The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

[Richard_oti]

Did you not stop to think if there was indeed a "body" of Moses, that he was indeed dead?

Yet:

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of YHVH died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of YHVH. 6 And he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7 And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Luk 9:30 And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Elijah;

 

[Dcopymope]

Did you not stop to think if there was indeed a "body" of Moses, that he was indeed dead? And if he was indeed dead, then how could he be alive if the resurrection of the dead has not happened? And how could he die a second time since the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem, which contradicts that those who partake in the resurrection of the just do not die again? Do not be stupid, for just as Elijah was said to come before the first coming of Jesus Christ, and he didn't, but rather, that prophecy was speaking of John the Baptist, so it will be in the time right before the second coming, we will receive two prophets from among our generation.

Just because he was dead before doesn't have to mean he is dead now, anymore than the dead that rose out of the grave the moment Jesus died on the cross.

(Matthew 27:50-53) "¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. {51} And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; {52} And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, {53} And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Yet:

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of YHVH died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of YHVH. 6 And he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7 And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Luk 9:30 And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Elijah;

The thing that people overlook about his burial is that it clearly says God himself was the one who buried him, yet it can't tell us exactly where. I don't recall God doing this for anyone else in the Bible, and for all we know, his burial was only temporary, as plainly shown with the transfiguration. God obviously had other plans for Moses seeing he took this upon himself. This scripture may also have something to do with this:

(Jude 1:9) "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

.....hmmmm..

 

[christiang]

Just because he was dead before doesn't have to mean he is dead now, anymore than the dead that rose out of the grave the moment Jesus died on the cross.





The thing that people overlook about his burial is that it clearly says God himself was the one who buried him, yet it can't tell us exactly where. I don't recall God doing this for anyone else in the Bible, and for all we know, his burial was only temporary, as plainly shown with the transfiguration. God obviously had other plans for Moses seeing he took this upon himself. This scripture may also have something to do with this:

.....hmmmm..

-Rolling my eyes-

 

[101G]

Just because he was dead before doesn't have to mean he is dead now, anymore than the dead that rose out of the grave the moment Jesus died on the cross.





The thing that people overlook about his burial is that it clearly says God himself was the one who buried him, yet it can't tell us exactly where. I don't recall God doing this for anyone else in the Bible, and for all we know, his burial was only temporary, as plainly shown with the transfiguration. God obviously had other plans for Moses seeing he took this upon himself. This scripture may also have something to do with this:

.....hmmmm..

you are correct. the dispute was the death, even today someone have to be declared legally dead by a court if there is no body found. but before now, it was the proof of death by the dead body. which then, in Moses cases, no one could produce his body.

and two, this was a vision that the disciple saw on the mountain top. scripture, Matthew 17:9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead".

Peace in Christ Jesus.

 

[Richard_oti]

The thing that people overlook about his burial is that it clearly says God himself was the one who buried him, yet it can't tell us exactly where. I don't recall God doing this for anyone else in the Bible, and for all we know, his burial was only temporary, as plainly shown with the transfiguration. God obviously had other plans for Moses seeing he took this upon himself.

Indubitably. Moses is clearly accounted as having died, there was dispute over the body, and clearly seen at the transfiguration. Though, I must question how they would have known it was "Moses and Eliyah".

I do leave open that at / in the transfiguration, it was not a body of "flesh".

 

[bbyrd009]

there was dispute over the body

imo this seems to be assumed that that was after he had died, but i see no reason to not allow that "when he was alive" or "during his lifetime" is what was really meant. Moses was absent from the body after he died, so imo that passage is misinterpreted. We put meaning on physical death, and have closure rituals surrounding it, not God, to whom actual bodies are strictly vessels imo

(Jude 1:9) "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

yet no one can find the OT account of this anywhere, right. hmm

 

[Helen]

(Jude 1:9) "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

yet no one can find the OT account of this anywhere, right. hmm

Which proves that there was much written that we have never known about.

Why a dispute about who could have access to the body of Moses?

Probably your Nesh thingy...substitute worship...maybe why God hid the body...knowing what Israel would do with it!
Just a thought...

 

[bbyrd009]

Which proves that there was much written that we have never known about.

interesting to me that the Jude acct seems to quote Ot, yet the Ot ref is not there. These are literary devices imo, meant to cause one to look deeper, or differently, at a matter. "Where the body is, there the vultures are gathered" comes to mind, dunno if It is relevant though

Why a dispute about who could have access to the body of Moses?

Probably your Nesh thingy...substitute worship...maybe why God hid the body...knowing what Israel would do with it!
Just a thought...

mmm-hmm

 

[Jun2u]

Indubitably. Moses is clearly accounted as having died, there was dispute over the body, and clearly seen at the transfiguration. Though, I must question how they would have known it was "Moses and Eliyah".

I do leave open that at / in the transfiguration, it was not a body of "flesh".

Moses and Elijah lived centuries before the Transfiguration and there were no paintings of images done in those days, yet the Apostles recognized them as Moses and Elijah. They appeared in their spiritual glorified bodies as all believers become after death.

God must have performed some kind of miracle and opened their ¨spiritual eyes¨ to ¨see¨ so as to recognize it was Moses and Elijah.

Is there a spiritual lesson to be held in the Transfiguration? Most definitely! God must open our literal eyes so we can ¨see¨ the Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

Moses and Elijah lived centuries before the Transfiguration and there were no paintings of images done in those days, yet the Apostles recognized them as Moses and Elijah. They appeared in their spiritual glorified bodies as all believers become after death.

God must have performed some kind of miracle and opened their ¨spiritual eyes¨ to ¨see¨ so as to recognize it was Moses and Elijah.

Is there a spiritual lesson to be held in the Transfiguration? Most definitely! God must open our literal eyes so we can ¨see¨ the Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but, is not the first to resurrect in a glorified body is the Lord Jesus himself? so in the vision they couldn't have glorified bodies.

 

[Jun2u]

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but, is not the first to resurrect in a glorified body is the Lord Jesus himself? so in the vision they couldn't have glorified bodies.

If I understood your statement correctly, you are saying no born again Christian can have a glorified spiritual body after he dies, because Jesus has not gone to the cross as yet. To be absent from the body...However, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Likewise, He must have been resurrected before the foundation of the world or He could NOT have created the world.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

If I understood your statement correctly, you are saying no born again Christian can have a glorified spiritual body after he dies, because Jesus has not gone to the cross as yet. To be absent from the body...However, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Likewise, He must have been resurrected before the foundation of the world or He could NOT have created the world.

To God Be The Glory

have the resurrection at the time of the vision happen? no, glorified bodies are at the resurrection. if not please give scripture showing so. and to be absent from the body don't mean you get a glorified body.

 

[Richard_oti]

Moses and Elijah lived centuries before the Transfiguration and there were no paintings of images done in those days, yet the Apostles recognized them as Moses and Elijah. They appeared in their spiritual glorified bodies as all believers become after death.

God must have performed some kind of miracle and opened their ¨spiritual eyes¨ to ¨see¨ so as to recognize it was Moses and Elijah.

Exactly! Which is why I raised the question.

Is there a spiritual lesson to be held in the Transfiguration? Most definitely! God must open our literal eyes so we can ¨see¨ the Gospel.

Indeed.

 

[Richard_oti]

imo this seems to be assumed that that was after he had died, but i see no reason to not allow that "when he was alive" or "during his lifetime" is what was really meant. Moses was absent from the body after he died, so imo that passage is misinterpreted. We put meaning on physical death, and have closure rituals surrounding it, not God, to whom actual bodies are strictly vessels imo

(Jude 1:9) "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

yet no one can find the OT account of this anywhere, right. hmm

It is from "The Assumption of Moses". Just as Jude also cites 1 Enoch.

 

[Jun2u]

have the resurrection at the time of the vision happen? no, glorified bodies are at the resurrection. if not please give scripture showing so. and to be absent from the body don't mean you get a glorified body.

Yes, most definitely Jesus arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world. The Bible is replete with many such evidences. Unfortunately God did not give us any scripture reference.

If Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world then he must also have arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world. If Jesus did not arose then it would have been impossible for the Old Testament believers to become saved. They look forward to Jesus´ work of atonement while we look back to His work of atonement.

I've always Illustrated that the raising of Lazarus is a picture of salvation, likewise, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world is a picture of the reality of God's salvation program, or He could not have come to earth manifested in the flesh and there would be no remission of sins.

The only way to understand the resurrection of Jesus before the foundation of the world is by faith.

You can read about faith in Hebrews 11.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

Yes, most definitely Jesus arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world. The Bible is replete with many such evidences. Unfortunately God did not give us any scripture reference.

If Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world then he must also have arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world. If Jesus did not arose then it would have been impossible for the Old Testament believers to become saved. They look forward to Jesus´ work of atonement while we look back to His work of atonement.

I've always Illustrated that the raising of Lazarus is a picture of salvation, likewise, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world is a picture of the reality of God's salvation program, or He could not have come to earth manifested in the flesh and there would be no remission of sins.

The only way to understand the resurrection of Jesus before the foundation of the world is by faith.

You can read about faith in Hebrews 11.

To God Be The Glory

First thanks for the reply. but, I must disagree with some of your assessment.

#1. most definitely Jesus arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world
he died twice?, and resurrected twice?. I don't believe so. this is God fore knowledge of the things to come. so I cannot agree with that assessment.

#2. If Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world then he must also have arose and was resurrected before the foundation of the world. If Jesus did not arose then it would have been impossible for the Old Testament believers to become saved. They look forward to Jesus´ work of atonement while we look back to His work of atonement.
it would be impossible for Adam and Eve to sin, if the price was already paid. so that is eliminated.

#3. I've always Illustrated that the raising of Lazarus is a picture of salvation
true, that i can agree with. but a restored life is not a resurrected life, big difference.
the picture is correct, but just don't frame it.. ;).

#4. He could not have come to earth manifested in the flesh and there would be no remission of sins.
wait, hold it, STOP, if he was resurrected there is no more death. and there would be no reason to die for sin twice. listen all of this is God's fore knowledge.

#5. The only way to understand the resurrection of Jesus before the foundation of the world is by faith.
I disagree, the way to know is to read the bible. remember this is God fore knowledge. let me give you an example. THE BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE, or the book of LIFE. Malachi 3:16-18 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, (STOP, they shall be his?) in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, (this means to save), as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not". listen, if everything was set from the foundation then why is God making up his jewels? let's see one of these Jewels who was written in that book of remembrance. Acts 10:1-5 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. "And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter".

lets examine these verses, and compare them to Malachi 3:16-18.

#1. Malachi: Then they that feared the LORD.
Acts: one that feared God with all his house. Match

#2. Malachi: spake often one to another
Act: gave much alms to the people. Match

#3. Malachi: that thought upon his name
Acts: A devout man. Match

But here's the icing on the cake. the Hebrew word for "remembrance" in Malachi is the same word used in the Greek in Acts for "memorial".

using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
Malachi, remembrance: is the Hebrew word, H2146 זִכרוֹן zikrown (zik-rone') n-m.
a memento (or memorable thing, day or writing).
[from H2142]
KJV: memorial, record.
Root(s): H2142

There it is, plain as day, the book of remembrance in Malachi is that memorial that came up before God in act 10 concering Captain Cornelius and his household. those who fear the LORD/God, and spake often one to another, being devout. Malachi say God heard it. notice this was written in the OT, but acted upon by God in the NT. and Malachi said IN THAT DAY when, when, when he/God make up his jewels. that day is not set from the foundation of the world. see what I mean.

conclusion: not everything is set from the foundation. because God is still writing, and God is still making up his jewels. don't misunderstand me, there are something that are set, but not "EVERYTHING". this is exciting to me, because all thing are possible, and that "FAITH" as you mention.

hope this helped.

Peace in Christ Jesus

 

[bbyrd009]

It is from "The Assumption of Moses". Just as Jude also cites 1 Enoch.

exactly, yes, a point being that one is compelled to go outside of Canon for this, which i doubt was unintended

 

[amadeus]

Not sure I am able to tie it all together, but somewhere I heard that the body of Moses is the law God gave to Moses, which some call the old covenant while Elijah could represent the new covenant. The old covenant effectively comes back to my earlier idea that it was that the witnesses were the OT and the NT which is not quite the same but close.

There is a bit of disputing here on this forum with regard to the application of that old law or the body of Moses to people who follow Jesus today. The new covenant of course would be found in the Body of Christ. Jesus spoke to the two of them. Moses and Elijah, in the transfiguration as they need to be reconciled. This brings me to another OT verse:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26

The light of the moon is the OT and the light of the sun is the NT. Both lights are to increase beyond measure with it all comes together, the OT and NT, the old covenant and the new covenant, the binding up of the breach and healing of their wound.

To me this still remains an incomplete answer, but I believe we are on the approach.

 

[Richard_oti]

exactly, yes, a point being that one is compelled to go outside of Canon for this, which i doubt was unintended

We also have such as:

The Book of Jasher; Jos 10:13; 2 Sam 1:18.

The history of Nathan the Prophet
The histories of Shemaiah the Prophet
Iddo the Seer ; 2 Chr 9:29; 12:15; 13:22 ; 29:29

The Book of Gad the Seer; 1 Chr 29:29

The Chronicles of King Ahasuerus; Est 2:23; 6:1; 10:2; Neh 12:23.

The Annals of King David; 1 Chr 27:24.

The Sayings of the Seers; 2 Chr 33:19.

According to memory, within 2 Peter there are allusions unto 1 Enoch.

Whether it was intended or unintended, it is definitely there. I have read much of the "apocryphal" works. Not only have I read them, I have done side by side studies comparing various texts to see how they hold up to one another, and examined them to see how they hold up within themselves.

The "Book of Jubilees" for instance, is included in the Ethiopian Canon. However Jubilees does not hold up when compared to all other texts both canonical and "apocryphal". Nor does it hold up within itself, for it is rife with internal inconsistencies.

Jasher according to memory fared much better in both comparison and with regard to it's internal structure.

1 Enoch IMO is an interesting read. The latter portions as in 2 Enoch, especially regarding the calendar, are garbage from my perspective.

However, in conclusion, what is contained in the canon, particularly in what I shall call the "Catholic Canon", is enough IMO. It is my opinion, that the "Protestant Canon" removed at least a couple of the books that remain within the "Catholic Canon" in order to push forward certain "doctrines" / "agendas". Particularly with regard to "Prophecy". But, that is my opinion. And for certain reasons which I shall not currently disclose, I also place more weight upon the TaNaKh, than I do the other.

 

[Copperhead]

My idea of who they are probably is no better than anyone else's idea. Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration, and were recognized as such. Moses has generally been associated with the Torah or Law, and Elijah has generally been associated the prophets. Yeshua stated that the Torah and the Prophets testify of Him. I am not into some sort of reincarnation thing, but I think the two witnesses that on on the earth for the 2.5 years that Revelation lays out, like John the Baptist came in the spirit or calling of Elijah, the two witnesses will have the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah. They will perform similar feats that Moses and Elijah did during their time.