which God does "grace" a third Temple.

Going back to chapters 40-42 - notice Ezekiel talks about a "man" measuring the Temple. John was told to measure a Temple built in the one 'seven' in Rev 11:1, but we never get an account of that in the NT - possibly because it's already been given? Hmmm?

 

[veteran]

Your 3rd temple building is a pipe dream or a clever plot of deception simply because God will never grace it as a neos temple as described in 2 thes. Nor will He honor the sacrifices of lambs and goats HOW COULD HE? It flies in the face of Jesus and salvation its self.

I could care less that some Jews are going to rebuild a temple ITS OF NO VALUE in the eyes of God.

And that's what you fail to understand.

God is NOT going to recognize the NEW temple the orthodox Jews will build in Jerusalem in our near future. Afterall, they STILL refuse Christ Jesus as Messiah and intend to start up Old Covenant worship and animal sacrifices with it again!

Yet it will be built anyway to fulll the abomination of desolation prophecy for the end, and then it will be DESTROYED by Christ's coming when He comes to destroy the false one that is to sit in it playing God.

 

[Rex]

Oh really?

First of all, it need not be "graced" in 2Th 2:4 for the Jews to build it.
Secondly, you negate prophecy in Eze 43:2 in which God does "grace" a third Temple.

Going back to chapters 40-42 - notice Ezekiel talks about a "man" measuring the Temple. John was told to measure a Temple built in the one 'seven' in Rev 11:1, but we never get an account of that in the NT - possibly because it's already been given? Hmmm?

Eze 43:2
Read it, it describes all the implements of the Leviticl system as well as sacrifices, now read Hebrews below and tell me God is going to re-institute the old Levitical system. Or that the Father or Jesus would ever honor it "grace it" as a naos temple. It's crazy to teach and believe God will honor a temple built my men in this age, complete with sacrificial offerings. Now I can see men today building a hieron temple and implementing the old priest hood and sacrifices but God will never be their in so much as it would be a naos temple. But thats not what 2 Thes says it says naos.

20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever[d]
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),[e]

22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

Naos

. 1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

 

[teleiosis]

Eze 43:2
Read it, it describes all the implements of the Leviticl system as well as sacrifices,

Actually, any sane person taking a sober approach would have to agree with the overwhelming consensus among Bible scholars of all sorts, denominations, and sects that the Temple Ezekiel described is unlike any that has come before and is therefore: the third Temple - so to say that it relates wholly to the past is without merit, or at best, devoid of any semblance of logical thinking.

To say Ezekiel doesn't pertain to the future is foolishness.

 

[veteran]

Man, what a bunch word play, just on the Greek word 'naos' for "temple" in 2 Thess.2:4!


Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(KJV)

Acts 21:28
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
(KJV)

Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(KJV)

Heb 9:25
25 Nor yet that he should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
(KJV)


It's not difficult to understand that Jesus was specifically pointing to inside the Temple in Jerusalem with His warning about the abominaton of desolation.

Actually, any sane person taking a sober approach would have to agree with the overwhelming consensus among Bible scholars of all sorts, denominations, and sects that the Temple Ezekiel described is unlike any that has come before and is therefore: the third Temple - so to say that it relates wholly to the past is without merit, or at best, devoid of any semblance of logical thinking.

To say Ezekiel doesn't pertain to the future is foolishness.

Pretty much agreed, except... that Ezekiel's temple will actually be a 4th temple in Jerusalem. The temple in Jerusalem the orthodox Jews plan to build today will the be the 3rd (I'm not counting Herod's remodeling of the 2nd temple).

 

[Rex]

Man, what a bunch word play, just on the Greek word 'naos' for "temple" in 2 Thess.2:4!

Thats to bad because its very important, when Solomon built the first temple it was not Naos the dwelling place of God until the ark the mercy seat was brought in. I gave plenty of scripture that says the dwelling place, the naos temple of God is now in the flesh of men born of the Spirit. The temple is nothing but a building unless God enters it. In the same way a man is of the dust unless the Spirit of God enters in and he becomes a man of Spirit born from above.

2 Chr 5
11 And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), 12 and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets— 13 indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying:

“For He is good,
For His mercy endures forever,”[b]

that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud, 14 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

So you see teleiosis it has little to do with Jews building a temple and everything to do with God honoring it

Oh really?

First of all, it need not be "graced" in 2Th 2:4 for the Jews to build it.

 

[veteran]

Thats to bad because its very important, when Solomon built the first temple it was not Naos the dwelling place of God until the ark the mercy seat was brought in. I gave plenty of scripture that says the dwelling place, the naos temple of God is now in the flesh of men born of the Spirit. The temple is nothing but a building unless God enters it. In the same way a man is of the dust unless the Spirit of God enters in and he becomes a man of Spirit born from above.

2 Chr 5
11 And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), 12 and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets— 13 indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying:

“For He is good,
For His mercy endures forever,”[b]

that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud, 14 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

None of that reverses the literal temple in Jerusalem our Lord Jesus was pointing to about the 'abomination of desolation' prophecy.

Look up the group of orthodox Jews in Israel today at http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

They are preparing to do this right before our very eyes, and you're not up on the curb about it.

 

[Rex]

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as If nothing ever happened.
Winston Churchhill

None of that reverses the literal temple in Jerusalem our Lord Jesus was pointing to about the 'abomination of desolation' prophecy.

Look up the group of orthodox Jews in Israel today at http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

They are preparing to do this right before our very eyes, and you're not up on the curb about it.

Matthew 23 the last two verses addresses everything you present.
In the same order the desolation, as well as the futility of the Jews re-instituting the Levitical system.

38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

 

[veteran]

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as If nothing ever happened.
Winston Churchhill



Matthew 23 the last two verses addresses everything you present.
In the same order the desolation, as well as the futility of the Jews re-instituting the Levitical system.

38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Nah, I believe it was Retrobyter that also tried that Matt.23 ploy.

What Christ said to the Jews who refused Him there does not negate the Olivet prophecy He gave in Matt.24 about the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel in the "holy place", a temple in Jerusalem.