The Inquisitions

[pia]

@amadeus Yes, I have read quite a few accounts in the O.T. in relation to what they perceived as darkness and evil, and attributing much to God, as they as yet had no understanding of spirit......The above merely makes me think, that of course God knows what darkness is, but He certainly is not a partaker of it ( according to Him), nor can light and darkness co-exist in the same space, nor love/evil and on and on...there is a chasm between those two, because one has God in it.....The other is the void of God part......

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus Yes, I have read quite a few accounts in the O.T. in relation to what they perceived as darkness and evil, and attributing much to God, as they as yet had no understanding of spirit......The above merely makes me think, that of course God knows what darkness is, but He certainly is not a partaker of it ( according to Him), nor can light and darkness co-exist in the same space, nor love/evil and on and on...there is a chasm between those two, because one has God in it.....The other is the void of God part......

God is really everywhere, but what we are able to perceive depends on where we are in Him and what kind of vision we have. He can always see us, but sometimes because of where in are spiritually or carnally, we cannot see Him at all. We cannot remain in that place of darkness.

Solomon wrote the following words:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Prov 29:18

That verse relates directly to one penned by the Apostle Paul about 1,000 years later:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Jesus speaks of "eyes" in the following verses and refers back to another OT prophet:

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:14-16

And Jesus then tells us that a better vision is available in his time now than was available to even the men of God of earlier times:

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matt 13:17

 

[pia]

@amadeus ...Hi .....I would love to have a much deeper conversation with you about this, as it's not a 'quick fix' piece of understanding nor would I write it here....For one thing, it would be far too long...secondly, it's outside the institution of church and into the reality of God;..... two very different things......I hunger for revelation, whether direct of through other believers, always being mindful to get confirmation.......To even begin to comprehend any of God, it can only come from Him, as our finite minds cannot perceive the things of God, of spirit in general....I think we often forget that we were created as two part beings......spirits dressed in flesh......The flesh fell and through the remarkable work of Christ, now our spirit can instead be saved......I must say though, mostly I see Christians doing their level best to try to keep on saving their flesh, improving their flesh and so on, neglecting the things of God and The Spirit.....Sorry hadn't meant to get quite this 'heavy'.....Have a happy day

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus ...Hi .....I would love to have a much deeper conversation with you about this, as it's not a 'quick fix' piece of understanding nor would I write it here....For one thing, it would be far too long...secondly, it's outside the institution of church and into the reality of God;..... two very different things......I hunger for revelation, whether direct of through other believers, always being mindful to get confirmation.......To even begin to comprehend any of God, it can only come from Him, as our finite minds cannot perceive the things of God, of spirit in general....I think we often forget that we were created as two part beings......spirits dressed in flesh......The flesh fell and through the remarkable work of Christ, now our spirit can instead be saved......I must say though, mostly I see Christians doing their level best to try to keep on saving their flesh, improving their flesh and so on, neglecting the things of God and The Spirit.....Sorry hadn't meant to get quite this 'heavy'.....Have a happy day

See my PM...

 

[christiang]

Using these two sources, and any others submitted, I hope to get the facts of this "tormented phase in the history of the Church" (per Pope John Paul 11)(from CERC).



(1)This is a link to the Catholic Education Resource Center (CERC): Status: Inquisition in the Catholic Church
(2)Henry Charles Lea, The History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

From the CERC article: "...religious heresies were considered a kind of political treason."

"To remedy the disorganized response to heresy, Pope Gregory IX (1227-41) took on the task of bringing the investigation of heresy under the discipline of the Holy See. What we term the Inquisition is simply the ecclesiastical tribunal with specially appointed judges (inquisitors) answerable to both the local bishop and the pope, whose task it was to investigate charges of heresy in a systematic and fair way."


So, there were 3 "phases" of the Inquisition: Ecclesiastical Inquisition, Spanish Inquisition and Roman Inquisition.

Questions about torture, imprisonment, burning heretics, effect on family and friends of the heretic, and other punishments, such as wearing crosses for life, pilgrimages, forced into a crusade, floggings etc. are all appropriate in this discussion.

This was the time of persecution at the hand of the antichrist, which was the line of popes. The Identity of the Antichrist, the Two Beasts of Revelation, and the Whore of Babylon | Wisdom of God

 

[BreadOfLife]

You forgot to put in bold lettering A new earth

Because it has nothing to do with YOUR fallacy that Satan was in Heaven arguing with God about Job.

As I already showed you - Satan can't enter Heaven.
Nothing unclean can (Rev. 21:27).

 

[Helen]

@Triumph1300 @BreadOfLife

( response written to Triumph1300 )

Because it has nothing to do with YOUR fallacy that Satan was in Heaven arguing with God about Job.

As I already showed you - Satan can't enter Heaven.
Nothing unclean can (Rev. 21:27).

People talk all the time about "Heaven"...as if there is only one heaven...
So this depends of "which heaven" Satan was allowed into...I agree with BOL that for sure he was not trotting in and out of the Heaven of Heavens where God's throne is.

Just my two cents...

 

[Triumph1300]

I agree with BOL that for sure he was not trotting in and out of the Heaven of Heavens where God's throne is.

Nobody here said anything like that.

 

[epostle1]

This was the time of persecution at the hand of the antichrist, which was the line of popes. The Identity of the Antichrist, the Two Beasts of Revelation, and the Whore of Babylon | Wisdom of God

This is a lie. The Vatican does not sit on any of the 7 hills of Rome. One must cross the Tiber River to get to the 7 hills. This lie is a sure sign of a religious con artist, counting on ignorance and peoples inability to read maps.

Again, The Vatican (which did not exist until 1928) is not anywhere near any of the 7 hills of Rome.

Another major lie, which I will deal with later, is this absurd "United States of Europe", invented by fear mongering anti-Catholics, that has no basis in reality.

 

[christiang]

This is a lie. The Vatican does not sit on any of the 7 hills of Rome. One must cross the Tiber River to get to the 7 hills. This lie is a sure sign of a religious con artist, counting on ignorance and peoples inability to read maps.

Again, The Vatican (which did not exist until 1928) is not anywhere near any of the 7 hills of Rome.

Another major lie, which I will deal with later, is this absurd "United States of Europe", invented by fear mongering anti-Catholics, that has no basis in reality.

BAHA, such stupidity really cracks me up. Well, lets see, even if we don't accept Rome as the famous "city of seven hills" mentioned in Revelation because the hills are not in a perfect geometric radius from the Vatican down to the precise molecule, shall we shut our eyes and ignore the countless massacres and murders perpetrated by past Roman popes and emperors? Not to mention all the lies they speak that are clearly contrary to scripture.

 

[epostle1]

More lies, and false assertions with no evidence. The Protestant Inquisition was worse than anything Catholics allegedly have done, and unlike you, I've well documented it; and not sourced from a history "expert" like Christian Gaviria (a software engineer) who has an axe to grind against the Catholic Church.
If you are going to hold Catholicism accountable for errors of the past, have the guts to hold Protestantism accountable for the horrors of it's past, and stop persecuting Catholics today over things that supposedly happened over 1000 years ago.

I. PROTESTANT INTOLERANCE: AN INTRODUCTION AND OVERVIEW
II. PROTESTANT DIVISIONS AND MUTUAL ANIMOSITIES
III. PLUNDER AS AN AGENT OF RELIGIOUS REVOLUTION
IV. SYSTEMATIC SUPPRESSION OF CATHOLICISM
V. VIOLENT RADICALISM AND THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION
VI. DEATH AND TORTURE FOR CATHOLICS, PROTESTANT DISSIDENTS, AND JEWS
VII. PROTESTANT CENSORSHIP
BIBLIOGRAPHY
In Defense of the Church: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution by Dave Amstrong

That is a well documented treatise with quotations by Protestant and secular historians, so you cannot accuse me of doctrinal bias.

Ask James White himself if he would recommend that Roman Catholics read Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast for an accurate critique of the Catholic faith or Church history. James Akin of Catholic Answers has called the book "a joke" when specifically asked by Hank Hanegraaff about it on the Bible Answer Man (1995) with James White. There was no argument from either Hank or White on the point.
Dave Hunt's Shoddy Research on Catholicism (A Woman Rides the Beast)

Many modern fundamentalist Protestants are fascinated by eschatological prophecy. A healthy interest in such things comes with a realization that, for the vast majority of human beings, judgment will come (first) upon their death (the particular, as opposed to general, judgment), and keeping one's soul in a state of constant readiness to stand before the Lord is of foremost importance. Being obsessed with identifying the particular times and characters of Biblical end-times prophecy (and one should keep in mind that the proper interpretation of end times is the entire Church Age) is very often a sign of spiritual immaturity - an unhealthy fascination with sensationalism that has little in common with sanctification of the soul.
A Catholic Thinker - The Pope is the Antichrist?!
​

 

[christiang]

More lies, and false assertions with no evidence. The Protestant Inquisition was worse than anything Catholics allegedly have done, and unlike you, I've well documented it; and not sourced from a history "expert" like Christian Gaviria (a software engineer) who has an axe to grind against the Catholic Church.
If you are going to hold Catholicism accountable for errors of the past, have the guts to hold Protestantism accountable for the horrors of it's past, and stop persecuting Catholics today over things that supposedly happened over 1000 years ago.

I. PROTESTANT INTOLERANCE: AN INTRODUCTION AND OVERVIEW
II. PROTESTANT DIVISIONS AND MUTUAL ANIMOSITIES
III. PLUNDER AS AN AGENT OF RELIGIOUS REVOLUTION
IV. SYSTEMATIC SUPPRESSION OF CATHOLICISM
V. VIOLENT RADICALISM AND THE PROTESTANT REVOLUTION
VI. DEATH AND TORTURE FOR CATHOLICS, PROTESTANT DISSIDENTS, AND JEWS
VII. PROTESTANT CENSORSHIP
BIBLIOGRAPHY
In Defense of the Church: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution by Dave Amstrong

That is a well documented treatise with quotations by Protestant and secular historians, so you cannot accuse me of doctrinal bias.

Ask James White himself if he would recommend that Roman Catholics read Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast for an accurate critique of the Catholic faith or Church history. James Akin of Catholic Answers has called the book "a joke" when specifically asked by Hank Hanegraaff about it on the Bible Answer Man (1995) with James White. There was no argument from either Hank or White on the point.
Dave Hunt's Shoddy Research on Catholicism (A Woman Rides the Beast)

Many modern fundamentalist Protestants are fascinated by eschatological prophecy. A healthy interest in such things comes with a realization that, for the vast majority of human beings, judgment will come (first) upon their death (the particular, as opposed to general, judgment), and keeping one's soul in a state of constant readiness to stand before the Lord is of foremost importance. Being obsessed with identifying the particular times and characters of Biblical end-times prophecy (and one should keep in mind that the proper interpretation of end times is the entire Church Age) is very often a sign of spiritual immaturity - an unhealthy fascination with sensationalism that has little in common with sanctification of the soul.
A Catholic Thinker - The Pope is the Antichrist?!
​

So just because another sect has also committed murders it justifies the murders the catholic church has committed? HAHA. This goes to show that there is no denying the catholic church has blood on its hands, so people like you have to resort to pointing the finger at someone else to try to evade their guilt. Do not think for one moment the catholic church will not one day be held responsible for the blood they have shed, as well as any one else that has committed murders, AND as well as anyone that supports these institutions, like YOU,

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Revelation 18:4 [NKJV])

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God's holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
(Revelation 17:6 [NIV])

 

[Triumph1300]

In a troubling new open letter to the media, the redoubtable Cardinal Joseph Zen, China’s highest ranking Catholic prelate, has accused the Vatican of “selling out” the Church by caving in to demands of the Communist leaders.



Link here:


China’s highest-ranking cardinal claims Vatican is ‘selling out’ to communist government - TheChristians.com Web Journal

 

[BreadOfLife]

So just because another sect has also committed murders it justifies the murders the catholic church has committed? HAHA. This goes to show that there is no denying the catholic church has blood on its hands, so people like you have to resort to pointing the finger at someone else to try to evade their guilt. Do not think for one moment the catholic church will not one day be held responsible for the blood they have shed, as well as any one else that has committed murders, AND as well as anyone that supports these institutions, like YOU,

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Revelation 18:4 [NKJV])

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God's holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
(Revelation 17:6 [NIV])

Such outrageous Scriptural and historical ignorance - it's difficult to know where to begin . . .

This "Whore of Babylon" nonsense has been abandoned by almost every credible Protestant scholar because they realize that it is Jerusalem - and NOT the Catholic Church that is being referred to in these passages.

Matt. 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Good grief - crack open a Bible once in a while . . .

 

[epostle1]

In a troubling new open letter to the media, the redoubtable Cardinal Joseph Zen, China’s highest ranking Catholic prelate, has accused the Vatican of “selling out” the Church by caving in to demands of the Communist leaders.
Link here:
China’s highest-ranking cardinal claims Vatican is ‘selling out’ to communist government - TheChristians.com Web Journal

Greg Burke, Director of the Holy See Press Office, has denied recent allegations of the Pope and Vatican’s treatment of the Catholic Church in China.

Yesterday, Cardinal Joseph Zen, Emeritus of Hong Kong, at the end of a Facebook post yesterday, Jan. 29, 2018, wrote: “So, do I think that the Vatican is selling out the Catholic Church in China? Yes, definitely, if they go in the direction which is obvious from all what they are doing in recent years and months.”

Today, the Vatican spokesman responded with a statement denouncing the widespread news on a presumed difference of thought and action between the Holy Father and his collaborators in the Roman Curia on issues relating to China.

***In the statement, Greg Burke rebukes those words, explaining: “The Pope is in constant contact with his collaborators, in particular in the Secretariat of State, on Chinese issues, and is informed by them faithfully and in detail on the situation of the Catholic Church in China and on the steps in the dialogue in progress between the Holy See and the People’s Republic of China, which he follows with special attention.
BREAKING: Greg Burke Denies Allegations by Cardinal Zen About Pope & Vatican’s Treatment of China – ZENIT – English

***
What Cardinal Zen told Pope Francis about the Church in China
Hong Kong, China, Jan 29, 2018 / 07:00 pm (CNA).- Cardinal Joseph Zen of Hong Kong has said proposals aimed at reconciling the Catholic Church in China and the government-backed Patriotic Catholic Association so concerned him that he traveled to Rome for a personal meeting with Pope Francis.

He said that he found the meeting to be consoling.

“I was rather disorderly in my talking, but I think I succeeded to convey to the Holy Father the worries of his faithful children in China,” the cardinal and archbishop emeritus of Hong Kong, recounted in a Jan. 29 letter. The letter was translated to English and posted to his blog.

According to Cardinal Zen, the Pope told him “Yes, I told them [his collaborators in the Holy See] not to create another Mindszenty case!”

Cardinal Josef Mindszenty was the Archbishop of Budapest and suffered persecution and imprisonment under Hungary’s communist government. He was released during the 1956 uprising and took refuge in the U.S. Embassy as Soviet forces restored communist control.
What Cardinal Zen told Pope Francis about the Church in China

What Triumph refuses to understand is the media is satan's mouthpiece and is at war with the Church. He also ignores persecution Catholic bishops have endured at the hands of communists.

Cardinal Zen allegedly wrote on a face book blog:
Yes, definitely, if they go in the direction which is obvious from all what they are doing in recent years and months.”
And what is that direction in recent years and months, Triumph? What would an anti-Catholic care?

 

[epostle1]

So just because another sect has also committed murders it justifies the murders the catholic church has committed? HAHA. This goes to show that there is no denying the catholic church has blood on its hands, so people like you have to resort to pointing the finger at someone else to try to evade their guilt. Do not think for one moment the catholic church will not one day be held responsible for the blood they have shed, as well as any one else that has committed murders, AND as well as anyone that supports these institutions, like YOU,

For the second time, provide historical scholarly evidence of all these murders. Stop stop denying the martyrdom of the first 40 popes. SANE people don't blame others for deaths that occurred 1000+ years ago. BIG NEWS: No Catholic today supports unjust executions, but you want to keep the stake fires hot 'n ready.

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Revelation 18:4 [NKJV])

Your hate cult keeps saying there were no Catholics when John wrote Revelation, so what is the purpose of this quote? It applies to the Jews to become Christians, it does not apply to Catholics to abandon their faith who were already risking their lives. Your theology is sick, your knowledge of early church history is non-existent.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God's holy people

, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
(Revelation 17:6 [NIV])

Yea, but you can't give names of any of the martyrs. You have perverted the Scriptures to support a psychotic agenda.

 

[mjrhealth]

For the second time, provide historical scholarly evidence of all these murders. Stop stop denying the martyrdom of the first 40 popes. SANE people don't blame others for deaths that occurred 1000+ years ago. BIG NEWS: No Catholic today supports unjust executions, but you want to keep the stake fires hot 'n ready.

Your hate cult keeps saying there were no Catholics when John wrote Revelation, so what is the purpose of this quote? It applies to the Jews to become Christians, it does not apply to Catholics to abandon their faith who were already risking their lives. Your theology is sick, your knowledge of early church history is non-existent.


Yea, but you can't give names of any of the martyrs. You have perverted the Scriptures to support a psychotic agenda.

Popes Martyred, from what I rad some where killed by there own church, all those "innocent" men women and children jews and christians forced to join at point of death, God wont forget what teh "churches" of this world have done, and they will not be forgiven. This is what happens with men who get religious and need to defend there idols. Wont go away just because you hate teh truth..

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[junobet]

Such outrageous Scriptural and historical ignorance - it's difficult to know where to begin . . .

This "Whore of Babylon" nonsense has been abandoned by almost every credible Protestant scholar because they realize that it is Jerusalem - and NOT the Catholic Church that is being referred to in these passages.

Matt. 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Good grief - crack open a Bible once in a while . . .

Erm ...

To think of the Roman Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon is indeed somewhat outdated, at least in my part of the Protestant world. Thank God for that!

But as far as I remember almost every credible Protestant scholar thinks that Babylon in the Book of Revelation is a code for the Roman Empire and that the innocent blood that was drunk is that shed by the Roman emperor Diocletian during the great persecution. Just saying.

 

[mjrhealth]

And where is the church, in Rome...

 

[epostle1]

Popes Martyred, from what I rad some where killed by there own church, all those "innocent" men women and children jews and christians forced to join at point of death, God wont forget what teh "churches" of this world have done, and they will not be forgiven. This is what happens with men who get religious and need to defend there idols. Wont go away just because you hate teh truth..

You read somewhere? This is unsubstantiated hate speech. Forced conversions have been forbidden since the 3rd century before it was even possible, they never have been recognized by the the Church. Run along now and invent some new lie.

The fact that so many popes have been martyred demolishes the phony claims of psychotic anti-Catholic bigots, so you are forced to undermine history with lies.