The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[Brakelite]

Nice smokescreen. Now let's get down to FACTS!

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Exact same Greek word! And exact same Greek word in John 3:16. Don't you believe in EVERLASTING life?

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That was a pathetic smokescreen, more like a thin vapour, and I can see through it quite readily.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not once did you actually address anything I said. I don't want sermons and I don't need your threats of fire and brimstone to deter me from sin...I have Calvary for that. His love is sufficient to keep me from sin.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments".

You are no more honest than Grail. Ignore the fact that the scriptures you quote don't actually say what you want them to say. You are just firing blanks.

I and others have give you people the scriptures that defeats anything you have to offer.

 

[Grailhunter]

I find it interesting that you resort to strawmen to bolster your argument. Nowhere did I suggest there is no hell... Just not the hell you are so desperate to promote.
As to your contention that the sum total of those scriptures mean something different than their individual parts present, is totally illogical. If they were all saying the same thing, fine. But they aren't. Would you like a list of all the scriptures that deal with annihilation of the wicked? What will you do with that, consider they outnumber your contribution 4 to 1?

That is the point here you people consider all scripture strawman.

And annihilation and destroy? No longer in this world and confined to a fiery furnace of agony for eternity!....that can easily fit the definition of annihilate and destroy along with all the other specific scriptures that define the eternal fiery Hell. You are not fighting me you are fighting and denying the Word of God and thereby God Himself....The Devil applauds you!

 

[charity]

'The soul that sinneth, it shall die:... '
' ... all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;'
(Ezekiel18:4 & 20; Rom 3:23 ESV)

Hello @St. SteVen,

The whole debate about hell and eternal conscious punishment is a waste of time and effort: if you acknowledge the fact that the soul (or the whole person energised by life) is NOT immortal.

Hell is the grave or the place of the dead. The testimony of Scripture is that there is no consciousness in death. The 'breath of life', ('spirit', or 'life)' of all mankind goes back to God Who gave it. The life of the believer is hid with Christ in God, awaiting the resurrection from the dead: God reckons all such to be merely asleep in Christ, for they have the glorious hope of resurrection life assured them; Not so the unbeliever, who is reckoned dead even while he lives.

* What is death but the absence of life.

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

'For as the Father raiseth up the dead,
and quickeneth them;
even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.'
(Joh 5:21)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jack]

So? What you are missing is that nowhere in those texts does it mention everlasting punishing. Eternal death without a resurrection... That is the second death... Is an eternal punishment.
If God deems it necessary to punish sinners with pain and suffering for ever, then they are alive right? They have eternal life. Theoretically. Just at a different address to yourself... Hopefully. But still aware, conscious, with the ability to think, communicate, feel pain and suffer, theoretically. That is the very definition of life, and it is no different to the life granted by grace to the redeemed, except in the experience being received. But life nevertheless. So. Before you can convince me that such is the case for sinners, prove to me from scripture that God gives sinners eternal life, or that He ever intended for sinners to live forever... Anywhere. I suggest you start with Genesis 3:22-24.

While we are discussing eternal suffering and pain, perhaps you would like to explain to us all how justice is met when the punishing never stops? To me, of the punishment never stops, them justice is never fulfilled. Ever. Yet God is a God of justice... And mercy. And love. Where are any of those godly attributes... Even divine attributes... In eternal torment? What does God do with those attributes when He theoretically consigns sinners to eternal torment? Who is this heartless loveless merciless tyrannical god you worship and admire? It isn't the same God who died in your place. We are told in scripture that the wages of sin is death. Not eternal torment.
We are told in scripture that Jesus was the propitiation for our sin... That is, He took the punishment that we deserve.
What was the punishment that Jesus suffered in our place?

I'm so sorry you don't believe in eternal life!

 

[Jack]

That was a pathetic smokescreen, more like a thin vapour, and I can see through it quite readily.

Which part isn't FACT? It's all FACT!

 

[Jack]

Not once did you actually address anything I said. I don't want sermons and I don't need your threats of fire and brimstone to deter me from sin...I have Calvary for that. His love is sufficient to keep me from sin.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments".

You are no more honest than Grail. Ignore the fact that the scriptures you quote don't actually say what you want them to say. You are just firing blanks.

Everlasting punishment, furnace of fire, Hell fire, Lake of Fire, unquenchable fire, tormented day and night forever and ever, all NT!

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell! Satan loves it when his messengers convince people that there is no eternal Hell fire!

 

[charity]

Everlasting punishment, furnace of fire, Hell fire, Lake of Fire, unquenchable fire, tormented day and night forever and ever, all NT!

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell! Satan loves it when his messengers convince people that there is no eternal Hell fire!

Hello @Jack,

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who speaks of hell, in the New Testament, and He is referring to end time judgment, and the fires of Gehenna (translated:- Hell) which will be constantly burning at that time in the valley of Hinnom. (e.g., Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; !0:28; Matt. 10:28; 11:23; 18:9; 23:33 ). A place of destruction by fire following sentencing before the throne of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jack]

Not once did you actually address anything I said.

I presented FACTS!

I don't want sermons and I don't need your threats of fire and brimstone to deter me from sin...I have Calvary for that. His love is sufficient to keep me from sin.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments".

I quote Jesus. They are His 'threats'.

Matthew 5
Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

You are no more honest than Grail. Ignore the fact that the scriptures you quote don't actually say what you want them to say. You are just firing blanks.

You're just filled with irony!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'

Couldn't be any clearer!

 

[Jack]

Hello @Jack,

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who speaks of hell, in the New Testament, and He is referring to end time judgment, and the fires of Gehenna (translated:- Hell) which will be constantly burning at that time in the valley of Hinnom. (e.g., Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; !0:28; Matt. 10:28; 11:23; 18:9; 23:33 ). A place of destruction by fire following sentencing before the throne of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful post, Chris.
Have a blessed Sunday.

The whole debate about hell and eternal conscious punishment is a waste of time and effort: if you acknowledge the fact that the soul (or the whole person energised by life) is NOT immortal.

Yes, only God is immortal, but... we call it "the afterlife" for good reason.

Hell is the grave or the place of the dead. The testimony of Scripture is that there is no consciousness in death.

Unless you have more than Ecclesiastes chapter nine verse 5, the idea doesn't hold up.

If we believe in unconscious nonexistence after physical death, it comes with some baggage. (see verse 5 below)
Will the dead also "have no further reward"? Not sure about you, but I want my rewards in heaven. - LOL
And, will even our name be forgotten? As in, blotted out of the book of life? Say it's not so.
The last phrase in verse six tells us that this only refers to "anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

The 'breath of life', ('spirit', or 'life)' of all mankind goes back to God Who gave it.

Agree.

The life of the believer is hid with Christ in God, awaiting the resurrection from the dead: God reckons all such to be merely asleep in Christ, for they have the glorious hope of resurrection life assured them;

Agree, but I view "asleep" as physical death. They appear to be asleep to us here. RIP

Not so the unbeliever, who is reckoned dead even while he lives.

Fortunately, Christ has already paid the death penalty for all in his atonement.
It was a complete work, not limited to the Elect.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

* What is death but the absence of life.

In my view there are two kinds of each,
which causes confusion in Bible understanding.
1) Physical life and spiritual life
2) Physical death and spiritual death

We are born physically alive but spiritually dead.
Eventually we will be physically dead.
And as you say, the soul returns to the giver.

We may have in this life been drawn to God by his Spirit.
Which means we would be spiritually alive at physical death.
Or we may receive spiritual life upon meeting God for the first time.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[Jack]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful post, Chris.
Have a blessed Sunday.

Yes, only God is immortal, but... we call it "the afterlife" for good reason.

Unless you have more than Ecclesiastes chapter nine verse 5, the idea doesn't hold up.

If we believe in unconscious nonexistence after physical death, it comes with some baggage. (see verse 5 below)
Will the dead also "have no further reward"? Not sure about you, but I want my rewards in heaven. - LOL
And, will even our name be forgotten? As in, blotted out of the book of life? Say it's not so.
The last phrase in verse six tells us that this only refers to "anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Agree.

Agree, but I view "asleep" as physical death. They appear to be asleep to us here. RIP

Fortunately, Christ has already paid the death penalty for all in his atonement.
It was a complete work, not limited to the Elect.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In my view there are two kinds of each,
which causes confusion in Bible understanding.
1) Physical life and spiritual life
2) Physical death and spiritual death

We are born physically alive but spiritually dead.
Eventually we will be physically dead.
And as you say, the soul returns to the giver.

We may have in this life been drawn to God by his Spirit.
Which means we would be spiritually alive at physical death.
Or we may receive spiritual life upon meeting God for the first time.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

The promises of salvation are VERY conditional!

Mk 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED!

 

[CadyandZoe]

He died and was quite alive in the fire, and TORMENTED!

No Scripture?

Don't miss the point. The rich man was in Hades, which will be destroyed.

Revelation 20:14. Death and Hades are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No He does not. He says God is able.

Whether he does or not is beside the point. According to Jesus, that is the place where a man is destroyed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You did not even get close.
You have no idea!
I know your kind.
You live by desires and want to impose your desires on Christ and the Bible.
Your kind could care less what the Bible says....Your word is the only thing that is important to you.
So how did you get involved with this guy that brainwashed you?
What sin is he holding over you?

Faith is not the enemy of Reason. Fantasy is the enemy of reason. This post is shear fantasy. Am I going to report you? No. I am a man and men have big shoulders.

 

[Keiw]

Same being, "the First and the Last" Who was "dead" and came to life.

You don't quote "bible". You spew JW opinions! lol

You need to pray

 

[Jack]

Don't miss the point. The rich man was in Hades, which will be destroyed.

Revelation 20:14. Death and Hades are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

You're making that up!

 

[Jack]

Whether he does or not is beside the point. According to Jesus, that is the place where a man is destroyed.

No Bible quotes? Of course not!

 

[Jack]

You need to pray

I'm not the one butchering our Bible with opinions.

 

[Grailhunter]

Faith is not the enemy of Reason. Fantasy is the enemy of reason. This post is shear fantasy. Am I going to report you? No. I am a man and men have big shoulders.

You were living a fantasy ya know to each their own, but what you got going between your ears can harm other people